World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 658

Nuke1096 · 10/26/10, 1:36 PM

Well I think it's pretty apparent they plan to bring back Nozdormu at some point this expansion. With all the talk they were saying about bringing the family back together and the aspects playing a big role in the Deathwing encounter and what not. I would imagine they will accomplish that during the War of the Ancients Raid. How I'm not sure yet, nor to what extend the Infinites will play a part.

Danath · 10/26/10, 2:45 PM

Originally Posted by Tinwhisker

I'm not saying it's a bad storyline or anything like that but realistically, we've been headed this way for a while; you only have to look at the statue outside Blizzard HQ to see it. Oh, and don't forget that Thrall is also an alien from a dead/dying world.

Originally Posted by Cybsled

The thing to remember is that Thrall is a very long lived concept/character. He had his own game (Warcraft Adenvtures, which got canceled), he was a strong focus in WC3, and obviously he is a central figure in WoW. Also factor in he has had a healthy number of novels that involve him and he's basically Metzen's unofficial avatar more or less. While Malfurion was a major character in WC3, he has been mostly MIA in WoW save for a "ghost" cameo during a quest in TBC and he is only truly returning in this expansion.

Besides, while Malfurion is Mr. Nature, the druid's realm is mostly life. Shamans, on the other hand, are mostly elements. Obviously they overlap in many regards, but I've always viewed their specialty fields as such and they have been more or less demonstrated as such in the lore/game. If there are problems in a forest, the druid is going to ask the trees and animals, while a shaman will ask the rocks, water, and air.

Exactly what I'm saying...All indications point to the fact that, to put it simply, Blizzard and specifically Metzen favored the Horde and particularly orcs, especially Thrall. Yes, he had all of this stuff but it doesn't justify this final "elevation", to be honest. Becoming an Aspect? A mortal from another planet? Seriously...Another Black Dragonflight member should just step up, ala Kalecgos for the Blues.

As for the fight, obviously Thrall should play a key role along Malfurion. But as it seems right now, Malfurion will be mostly helping in Hyjal against the elemental invasion....

Originally Posted by Liebestod

So as I understand:

4.1 - Firelands / Abyssal Maw 5-man
4.2 - WotA / ??? 5-man
4.3 and beyond - ???

Obviously there's the Temple of Earth Deathwing raid, but there'll also be an Uldum raid and possibly an Abyssal Maw raid?

It's odd that this is the most Old God-influenced expansion so far, yet it doesn't seem like we'll face off against Ni'Zoth or any other Old God during the Cataclysm cycle. My guess is that we'll see the Emerald Dream and South Seas combined into the next expansion and have Ni'Zoth as... the last Old God? Surely there will be more? Who knows.

Blizzard said clearly at Blizzcon that Deathwing will either be in 4.2 or 4.3; which probably means, either (4.2) Deathwing is discovered to be the puppet of that Old God which then shows (in 4.3 or 4.4), or we will have as few content patches as in Wotlk.

Halibell · 10/26/10, 3:48 PM

I think that Thrall will temporarily channel the Earth Warder's power in the fight against Deathwing and then afterwards the uncorrupted black dragon will become the new earth aspect. Makes sense from the badlands quests.

ildon · 10/26/10, 5:07 PM

Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg

@Exemplar: According to Wowwiki - RPG book, most likely - Neptulon is responsible for a great deal of sunken ships. And he does that out of cruelty, of course, since neither Horde nor Alliance have invaded the depths. Elemental lords are driven by a desire to overcome each other and they overlook no means to achieve their goals. So, we have a selfish motive - conquest and personal power - and a disregard of consequences...isn't that evil? For them, we're probably like wildlife in their paths, but being "above" the mortal races makes for little excuse. Neptulon and Ragnaros, at least, are known to enjoy bringing destruction and pain to the lesser beings for no valid reason. Ragnaros is a pyromaniac and Neptulon is, well, the cold, scary cruelty of the seas. So we can call them driven. But not good or regular folk.

Neptulon is (obviously) modeled after the Greek/Roman myth of Poseidon/Neptune. Poseidon messed with mortals, sunk ships, took petty revenge, etc. all the time but still was generally not considered an "evil" god. He also provided fish for people to eat, a relatively quick mode of travel, etc. It's just that he was a representation of the sea, and the sea could be both bountiful and cruel.

Reading the Wowwiki/RPG description of Neptulon just sounds to me like a copy/paste of Poseidon and nothing more. Neptulon is complex, and doesn't necessarily acknowledge mortal lives as having any worth. That doesn't make him inherently evil. Dangerous and untrustworthy? Sure, but not pure evil.

Bullshot · 10/27/10, 2:59 AM

So I was watching the Lore Q&A Panel from Blizzcon 2010 and am now of the opinion that Alexstrasza will die at the end of this expansion.

