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Old 11/26/10, 5:22 PM   #9976
Camaris
Piston Honda
 
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Human Paladin
 
Kul Tiras (EU)
So one thing that I'm confused about in the new world.. what is the Alliance actually doing in the Barrens? Northwatch (which I think falls under Theramore's rule?) is being particularly ruthless in its attack on Kalimdor. From this quest, it seems like Northwatch was the first to breach the treaty with Jaina.

I've just started on the Alliance side of things in the Southern Barrens, and they are really going for total control of the Barrens, or probably Kalimdor at large.. but I don't really know why. I'm assuming Wrynn somehow overruled Jaina and took full control of Theramore and its forces?

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Old 11/26/10, 6:06 PM   #9977
Rorus Raz
Von Kaiser
 
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Troll Druid
 
Ravenholdt
The shattering has led to very limited resources. It could be reasoned that, in this post-shattering environment, Theramore has become more dependent on trade from Stormwind. That would certainly put pressure on Jaina when Varian starts requesting military action.

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Old 11/27/10, 11:31 AM   #9978
Belegûr
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Death Knight
 
Kael'thas (EU)
Let's forget outside pressure for a minute. Does Jaina have any leverage or authority to disobey a direct order from Varian? As far as I'm concerned, she acknowledges him as her king (cf. right after DBS in ICC: "I'm just proud of my king"), meaning that if Varian says "we go to war", she goes to war, whether she likes it or not - either that, or it's high treason.

Now, she's proven in the past that she is ready to resort to very brutal measures to preserve peace, but that was in a time when there was no superior authority to reign everyone in. Now Varian is here - and very strongly there too - I don't see her going rebel on him. Oh, she'll disagree, but her ways would rather be, if I had to guess, porting to the Keep, telling him she disagrees, explaining why so, drawing him a chart proving he's wrong, and eventually bowing to his will when he says he's doing it, period.

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Old 11/27/10, 12:40 PM   #9979
26thraider
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Runetotem (EU)
Varian didn't really have to order her into line. He could just show up at her harbour and say "either we do this with you or without you. Either way the troops will come from Theramore and it doesn't matter that it is actually Stormwind troops."

And looking at the numbers involved, from Northwatch troops in Durotar (they are actually doing pretty much a pincer down there) to the steam tanks clogging up the road out of Theramore, it is pretty clear that Jaina can't have supplied all that.

So it doesn't really matter if she joined in or not, the actions still point at her. And she would know that, but without Thrall hanging about in Durotar, there would be no way for her to be able to negotiate a seperate truce. She is in, orders or no orders, willing or not. But are there no quests where she says just a little bit?

By the way, I remember readin back some time ago about that quest from the Goblins regarding Thrall where you give an SI:7 badge to Garrosh, that there are indications that Thrall and Garrosh aren't entirely friendly anymore. But there were as good explainations stemming from other roots. However, in one of the last quest areas in Durotar you do a few quests for a couple guys in a hut near the Org gates. A brutish Orc named Gor the Enforcer and a wise old Shaman. The Shaman basically shows you that being rash, but lazy is not the way in the quest The Wolf and the Kodo. Rather you should think and consider things, unlike what Gor does. Gor however is extremely scornful at this thinking, and says "Ignore the shaman, soldier. Certain powers-that-be within the Horde demand that I keep him with me, but I assure you, that Thrall-loving farseer truly sees no farther than the borders of this hut."
Much love for Thrall is evident. Clearly Thrall's star among the 'new' aristocracy, the Warriors, is waning significantly, to the point that being a Thrall-lover is a bad thing. After the quest is finished he goes on to say:
"See? The shaman's tales are nothing but that... a youngling's bedtime stories. The new Horde takes what it wants, and doesn't waste time with such frivolity. If you get a chance, I recommend you tell Shin... and those like him... not to waste any more of your time."
The new Horde... does he mean the new new Horde? As in Garrosh's Horde?

Personally he reminded me of Krenna and Agmar from Northrend. But that had more to do with his general attitude and his callous disregard towards the player in not telling him/her that the Thunder Lizards they are supposed to tether up discharges electricity (under water mind you). When you return alive he dismisses the danger more or less.

The big question is if this is Garrosh's doing, or if perhaps Thrall had noticed this shift and understood that the rising power from the warriors meant it would be better that he himself retired and they got a leader they looked up to instead. The latter might be the truth seeing as Gor the Enforced says he is forced to keep the elder Shaman with him, clearly against his will. Obviously he wouldn't obey a senior Shaman (since that is basically what the shaman is), so the only logical conclusion is that it is either Garrosh or perhaps Eitrigg that has made the demand.

