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11/24/10, 3:09 AM
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#9961
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Piston Honda
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So is >this< casual racism, him having problems adapting or both? Being a minority in game and out, seeing something like this isn't new/surprising, but I think it's the first time I've been quite annoyed by it from in-game content. Pre-loaded text or not, seeing something like that is a bit of a downer heh.
The Draenei have experienced this problem before, with having their services in Borean Tundra not being put to use due to the town's leaders claiming the civilians would feel ill at ease due to their "exotic" appearance/accent/personality/whatever. I kind of hope they do something with this sometime down the line, preferrably positive, it would go well with all the bullying that's in the media these days. Political agenda's in a game seems like a real big no-no though.
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11/24/10, 4:10 AM
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#9962
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Piston Honda
Night Elf Death Knight
Kael'thas (EU)
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I guess you could call that racism, but then again, look at the context: most humans already find it hard to really accept the elves, and all of a sudden, an alien race literally crashed in. They acted friendly, joined in, but honestly, I can understand if some found them creepy; they also tend to look very much like the Eredar, which are less than friendly, so you end up with a mesh of "looks weird so I'm scared + looks kind of like giant monsters that tried to suck our souls so I'm definitely scared = keep away from me".
As for the worgen, same thing: it's hard not to understand your average human when he says he's having a hard time accepting people who can just turn into a wolf-man at the drop of a hat - especially when most humans equate worgen with "those bloody monsters running rampant just south of our capital city"
So yes, it is racism, in a way, but honestly this can hardly come as a surprise.
Last edited by Belegûr : 11/24/10 at 4:11 AM.
Reason: Darn space bar!
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11/24/10, 7:54 AM
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#9963
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King Hippo
Orc Warrior
Burning Steppes (EU)
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There's nothing political about this, it's pure "human" nature at play. People already tend to be suspicious of different races. If said races were once evil or connected to something evil, it gets worse.
Most "main" races fought together in the Third War, so humans could be allies with orcs, by now. Racism is an integral part of fantasy settings. Dwarves hating Elves in Lord of the Rings, for example. It provides character interaction and reinforces redemption, later on, and is based on wars or some significant tradition or belief by the races. It usually has nothing to do with real life's racism which is sometimes born out of pure cruelty. Actually, when that happens in fantasy settings, it's usually by the bad guys.
I, for one, appreciate it if correctly applied. What would the Horde be if everyone was confortable with the walking corpses or trusted elves blindly?
And look at Night Elves. They're very racist, believe humans eat bananas every other meal, yet they regard Worgen with respect (and as their responsibility).
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"Do you see what you get, Carla? Do you see what you get when you mess with the Warrior?"
Turk
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11/24/10, 9:01 AM
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#9964
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Von Kaiser
Tauren Warrior
Runetotem (EU)
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I agree that a general sense of racism does go through several of the races. In the case presented I don't think it really is. The Humans have had a pretty bad experience with new races overall. When the Draenei landed the previous guys to step onto the lawn were the Horde, and that didn't go too well. The Night Elves didn't exactly act all that friendly when encountered, and the Humans were well aware that they only allied out of convenience. Heck even the 'old' High Elves were an unpleasant factor for the Humans.
What that has told them is that it is better to close the door and be friendly with your own kind, and remain at a distance to those on the outside. But Humans are pragmatists as well, so both the Nelves and Draenei were welcomed because they each had strengths that were useable. But being friends? In 200 years perhaps.
So Humans are quite sceptic about pretty much anyone that aren't Human (the Dwarves and Gnomes are slightly more positive since they have pledged 100% support in several wars, and lets face it, they look a lot more Human than the others). Thus when Worgens appear many Humans will revert to their old fears, especially given the problems Bierz present. Can Humans trust the Worgen to not suddenly turn on them like their feral brethren? Obviously they can, but they don't know that.
In time they will trust them, and any lingering doubts or fears will fade. So in a sense Human fears are merely a product of their experiences, and should slowly give way to friendship. If it had been real racism, the guy would have mentioned something like using the Worgen for some poor job etc, since that was all they would be good for anyway. Like sendingthem to guard/work the farms or something equally silly. Instead he eyes them suspiciously but still sends potential heroes their way to help them. To me that sounds like a guy that has his heart at the right place honestly.