The panel was asked if we'd ever take down Alexstrasza and Metzen's reply was (excerpts follow): "A careful way to answer that question is...", "when we combat Deathwing, the Aspects will have to get involved. It will be their greatest and most terrible hour. They will perform the function for which they were created", "Deathwing is so gnarly, how do you defeat something that is undefeatable? Can he be defeated by any martial means? How will the family pull this off?"

Alexstrasza already tried to combat Deathwing in the Twilight Highlands and failed to take him down. She also told Calen that he will have to take over her responsibilities should anything happen to her, meaning that the right of succession has already been decided unlike the blue flight when Malygos was killed. Blizzard has also made Deathwing call himself the Aspect of Death now. So, just like the "there must always be a Lich King" concept that was implemented in Wrath, I think a concept of "Life and death are inexorably linked. If one must die, so must the other" will be implemented and Alexstrasza will sacrifice herself against Deathwing so that we can deliver the final blow. Maybe the magnitude of life energy released upon her death will "cleanse" Deathwing's Old God corruption for a short while when he is actually defeatable by martial means (sounds like the last burn phase in the Deathwing encounter, doesn't it?)

So yeah, I don't know if I'll look back at this post two years from now and wonder "what the hell was I thinking," but right now I do think that at the end of this expansion, the current Queen of Life will be no more.

Tyrian · 10/27/10, 4:29 AM

I think a concept of "Life and death are inexorably linked. If one must die, so must the other" will be implemented and Alexstrasza will sacrifice herself against Deathwing so that we can deliver the final blow

Interesting theory. It makes thematic sense. However, Alexstrasza dying would be quite sad and confronting. Not only is she the Dragon Queen, Aspect of Life - but also one of the greatest forces of good left in the world. What a grim world Azeroth will become without some of the brightest guiding lights for us mere mortals. I'd like to see Elune step more directly into this role someday, even though its never been her nature to reveal herself or get involved in mortal affairs. Perhaps it would take something such as the dissolution of the Aspects, for her to change this stance.

Despite my distaste of the thought of Alexstrazsa dying, it would indeed make for a fitting way to culminate / close the Deathwing story.

Bierzkrieg · 10/27/10, 5:33 AM

@ildon: I disagree on this. While I can understand that he's not exactly a psycopath, you said it yourself he's dangerous and untrustworthy. I'll add cruel and capricious (almost child-like, as befits divine beings), as well as a schemer.

Again, he's not bloodthirsty to the point of it being impossible to strike a deal with him, or that doing so means you'll get stabbed for no reason. He'll have a reason when he does it. You might just not know what it is.

Barring oblivious and easily-forgetting folks, if a friend of mine or someone I know is untrustworthy, that doesn't mean he can likely be found cooking kids at the kindergarten. But it sure means he's got some pretty lousy attitudes. Will I consider him evil? Not comic-book evil, of course, but his attitudes will be evil, and if he often has those attitudes...

On Alextrasza dying...well, nice to know my death-wishes aren't getting worse. I don't feel like the Red Lady needs to die. To me, her incapacity to solve Azeroth's troubles (keep in mind she's the goddamned Aspect of Life) functions as a sort of shit-o-meter for this world. And she's a nice character, tender and rough when she needs to be.

That said, I think her death can be well done, and the sentimental crater it will leaver can be a lore asset. Let's hope this Calen is up to the job, though.

Tinwhisker · 10/27/10, 8:37 AM

"They will perform the function for which they were created" implies that the Titans created this master plan for the dragon flights. Following this path you have to assume this has something to do with the old gods. Somebody mentioned earlier that 5 aspects and 5 old gods had a kind of symmetry.

Now this is going to sound crazy, but since the old gods can't be killed directly (or the Titans would have done it) maybe they can be killed indirectly or have their ties to the planet broken so they can be killed safely. We know that the old gods bound themselves to the planet, intertwining their fates. What if the Titans did the same with the aspects? The aspects are each "bound" to some part of Azeroth, and in turn, to each of the old gods. What if killing an aspect is such a shock to the planet that it breaks the corresponding bond to the old god as well?

You can draw all kinds of wild conclusions from that concerning Nozdormu and the Infinites.

Exemplar · 10/27/10, 8:41 AM

Bierzkreig - being mean does not not equal being evil. Neptulon may be a selfish, ornery, confrontational son of a bitch (but he might not). This does not automatically make him evil. You're equating evil with objectionable. Some guy on tightly packed public transportation that smells like limburger cheese - is he evil? If he smells that way every single day, is he evil?

Evil is one end of a morality scale. You are assigning this attribute because Neptulon has sunk ships and murder is morally objectionable, therefore evil. However, Neptulon could easily argue trespassing and similar, which puts morality on his side. Again, just because they're not nice doesn't automatically drive evilness.

Like Neptune, I would assign him more human characteristics and say he's overall neither good, nor evil, but he probably has his moments of sheer demonicness, along with those of tender angelic care.

Now Deathwing is evil in the same way as Kael'thas was - insanity. The sort of evil for evil's sake insanity. Sane and evil people at least think they're doing the right thing for their own reasons. I would say the Twilight Cultists likely fall in this category (evil, but with reasonable motivations), while their leadership probably leans to the crazy end of things (as such things often go).

