World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 657

MizarAlcor · 10/26/10, 5:12 AM

Originally Posted by Kirion

Neptulon is very much evil being. It's just that we chose to side him over naga or Ragnaros. I doubt that we will kill him before next expansion. However we don't really know his true agenda.

The lingering thought that there is supposed to be an Abyssal Maw raid is probably from the rumor regarding the caster legendary, which was rumored (or stated?) to be part of Neptulon's weapon. As we have experienced, "tier 1 legendary" usually came from the second or third major content patch of an expansion.

Bullshot · 10/26/10, 5:19 AM

Originally Posted by Kirion

Neptulon is very much evil being. It's just that we chose to side him over naga or Ragnaros. I doubt that we will kill him before next expansion. However we don't really know his true agenda.

I doubt he can be considered as "evil" in the true sense of the word. His nature is chaotic as is every other elemental lord's, and it just so happens that sometimes it is beneficial to us and at other times, it's not. The exact same thing can be said about Ragnaros, except we haven't seen much of his beneficial side since Neptulon hasn't attempted to destroy the world in the scale that Ragnaros has tried doing (except against the Zandalari tribe ages ago?)

I'm not exactly sure what to make of Metzen's comment about Thrall in that Q&A session. Was he hinting that Thrall will become the new Aspect of the Earth, or that he will play the role of kingmaker in helping the dragons cleanse the position and install a new Aspect? Whatever they choose to do, I hope it isn't handled with the rashness that the "there must always be a Lich King" concept was in Wrath.

Bierzkrieg · 10/26/10, 6:07 AM

Neptulon's said to be the most powerful of the elemental lords. Also, the scheming one, hence why he's more likely to look like a nice guy. Like Kirion said, though, he's pretty much evil. Unlike the Stonemother - and even she is pretty harsh, as seen in the Deepholme questlines - he has no feelings of protection or caring. He'll probably help us (helping him) while it serves his purposes.

Nathanyel · 10/26/10, 6:55 AM

No Abyssal Maw raid, but a 5man - so that rather contradicts we'll oppose Neptulon there. Even just an event to make him flee sounds weird, as that would be the very opposite of the Throne of the Tides dungeon finale.

Neptulon may not be "good" and rather chaotic, but he's not "evil" either. While he certainly didn't (and won't) care for the mortal races, he may grow to tolerate them more, especially if the mortals/the shamans decide to not close the connections between Azeroth and the Abyssal Maw, granting him more influence over Azeroth' seas again.
Like Therazane, after the 4.1 5man, he will of course say something like "well thanks for the help mortals, but now gtfo of my domain" and maybe impose the elemental equivalent of tolls on 'secure' seafaring, but he also won't outright attack either faction of the mortals (unless provoked)

Closing thought: Those tolls would not be like the sacrifices of the antique, but instead, inspired by the goblins' way of treating their elemental 'associates', be more like modern protection money - watery wise guys, doesn't that sound awesome?

Bierzkrieg · 10/26/10, 7:47 AM

Therazane has always been known as an overall gentle soul, and she is so darn-diddly-mad about what's happened to her domain that she nearly gets our troops squashed on the spot.

Neptulon is - last time I saw - an ever-schemer. From a storytelling point of view, having us help someone only for him to betray us will make us look stupid, but it has happened - Drakuru.

I'm not a fan of the"he's not evil, just being chaotic" reasoning. These aren't mutually exclusive characteristics. Chaotic means that, in the middle of his schemes, a villain might simply turn against one his allies or a bystander who poses no threat - and for no reason other than satisfy bloodlust. Ragnaros is such a being, as is Deathwing. Neptulon, not so much, he's a calculistic stone-cold villain. And yes, should he perceive that "Once these mortals are done with the Naga, they'll turn on me or at least hinder my Kvaldir forces and prevent me from making my move", he'd kill five little whelps in no time.

Or, Blizzard will just alter their lore for him, but right now, he's sadistic.

Neptulon - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

dustdog · 10/26/10, 8:13 AM

We've sided with Neptulon before aswell, for Molten Core. Even if short-lived, an "alliance" with Neptulon makes sense.

Typically speaking fire and air go hand in hand, as does water and earth, I hope that, atleast for the near future, that it stays as such. If Azshara ends up being the next big boss, Neptulon being considered a good guy should be a lock unless they spin something storyline-wise.

edit - Was Al'akir allied with Ragnaros at all (and is he now?)? After saying air and fire go hand in hand, it made me think about Ragnaros eating Thunderaan. WoWWiki says during the elemental sundering Geddon and Garr betrayed Thunderaan, allowing Ragnaros to have his way with him. This would imply that fire and air were allied, even though the elemental plane typically had all of them fighting each other. I suppose it could be chalked up to WoWWiki having some misinterpretation, but the whole elemental world and their relationships are already confusing, so what's another layer?