Given that in this case Gor is 'vindicated' and his approach turn out to be for the better, I think we can see a return to this little story. Perhaps a reference, perhaps relatives to the two handing out quests elsewhere. Or perhaps it is an attempt by Blizzard to say that Thrall was basically wrong in his way of handling things? But the name of the quest, which is Ignore the Warnings, points in the other direction.

Last edited by 26thraider : 11/27/10 at 12:49 PM.

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Old 11/27/10, 3:11 PM   #9980
Starfire
Honorary Toastr
 
Night Elf Priest
 
Dragonblight
Sorry to interrupt this little discussion on politics.

I just wanted to share something I noticed. It seems Blizzard did a little throwback to the days of Race-specific-Priest spells. Going through the level 20 quests, this treatment is only given to Priests and to a lesser degree Paladins. Bringing this up, because I believe it would go unnoticed by most people unless they had two priests. (The quests are physically the same, but the lore and "strings" are different -- very nice touch, in my opinion).

Priests:
Human: Favored of the Light - Quest - World of Warcraft Awards: Staff of the Hallowed - Item - World of Warcraft
Night Elf: Favored of Elune - Quest - World of Warcraft Awards: Moon Staff of Elune - Item - World of Warcraft
Gnome: A Budding Young Surgeon - Quest - World of Warcraft Awards: Staff of the Technocrat - Item - World of Warcraft

Goblin: A Seer's Staff - Quest - World of Warcraft Awards: Staff of Golden Worship - Item - World of Warcraft
Tauren: A Seer's Staff - Quest - World of Warcraft Awards: Staff of the Earthmother - Item - World of Warcraft
Blood Elf: Staff of the Light - Quest - World of Warcraft Awards: Staff of the Sunchaser - Item - World of Warcraft
Forsaken: The Dark Cleric's Bidding - Quest - World of Warcraft Awards: Staff of Forsaken Faith - Item - World of Warcraft
Troll: The Shadow-Walker's Task - Quest - World of Warcraft Awards: Shadow-Walker Staff - Item - World of Warcraft

Not sure where Worgen and Dwarf Priests fit in, initial guess would be Dwarf Priests with to the Stormwind Cathedral, but the quest from Ironforge sends priests to Darnassus for Favored of Elune.

Originally Posted by arison View Post
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.

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Old 11/28/10, 3:40 AM   #9981
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
Regarding the war in Barrens, several things strike me as seriously not right.

First, Westfall, Redridge, and Duskwood all complain their requests for military support from Stormwind are falling on deaf ears. They're told Stormwind has no forces available to assist. Yet Varian has masses of forces available to travel to another content and attack enemy territory? Seriously, you'd attack a well defended enemy and let your homeland be destroyed by various elements, all individually weaker and easily rolled up if you diverted your army around the area in sequence.

Second, resources are tight. There's less livable land and less arable land.. No... wait... a good portion of the Plaguelands has been restored and is being recolonized. The Twilight Hammer are allowed to take over their Highlands and no one contests them, because we don't care about the resources involved.

It's simply illogical. Which is fairly normal status quo, unfortunately. I understand and appreciate wanting to put the War back in Warcraft and have the factions at each others' throats, but reduced resources is a lousy excuse.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

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Old 11/28/10, 6:23 AM   #9982
dustdog
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Arthas
Westfall, Redridge and Duskwood all happened before Varian returned, and while Onyxia was pulling the strings though didn't it? Stoutmantle ended up going to Northrend to run the Westfall Brigade Encampment, so it seems like even though Westfall was "safe" these past few years as the new quests indicate for the most part, they still needed more to do a tour of duty in Northrend. I've yet to do the new Redridge and Duskwood quests, but after Sentinel Hill gets attacked by Vanessa and co, Varian says he will send troops, which you see when you zone into Deadmines.

