Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Public Discussion » Public Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 07/24/10, 10:44 AM   #9241
Halibell
Von Kaiser
 
Halibell's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Gorefiend
Originally Posted by Kaejin View Post
I think the most important thing that his is showing us is that the newly risen Forsaken are joining Sylvanas of their own free will. Maybe to betray her when they get the chance, maybe not. It seems that the Val'kyr using "Charm" on the new recruits is kind of misleading at the least.
Another option is that she starts charming undead after this event, since this takes place before WPL.

This should explain some things Imageshack - storyline.jpg

Last edited by Halibell : 07/24/10 at 10:50 AM.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 07/24/10, 11:56 AM   #9242
Kaejin
Great Tiger
 
Kaejin's Avatar
 
Troll Death Knight
 
Mal'Ganis
That definitely helps refine Sylvanas' character and clears up a lot. Releasing Lorna is actually kind of surprising. I wouldn't call it merciful since she was the one who had her kidnapped in the first place, but it's most certainly not the cruelest thing she could have done.

On second thought, considering what she could have done, it probably does qualify as merciful. It reduces casualties on both sides which is something I doubt most people would have thought she would do.

We also know what the story for Shadowfang is now! I'd almost forgotten about that.

Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 07/24/10, 5:30 PM   #9243
Emeraude
Bald Bull
 
Emeraude's Avatar
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Sargeras
Originally Posted by Ukerric View Post
It might be construed as a (un)subtle reminder that we're not dealing with gods/godlike characters here. That, as big a figure as they are, they can be stabbed in the back by any assassin - if he can get into the right position, at the right moment.

That seems to be a new theme in Cataclysm. Thrall seems to be abducted by a bunch of SI:7 op unknowns (I doubt they're using legendary well-known heroes as covert ops), for instance.
Well I played through the Goblin starting area again(8th time now? I've lost count), the quest dialog says that they found Thrall unconscious on the beach and then placed him in a magical cage, which a mage was containing him in when you find him.

Also I'm slightly confused about the new SFK, it makes sense obviously to set it up, but I'm not entirely clear on whether the Worgen there are enemies to the Alliance, or was it all Forsaken traitors that fled there? Dammit I need to play Silverpine

And to answer somebody's question earlier about Stratholome, the Argent Crusade/Brotherhood of the Light/Agent Dawn, whoever the hell those guys are, only show up after you kill the last boss of each side, and they aren't there next-playthrough.

What is the most important thing to you? Won't you grant me the pleasure of taking it away.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 07/24/10, 6:49 PM   #9244
Duilliath
Great Tiger
 
Duilliath's Avatar
 
Duilliath
Night Elf Druid
 
No WoW Account (EU)
Just how many times -are- they going to recycle that "I see... only darkness" line?

Interesting note: "It will destroy us, sister". Yet chain-raising new Forsaken apparently goes effortlessly.

Ignorance can be solved with a book. Stupidity requires a shotgun and a shovel.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 07/24/10, 7:17 PM   #9245
Tinwhisker
Bald Bull
 
Tinwhisker's Avatar
 
Dwarf Rogue
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by Emeraude View Post
Also I'm slightly confused about the new SFK, it makes sense obviously to set it up, but I'm not entirely clear on whether the Worgen there are enemies to the Alliance, or was it all Forsaken traitors that fled there? Dammit I need to play Silverpine
I thought those Worgen had gone too far feral.


United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 07/25/10, 12:52 AM   #9246
Kaejin
Great Tiger
 
Kaejin's Avatar
 
Troll Death Knight
 
Mal'Ganis
@Duilliath: I expect it has to do with either the fact that Sylvanas is who they formed "the pact" with, or that Sylvanas is a Banshee/already undead.

I don't believe we've ever seen the Val'kyr raise the undead back into undeath before. We know little about both the nature of undeath and the nature of the Val'kyr (which likely has to do with whatever that pact is), so those reasons seem like good candidates since they seemed to be able to raise just about everything else under the sun pretty effortlessly.

Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 07/25/10, 8:13 AM   #9247
Arzja
Glass Joe
 
Arzja's Avatar
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Shadowsong (EU)
Originally Posted by Kaejin View Post
@Duilliath: I expect it has to do with either the fact that Sylvanas is who they formed "the pact" with, or that Sylvanas is a Banshee/already undead.

I don't believe we've ever seen the Val'kyr raise the undead back into undeath before. We know little about both the nature of undeath and the nature of the Val'kyr (which likely has to do with whatever that pact is), so those reasons seem like good candidates since they seemed to be able to raise just about everything else under the sun pretty effortlessly.


Looking at this quest it seems it's just humans under the sun though. We've seen non human undead before but Arthas had Frostmourne so he did have access to their souls.

Also, going back to the control over the Forsaken thing. Cromush' desperate "Fix her...FIX HER!" made me think that maybe she does excert some control over them though. Maybe just subtle influences rather than full blown mind control. Because if she didn't then surely they could just put someone else in charge.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 07/25/10, 8:55 AM   #9248
Roop
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Turalyon (EU)
Originally Posted by Arzja View Post
Because if she didn't then surely they could just put someone else in charge.
That would raise an interesting question; if it was not her, then who else would they "Vote in"? There are a handful of some note worthy people that could conduct the role, but none that really have the wow factor of status that Sylvanas has at the moment. So is it more that they follow her due to this weak form of mind control, or because nothing better has came along to challenge her leadership of the forsaken?

edited/ I speeelz gud!

Last edited by Roop : 07/25/10 at 9:36 AM.

Great Britain Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 07/25/10, 10:48 AM   #9249
Ratek
Banned
 
Troll Shaman
 
Runetotem (EU)
Originally Posted by Kaejin View Post
I don't believe we've ever seen the Val'kyr raise the undead back into undeath before.
ICC, the charge towards the big Val'kyr on the way to Valithera. She ressurrects Captain Rupert. Hillarious by himself I might add, I rather love him. So the destruction of the Val'kyrs has to do with Sylvanas herself. But that fact that they do so, willingly, and after contious deliberation, makes it interesting. I still don't like the event one bit, but it does present some other venues of interest.
But I'm with Roop on the leadership. While the Forsaken could get Nathanos Blightcaller to step up, he would be pretty unknown to a lot of players, and potentially a lot of NPCs too. It would take a lot of time for him to take over, and he is even the best candidate. Cromush is cclearly aware of the heavy push the Forsaken are doing, and it seems like most of it is down to the rule of Sylvanas. She is all over the place, directing, guiding and ordering. Without her the Forsaken would lose a lot of control. Without her the Alliance could retake the initiative, then the Orcs and Kalimdor Horde would have to step in, losing precious resources there.
It's fairly understandable that he would freak out. And one can't ignore the possibility that Garrosh left him to not only report on her, but also act as a bodyguard. It would reflect rather poorly on him if she died right next him while he did nothing. Orcs and their sense of honour.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 07/25/10, 11:23 AM   #9250
Kaejin
Great Tiger
 
Kaejin's Avatar
 
Troll Death Knight
 
Mal'Ganis
Sylvanas is an extremely good military leader (former Ranger General of Silvermoon) as well as extremely charismatic. I doubt you would be able to easily find someone as effective at leading the Forsaken as her. Not only that, but finding and installing a new leader would cost valuable time and any logistics information Sylvanas had would need to be relayed to the new leader, taking even more time.

Replacing her is hard enough already, but trying to do it in the middle of a war would be pretty crippling. I doubt this is lost on Garrosh or Cromush. They don't have to like her or what she does, but her death would be... well, cataclysmic.


So after watching the Silverpine quest line on YouTube, I saw that it was implied pretty heavily that only humans can be raised as Forsaken. I wonder if this has to do with humans being descendants of the Vrykul and therefore having a connection with the Val'kyr. Sister Svalna in ICC raising the various Argent Crusade captains could just be for game play or it may just be a retcon. Maybe it doesn't have anything to do with the Val'kyr at all, or maybe Svalna was just a particularly powerful Val'kyr.