Kaejin · 10/26/10, 8:17 AM

I really doubt we'll be raiding Neptulon any time during Cata. WE still have a Queen Azshara expansion to go, which I think would benefit from his presence as a major figure (friendly or hostile) more than Cata would.

Also, as he may be a schemer and the most evil of the Elemental Lords, that hardly means that he seeks the destruction of either faction.

Furthermore, Therazane's kindness hardly means she's benevolent to all. She's kind and gentle to her allies. Her allies are other earth elementals and residents of Deepholm (with quite a few exceptions, to boot). The player is extended her kindness because of the help you provide and because it's heavily stressed you are not part of the Earthen Ring.

If mortals can benefit the Elemental Lords then they're not likely to do away with them on a whim... well, unless you're Ragnaros. Neptulon most of all would use the approach of exhausting the use of the mortal races before doing anything to turn them against him. While the naga and Azshara are still a threat I very much doubt he'll throw away such useful pawns until he's absolutely certain they're of no more value. Consequently, the Old Gods may be on his list as well considering Ozumat was one of their minions and the attempts made to defile his realm.

Cybsled · 10/26/10, 8:30 AM

Well they could also be using the traditional "elements represents your temperament" idea

Ragnaros:Fire (Anger, Destructive, Power)
Neptulon:Water (Adaptable, Patient, Cold...pragmatic if you will)
Therazane:Earth (Steadfast, Reliable, Strong)

A water elemental being adaptable to a situation is almost a given...it will explore ways to adapt to fit the given situation. The other thing to remember about water is that it is patient. Even the greatest mountain will eventually be worn down by countless drops of water over the eons.

Exemplar · 10/26/10, 9:00 AM

Originally Posted by dustdog

If Azshara ends up being the next big boss, Neptulon being considered a good guy should be a lock unless they spin something storyline-wise.

I would disagree. Pulling an ally out of Blizzard's collective ass is easy. They created the Argents and the Ebon and we were fine - they didn't need intensive backstory or build-up to understand and accept. Villains are far more difficult. How many times have we complained about Joe Nameless villain suddenly propping up a 5man or a raid?

If you have a developed character with a tendency for things that don't mesh well with everyone else then you have a good choice for a villain that the players can understand and enjoy defeating. Good storytelling would be two villains (Azshara and Neptulon) trying to use us as agents. Why fight the Alliance/Horde and your enemy, when you could send the Alliance/Horde against your enemy, then mop up the survivor? "I've become a good guy, because they're sooooo bad" is rather boring.

However, until he does something objectionable (working together on some quests sounds decidedly less than evil), can we stop calling people and things "evil?" Evil is supposed to be morally objectionable. Arthas was evil - he performed morally objectionable acts. Sylvanus is evil if you're not Forsaken, and a champion of the people if you are. Hell, we can technically classify the Titans as evil, since re-origination is rather morally objectionable to all living on Azeroth. Evil regards objectionable behaviour and actions - this is subjective.

Neptulon is trying to defend his demesne, so of course we're perfectly justified to invade his home, kick over the furniture, kill the family pet, and take his treasures, because he's "evil." Wait, what? Let's wait for him to do something unpleasant before we call him evil. His wowwiki entry just makes him sound like A) he likes a challenge, B) he's probably prideful and C) he laughs at silly rumours. So far I'm hearing in Cata we've aided him and he's aided us - so why does it logically follow that he's evil?

Nathanyel · 10/26/10, 9:10 AM

I'm not saying Neptulon won't become a liability - he already is, and as an elemental lord, always was. If it came (which it won't) to an official alliance between the mortal factions (as opposed to just us adventurers) and him they would know that, but accept it as the lesser evil for the time being. But an armistice for a longer period of time isn't that unrealistic.
"Chaotic" may be a badly-chosen word as most people think of D&D here, I meant it more in the way that Neptulon is less likely than Therazane to ally with others, or even respect others' laws/opinions, but may do so temporarily under the given circumstances:

Naga trying to subdue him, having largely taking over Azeroth' waters and even threatening his very plane
Ragnaros and Al'Akir allying with Deathwing
possibly Old Gods behind Deathwing, thus a possible return to the ancient line of command, elemental lords under the xenophotics

Either way, I'd say Neptulon is opposed to being someone else's pawn, like Therazane, but for other reasons, and thus may ally with lesser ones, as those currently pose no threat due to lack of power or fear (and he will surely emphasize the reasons for that fear from time to time given the chance)

On the elemental lords'/the elements' relations, it surely isn't pair-wise, more like a (very loose) circular one: fire-air-water-earth-fire, but as dustdog already noticed himself, the example of Thunderaan proves that those relations are easily discarded.
Different elementals might work together under a common master, but given free choice, they rather battle against any other element than ally with it.