Bierzkrieg · 10/27/10, 10:58 AM

I'm calling a "truce" on the Neptulon subject. Morality issues will drag, especially if we're talking about a warfare context.

Tinwhisker, your theory has a match:

BlizzCon 2010: Quests and lore panel highlights

Nice article, even if it's ripe with speculation. It makes some sense, Aspects seem to be at the same power level as individual Old Gods, while having a different bag of tricks.

This theory - that killing Old Gods has dire consequences on the planet's balance, since the bitches have pretty much taken root to Azeroth - makes me think about Vaccine's "hunch" that we'll be leaving Azeroth in Warcraft 4. It'd be strange to just "let the Old Gods have it".

kalbear · 10/27/10, 11:02 AM

I think from the point of view of the mortal races Neptulon is most assuredly evil. He wants his own power, he's cruel and selfish, cares nothing about the lives of mortals and openly manipulates them and anyone else he can to further his own agenda. Neptulon could argue all sorts of things, but at the end of the day the morality scale is simply owned by the mortal races - and that makes him evil.

I mean, you could make the same argument for the Old Gods (they're gods of chaos and destruction - of COURSE they'd want people to go insane and destroy stuff!) or Kael'thas (sure, he's summoned demons and tried to slurp up all the power in the nether, but he was doing it for his people) or Kil'jaeden (he's just doing his master's bidding and trying to bring his version of morality to Azeroth). Good villains should hopefully have their own reasons for doing things besides' mwahaha'. That doesn't make them not evil.

AJAlkaline · 10/27/10, 3:42 PM

Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg

I'm calling a "truce" on the Neptulon subject. Morality issues will drag, especially if we're talking about a warfare context.

Tinwhisker, your theory has a match:

BlizzCon 2010: Quests and lore panel highlights

Nice article, even if it's ripe with speculation. It makes some sense, Aspects seem to be at the same power level as individual Old Gods, while having a different bag of tricks.

This theory - that killing Old Gods has dire consequences on the planet's balance, since the bitches have pretty much taken root to Azeroth - makes me think about Vaccine's "hunch" that we'll be leaving Azeroth in Warcraft 4. It'd be strange to just "let the Old Gods have it".

This is actually a really neat idea to me. Why not have the old gods win? Then all of Azeroth will be forced to evacuate through portals to another world and relocate. It would allow them to create some really cool new environments and storyline.

Then later the storyline could come back to Azeroth and have you visit an entirely old god corrupted world, allowing you to see all of the old world locations after they've been infested by old god corruption.

kalbear · 10/27/10, 3:50 PM

Another nice aspect of the Azerothian disapora is the notion of turning the humans into the invading 'orcs' of another universe's people. It would be a nice dichotomy to force Jaina and Varian to be the leaders of an invasion group into a world unsuspecting.

Kirion · 10/27/10, 6:11 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

Bierzkreig - being mean does not not equal being evil. Neptulon may be a selfish, ornery, confrontational son of a bitch (but he might not). This does not automatically make him evil. You're equating evil with objectionable. Some guy on tightly packed public transportation that smells like limburger cheese - is he evil? If he smells that way every single day, is he evil?

Evil is one end of a morality scale. You are assigning this attribute because Neptulon has sunk ships and murder is morally objectionable, therefore evil. However, Neptulon could easily argue trespassing and similar, which puts morality on his side. Again, just because they're not nice doesn't automatically drive evilness.

Like Neptune, I would assign him more human characteristics and say he's overall neither good, nor evil, but he probably has his moments of sheer demonicness, along with those of tender angelic care.

Now Deathwing is evil in the same way as Kael'thas was - insanity. The sort of evil for evil's sake insanity. Sane and evil people at least think they're doing the right thing for their own reasons. I would say the Twilight Cultists likely fall in this category (evil, but with reasonable motivations), while their leadership probably leans to the crazy end of things (as such things often go).

Elemental lords were the most trusted servants of the Old Gods, that's why they labeled as evil. Funny thing is, in RPG Neptulon is the only lord with evil alignment. Even Ragnaros is chaotic neutral. Now obviously Al'Alakir and Ragnaros are still serving Old Gods, Therazane aren't and as for Neptulon - well, that's complicated. Are Azshara still fond of Burning Legion or she is serving only Old Gods now? Who is the mastermind behind attack on Neptulon's realm: Twilight Hammer or Nagas (Old Gods removing unfaithful servant or Azshara in quest of gaining power of water lord, thus removing annoying obstacle)?

As for Old Gods plan, think one more time. Azeroth essentially is their prison. Twilight Hammer seek to destroy world, so we can't "let the Old Gods have it" - that would be pointless.

Ashen · 10/27/10, 6:15 PM

Is there a force out there that could reassemble a planet? Or create a time warp by which Azeroth could continue to exist but in some version of history, the Old Gods manage to destroy it?