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11/24/10, 10:24 AM
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#9965
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King Hippo
Orc Warrior
Burning Steppes (EU)
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Great point, 26th, on the officer's heart being in the right place. With the Draenei it's purely a matter of looks, since once they open their mouths, goodiness and love spill right out. They're probably the kindest race around - actually, the two largest races are the best chaps one can find among both major factions. Still, while these new Draenei are presumably more modest in their accomplishments and less power-hungry, they're still the same race that went suddendly red and horned.
Worgen present another problem: they do get a shot of Sentientizium so they don't rip their comrades in half but the fact, is no one knows if that's permanent. Also, Gilneans behaved like lvl 90 jackasses when they left the Alliance and retreated behind their walls. Now they come back and basically behave like orcs.
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"Do you see what you get, Carla? Do you see what you get when you mess with the Warrior?"
Turk
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11/24/10, 11:27 AM
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#9966
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Bald Bull
Human Paladin
Scarlet Crusade
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This individual guard doesn't seem overtly racist. Xenophobic, but not racist. The reaction isn't "Worgen are less than me", it's "Keep those things away from me. I don't care if they're equal, but they're scary different." The Xenophobia has justifiable grounds, as stated - the Humans have had some bad relations with new arrivals more than once.
However, racism, like many wars, is a circular issue. Recall Warcraft III. The Blood Elves only became soured on the humans because they were pushed around by someone who was clearly racist. Given crap jobs, told they're second class, then kicked around without rewards when they succeed. This colours Blood Elf reaction to humans, and is part of the reason they joined the Horde, instead.
So, Blood Elves had a bad experience with a racist human. Behaving like good citizens, they paint all humans with the same brush - all humans are racist bastards. Thus they're fully justified in treating humans like trash in return - effectively preemptive attack. So Blood Elves would treat all humans in a racist fashion. Humans would react poorly to this. Humans then treat Blood Elves like trash... and so on.
Effectively, in the end whole societies can act racist or with warlike tendencies towards other societies because "we've always done it that way."
Yes, it's a broad generalization. There will always be individuals who step outside the generic societal viewpoints. Sometimes enough of them, or ones with good enough public speaking skills to change general opinion. But normally this is a long time in coming.
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Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
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11/24/10, 12:00 PM
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#9967
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King Hippo
Orc Warrior
Burning Steppes (EU)
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It's worth noting, though, that humans are still viewed as the most diplomatic of all races in Warcraft, even though a good deal of other races are much "friendlier".
1 - Tauren gladly ally with others to battle a common goal. This is probably due to the fact that they've been on the brink of extinction and therefore know how to prioritize in difficult situations.
2 - Gnomes are a friendly bunch, but their minds are permanently on Hyper-Mode, making down-to-earth conversation difficult.
3 - Draenei are nice people, end of story. They don't trust orcs, but neither do they seem hellbent on killing them all.
4 - For all their love fer a good brawl and a good ale, Dwarves are good folk, and they hold few grudges with anyone else. And they wholeheartedly commit. But they may not be the best at diplomacy if a few things need to be properly discussed. Half and hour into the meeting they'd be rushing for the bar. I exaggerate, but there's no denying they're straight-to-the-point, down-to-earth (actually, under it - sorry...) people. A bit too much. I think an alliance between orcs and dwarves would be a beautiful thing.
So, how do humans get such a good reputation? Well, they're experts at taking the lead in what needs to be done (especially now that Varian's back) and they have them ambassadors, experts at talking the talk everyone wants to hear. With Thrall, orcs have also developed a greater sense of diplomacy and ambassadorship - just look at the guy in Wyrmrest, he must've done a hell of a job to even be within the temple area and not inside one of the red's belly.
Last edited by Bierzkrieg : 11/24/10 at 12:35 PM.
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"Do you see what you get, Carla? Do you see what you get when you mess with the Warrior?"
Turk
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11/24/10, 2:20 PM
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#9968
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Von Kaiser
Tauren Warrior
Runetotem (EU)
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Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg
So, how do humans get such a good reputation? Well, they're experts at taking the lead in what needs to be done (especially now that Varian's back) and they have them ambassadors, experts at talking the talk everyone wants to hear. With Thrall, orcs have also developed a greater sense of diplomacy and ambassadorship - just look at the guy in Wyrmrest, he must've done a hell of a job to even be within the temple area and not inside one of the red's belly.