Bierzkrieg · 10/26/10, 10:14 AM

@Exemplar: According to Wowwiki - RPG book, most likely - Neptulon is responsible for a great deal of sunken ships. And he does that out of cruelty, of course, since neither Horde nor Alliance have invaded the depths. Elemental lords are driven by a desire to overcome each other and they overlook no means to achieve their goals. So, we have a selfish motive - conquest and personal power - and a disregard of consequences...isn't that evil? For them, we're probably like wildlife in their paths, but being "above" the mortal races makes for little excuse. Neptulon and Ragnaros, at least, are known to enjoy bringing destruction and pain to the lesser beings for no valid reason. Ragnaros is a pyromaniac and Neptulon is, well, the cold, scary cruelty of the seas. So we can call them driven. But not good or regular folk.

Monocle · 10/26/10, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Liebestod

It's only a vague impression, and even if true Blizzard might have scrapped the plans, but my impression is that there IS supposed to be an Abyssal Mar 1-shot raid at some point, presumably against Neptulon.

Yeah the Firelands info we got this year was pretty much of a recap of what was said last year about it. We got to see the same map and concept art, with the one new addition being the sketch. We didn't even get to see any models related to the place. I'm not expecting to hear any more info on this patch, and what else it contains, till February at the earliest.

It does make me wonder what raid #2 could be. Any ideas?

Bierzkrieg · 10/26/10, 11:44 AM

Some people mention War of the Ancients. It's hardly related to Cataclysm, but it would be a capital opportunity to know more about the Infinites and, specifically, Nozdormu's involvement with them.

The Caverns of Time: WotA raid has been confirmed by Blizzard. Still, it may turn out to be Cataclysm's Azjol Nerub =(.

My other guess would be something underwater-related. Neptulon...Azjhara...nah, the girl's been scratched. Might be a Naga bastion of sorts, with Neptulon interfering/supporting us.

I'm all for WotA, but it feels like an outsider and the last time we had one of those, it wasted an awesome character and villain: Anub'Arak. So if Blizzard needs to hammer WotA even one bit, they might as well start working on the Naga idea - as far as I'm concerned, of course.

MizarAlcor · 10/26/10, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg

Some people mention War of the Ancients. It's hardly related to Cataclysm, but it would be a capital opportunity to know more about the Infinites and, specifically, Nozdormu's involvement with them.

The Caverns of Time: WotA raid has been confirmed by Blizzard. Still, it may turn out to be Cataclysm's Azjol Nerub =(.

Even if they do push for WotA, there is a chance that it might be just another Hyjal, in that it is purely intended to give players unexperienced with the expanded universe a taste of the documented lore. This basically boils down again to whether Blizzard intends for the Infinites to be a major part of the grand lore (as evidenced by the Dragonblight quest) or just another sidegrade-villain-group (as evidenced by Hyjal and CoT).

Saying that WotA isn't that connected to Cataclysm isn't really correct, IMO. WotA is, after all, one of the biggest involvements of the dragonflights in Azerothian history (besides AQ). There is quite an opportunity for plot awesomeness for the Infinite's meddling, ranging from the Highborne's master plan up to the Dragon Soul creation and misuse. In fact, seeing that Deathwing was one of the major player in WotA arc, having that story arc invoked in another expansion post-Deathwing's death might feel "lame" to the majority of the playerbase. However, I can also see why they will want to hesitate throwing another "major villain" story arc to the players in one expansion that is already loaded with bad dragons and bad Old God(s).

Blayze · 10/26/10, 1:13 PM

If Blizzard were trying to portray the Infinites as something other than moustache-twirling Dick Dastardlies to be thwarted at every turn, as they presumably tried to do with the Culling of Stratholme, one of the Infinites' goals in the WotA could be preventing the Blue Dragonflight from being decimated.

If done well, the Infinites could come across as being a lot more sympathetic than the Bronzes, and perhaps even make many of the past!Bronzes decide to do more than just undo changes to the timeline and actually try to use their powers for good--thus resulting in the creation of the Infinites in the first place.