Last edited by Kaejin : 07/25/10 at 4:59 PM. Reason: added stuff about val'kyr

Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 07/25/10, 6:14 PM   #9251
Charmin
Piston Honda
 
Charmin's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Shadowmoon
Originally Posted by Kaejin View Post
Sylvanas is an extremely good military leader (former Ranger General of Silvermoon) as well as extremely charismatic. I doubt you would be able to easily find someone as effective at leading the Forsaken as her. Not only that, but finding and installing a new leader would cost valuable time and any logistics information Sylvanas had would need to be relayed to the new leader, taking even more time.

Replacing her is hard enough already, but trying to do it in the middle of a war would be pretty crippling. I doubt this is lost on Garrosh or Cromush. They don't have to like her or what she does, but her death would be... well, cataclysmic.
I literally just played through and finished what is available to play in Silverpine, and I agree, Sylvannas death would cause a huge uproar among the Forsaken that could not be easily remedied. Cromush's plea to the Val'kyrs seems pretty desperate (not desperate pathetic, but desperate). It's silly, but I hope Sylvannas ends up with an eye patch, that would just be too good. I mean she did pretty much take a muzzle blast right to the back of the head, and yet she gets to keep her pretty little face?

I was kind of disappointed the story stopped there. I assume it will be picked back up in SFK and Hillsbrad, but it was really enjoyable to play through.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 07/25/10, 6:31 PM   #9252
Ratek
Banned
 
Troll Shaman
 
Runetotem (EU)
That there isn't really any replacement makes her death rather meh. Ressurections are essentially something extremely rare. Which could be the problem for the Val'kyr, they don't exactly ressurect people, they bring them back as undead. Thus getting Sylvanas back as she was is against their 'nature', they basically corrupt the body (and mind?) when they do their thing.
Anyway, resurrections are decidedly rare in lore, when people die, they generally stay dead. Thus it is cheap thing to use it on a relatively minor quest many, if not most, will never see. Add in the 'kick in the balls for no good reason' and I really dislike it. They could have achieved everything they wanted with less. Cannon meet sparrow...

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 07/25/10, 7:39 PM   #9253
Axanor
Don Flamenco
 
Axanor's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Area 52
The no-human rule really seems to be so they don't have the "why aren't their tauren zombies" question. Just a lore workaround to a mechanical problem.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 07/25/10, 10:19 PM   #9254
Leviathon
Great Tiger
 
Worgen Druid
 
Blade's Edge
Originally Posted by Kaejin View Post
Sylvanas is an extremely good military leader (former Ranger General of Silvermoon) as well as extremely charismatic. I doubt you would be able to easily find someone as effective at leading the Forsaken as her. Not only that, but finding and installing a new leader would cost valuable time and any logistics information Sylvanas had would need to be relayed to the new leader, taking even more time.

Replacing her is hard enough already, but trying to do it in the middle of a war would be pretty crippling. I doubt this is lost on Garrosh or Cromush. They don't have to like her or what she does, but her death would be... well, cataclysmic.


So after watching the Silverpine quest line on YouTube, I saw that it was implied pretty heavily that only humans can be raised as Forsaken. I wonder if this has to do with humans being descendants of the Vrykul and therefore having a connection with the Val'kyr. Sister Svalna in ICC raising the various Argent Crusade captains could just be for game play or it may just be a retcon. Maybe it doesn't have anything to do with the Val'kyr at all, or maybe Svalna was just a particularly powerful Val'kyr.
You end up seeing Crowley telling the Hillsbrad refugees that being a Worgen prevents the Val'kyrs from raising them and he ends up giving them his blood to transform.

Originally Posted by Axanor View Post
The no-human rule really seems to be so they don't have the "why aren't their tauren zombies" question. Just a lore workaround to a mechanical problem.
It makes sense lorewise also since humans at least came from the Vrykul and once a human turns into a Worgen they are no longer human.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 07/26/10, 1:28 AM   #9255
dustdog
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Arthas
Svalna's power may be unique to her. Whether or not the event ends up being considered canon also needs to be taken into consideration. There's also that when resurrected, they have blue eyes, ala death knights. It's a fine line between regular scourge undeath and that of a death knight, but weak arguements exist in many storylines.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Public Discussion » Public Discussion

Thread Tools