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Humans are also the most devious. Not evil, but they are damn good at creating convoluted paths that the other races can't really follow. So they are good diplomats, not because they are good at putting the other races at ease, but because they can take charge of any diplomatic discussion. In the end any treaty or similar is commanded by the Humans. This is repeated time and again, not with those words, but suspiciously often things end up with Humans in charge and with them getting a great deal out of it. And the other races standing around afterwards wondering what the heck just happened (High Elves and magic for Humans).
Incidentally that is exactly what high diplomacy is often about. Yup, diplomacy isn't being nice, it is being ruthless and cunning. And my guess is that the Gnomes, if they put their mental might to it would be awesome in diplomacy, but they just can't seem to focus long enough. Same deal with the Goblins, but they at least are great merchants, making them perfect for getting the best possible deal out of any diplomatic discussion. Too bad for them, they are pretty weak as a faction and have little weight to throw around, they might very well have gotten the very best deal possible for them at this time.
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11/25/10, 3:44 AM
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#9969
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Piston Honda
Troll Rogue
Moonglade (EU)
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It's not the first time we have seen racism from human NPC's in wow, I think in Honour Hold there was a guard complaining about all these purple reinforcements regarding night elves, and of course we have seen racism in the other direction also.
I think it's just humanoid nature, very few sentient races accept the arrival of newcomers with open arms and non concerns. It would strike me as odder if the worgen were accepted unquestioningly by the masses after all even if they were humans the Gilneans did kind of leave the Loradaeron alliance hanging with the whole 2nd war thing. Obviously from the Commanders and faction leaders we expect more diplomacy and an ability to think strategically and see the bigger picture (note expect) but to any alliance soldier who survived the second war and what followed, they may remember Gilneas as the kingdom who turned it's back on the alliance.
"What's that you say? The untrustworthy bunch of turncoats from Gilneas has resurfaced? And they are werewolves now? Well invite them in and I'll put the kettle on"
A little pessimism and distrust is frankly understandable
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11/25/10, 6:22 AM
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#9970
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King Hippo
Orc Warrior
Burning Steppes (EU)
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And, frankly, it shouldn't stop at initial distrust. The inclusion of Worgen has the potential to carry on and even worsen this xenophobia - in a good way. At last year's Blizzcon, a developer said Worgen would be the Alliance's "Wolverines". Of course, it's not like the Alliance is all clean kills. Night Elves, in particular, can be a savage lot. But, overall, the faction doesn't deal too well with savagery.
Cue Worgen biting, clawing and ripping their way through the Alliance's enemies, and getting to blows with some Alliance officers due to their volatile nature - and they're Gilneans, so they should be aloof and not get along with other humans on the best of terms. On that note, why is Greymane being such a good man? Not just in the "do the right thing" way, either. He's a nice guy, all of a sudden, and even after his son dies...Until now, we've only interacted with him from a Gilnean point of view, so that might explain the warmness. Even so, he could be more rough.
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"Do you see what you get, Carla? Do you see what you get when you mess with the Warrior?"
Turk
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11/25/10, 9:33 AM
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#9971
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Von Kaiser
Tauren Warrior
Runetotem (EU)
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Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg
On that note, why is Greymane being such a good man? Not just in the "do the right thing" way, either. He's a nice guy, all of a sudden, and even after his son dies...Until now, we've only interacted with him from a Gilnean point of view, so that might explain the warmness. Even so, he could be more rough.
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That is something I have wondered too. Every little bit of lore there was about him prior to the Beta suggested a profusely proud man, with a stick up his posterior and a fetish for insults. Then again, he was like that because he claimed he would not waste his country's people in futile actions etc. He was being like that for Gilneas. However, a man that loves his people and country doesn't need to be nice anyway. Most likely he is still a rough and tumble person.
I always thought of Greymane as a sort of sailor to the nobility of the other kingdoms, with all the implied differences. Iti s unfortunate that it seems unlikely that we will see a direct confrontation between Greymane and Varian. It would be most interesting to watch. Both being like they are (if it ended with them being all goodie and pats on the backs it would most certainly suck).
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11/25/10, 11:55 AM
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#9972
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Great Tiger
Troll Death Knight
Mal'Ganis
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So far he seems kind of like a throw-away do-nothing like Velen and Lor'themar (Gallywix is even worse, he isn't even in-game after Kezan). It's really kind of disappointing so far and I hope they do a lot more with the two of them as Cata progresses. The potential of Graymane clashing with Varian is too good to pass up considering no one else does, and Gallywix... nobody even likes him, so something (anything) has to happen with him. He either needs to turn into the faction leader that everybody loves to hate (instead of "that jerk you see in the goblin starting area") or replaced along the lines somehow.
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Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh.
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11/25/10, 1:21 PM
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#9973
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Bald Bull
Night Elf Warrior
Sargeras
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In Beta you were supposed to become the new Trade Prince/Princess, alas. :p
It would have been nice if we could have put Sassy Hardwrench in the position though.
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What is the most important thing to you? Won't you grant me the pleasure of taking it away.
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11/25/10, 3:30 PM
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#9974
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Great Tiger
Troll Death Knight
Mal'Ganis
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Yeah, I followed all of that closely since having someone like Gallywix in charge really just didn't make any sense. I'm most surprised that he's completely absent in-game currently.
Hopefully there's some meaning to that (someone killed him) and it's not just an oversight.
I might be getting my hopes up here, but maybe he's gone because they're making a last minute change to the goblin quest-line to make someone else the Trade Prince at the end. :p
Last edited by Kaejin : 11/25/10 at 3:36 PM.
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Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh.
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11/25/10, 6:08 PM
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#9975
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Von Kaiser
Tauren Warrior
Runetotem (EU)
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Originally Posted by Kaejin
So far he seems kind of like a throw-away do-nothing like Velen and Lor'themar (Gallywix is even worse, he isn't even in-game after Kezan). It's really kind of disappointing so far and I hope they do a lot more with the two of them as Cata progresses. The potential of Graymane clashing with Varian is too good to pass up considering no one else does, and Gallywix... nobody even likes him, so something (anything) has to happen with him. He either needs to turn into the faction leader that everybody loves to hate (instead of "that jerk you see in the goblin starting area") or replaced along the lines somehow.
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Greymane has so much potential, not just for himself, but for all of the Alliance politics. Velen getting pushed around is not a surprise, the Nelves not so much, and the new rule in Ironforge (the entire mess with the Varian attack leads to many possible endings) can easily be made more independant and of course Mekkatorque, now a free ruler himself should be invigorated (and his speeches does hint at him being more of a 'man' now).
Thus Greymane taking the lead in standing up to Varian could be the spark needed for most of the other leaders joining in. And then the Alliance can get as interesting, possibly even more, politics than the Horde. Being a Hordie myself I feel a sort of 'meh' coming on when I think of Alliance politics compared to the immense Horde shuffle.
And most importantly it could explain the percieved weakness the Alliance suffer from at this time. While I understand it can easily be other stuff, it shouldn't be the job of the player to think up obscure reasons for something as important as that. It should be hinted at pretty clearly. And we have to remember, perception is often more important than realities.
Gallywix, not much can really be said about him. And that is honestly his problem. We don't know anything about him, save his greed. The other leaders, less Lor'themar Theron, are mentioned and related to as people level, some more than others of course. But so far I see nothing in later zones relating to the Goblin politics, so it seems it all stops at the border out of Aszhara. That doesn't help one bit.
I'm hoping that somewhere, somehow we are going back to Aszhara and ask for his assistance, he then loudly proclaim that he will do so, but we slowly figure out he isn't doing much. Go back and find him siphoning off huge amount of funds and resources for personal gains. Garrosh finds out and litterally nails him to the door (and wins massive amounts of player respect in the process). I dislike Garrosh, even now, but I would find such and action fitting to his style (RAAARRR) and not be somewhat forced like the Stonetalon event.
After that, getting a cool and competent Sassy as Trade Princess should go over as a really popular move. Her style is actually not really represented among the Horde leaders. They are mostly benevolent guides, or hotheads rushing in. A ruler that isn't standing out at the frontlines nor sitting at some throne holding court would be awesome (thinking of her throneroom being a corner office like place with her deep at work with papers etc).
Last edited by 26thraider : 11/25/10 at 6:14 PM.
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