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Old 11/28/10, 8:50 AM   #9983
Malleus
King Hippo
 
Human Paladin
 
Bronze Dragonflight (EU)
Originally Posted by dustdog View Post
Westfall, Redridge and Duskwood all happened before Varian returned, and while Onyxia was pulling the strings though didn't it? Stoutmantle ended up going to Northrend to run the Westfall Brigade Encampment, so it seems like even though Westfall was "safe" these past few years as the new quests indicate for the most part, they still needed more to do a tour of duty in Northrend. I've yet to do the new Redridge and Duskwood quests, but after Sentinel Hill gets attacked by Vanessa and co, Varian says he will send troops, which you see when you zone into Deadmines.
This. With the Defias gone there is no obvious threat to any of these areas, and when all is said and done they're practically within sight of Stormwind's walls. Varian reads the requests for aid and thinks - not unjustifiably - that he's dealing with a bunch of whiny bitches having a panic attack because there's a few gnolls on the borders. As such he ignores them and instead sends troops to front line battlefields that have a clear and present need for reinforcement. None of this is unreasonable or illogical. Not to say that Varian Wrynn is never unreasonable or illogical, of course, but on this specific count he's sound.

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Old 11/28/10, 10:30 AM   #9984
26thraider
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Runetotem (EU)
While I disagree that the citizens of those zones are whiners (it is serious when the heartland doesn't have adequate protection from 'native' nuisances), Varian wasn't exactly wrong in the Barrens attack.

The attack, while aimed at the strongest part of the Horde, would in the case of no Deathwing, have caused a severe problem for both the Tauren and the Orcs. I have no illusions that the Human armies could have entered Orgrimmar, but cutting it and Thunder Bluff off from each other, as well as shutting the farming of Durotar (and the Barrens for that matter) down, would have resulted in a capitulation in short order.
It was basically a hard, fast strike at the heart. With the Orcs out of the picture, the Tauren bottled up in Mulgore, the Goblins would be easy to overrun, though I imagine they would cut a deal rapidly. The Trolls would most likely surrender with the Orcs, or flee across the sea to god knows where. It wouldn't matter that things at home were iffy if the main war could be won like that. Soon the guys would be home rooting out the Defias, Gnolls and whatnot.

But that wasn't what happened. Instead the Human juggernaught got caught in the open by Deathwing. And the great rift would leave them stranded. The Orcs and Tauren could then respond united and the current situation is the result. Most likely some Human troops have been shipped home to be sent to Andorhal or other northern areas as they came under attack.

Varian gambled, and lost. But the strategy wasn't 100% wrong, only it was risky, however war is risky. Unless you are significantly more powerful than your opponent, you will have to leave some areas open for attack or trouble. And that is exactly what happened.
Both sides are fully engaged, thus the Twilight Highlands were not a real option. The other side would just take advantage of the diversion of forces. Such is the fate of a threeway war. More sensible leaders could perhaps still engaged the Twilights but neither Varian nor Garrosh can see past their hatred.

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Old 11/28/10, 10:34 AM   #9985
Kaejin
Great Tiger
 
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Troll Death Knight
 
Mal'Ganis
Westfall aside, Redridge is still infested with Blackrock orcs (they even gained ground compared to classic). That seems kind of urgent to me. If they took Lakeshire they could send word to BRM and waltz right up to Stormwind's front gates with an entire army, including whatever monstrosities Nefarion feels like sending along.

Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh.

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Old 11/28/10, 1:27 PM   #9986
Malleus
King Hippo
 
Human Paladin
 
Bronze Dragonflight (EU)
Originally Posted by Kaejin View Post
Westfall aside, Redridge is still infested with Blackrock orcs (they even gained ground compared to classic). That seems kind of urgent to me. .
They've actually got advance scouts in Northshire, so it's worse than you think in terms of proximity to Stormwind. However, it seems to me that the reason the Blackrock Orcs are pushing now is because they're trapped between Ragnaros and Deathwing. Half the Dark Iron Dwarves have already joined the Alliance rather than be forced into allegiance with Deathwing; it would not surprise me if the Blackrock Clan suffer a similar split before we're through.

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Old 11/28/10, 1:43 PM   #9987
Kirion
Don Flamenco
 
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Tauren Shaman
 
Deathwing (EU)
Originally Posted by Malleus View Post
They've actually got advance scouts in Northshire, so it's worse than you think in terms of proximity to Stormwind. However, it seems to me that the reason the Blackrock Orcs are pushing now is because they're trapped between Ragnaros and Deathwing. Half the Dark Iron Dwarves have already joined the Alliance rather than be forced into allegiance with Deathwing; it would not surprise me if the Blackrock Clan suffer a similar split before we're through.
Actually Blackrock is fully allied with Deathwing. You deal with invasion force in Burning Steppes questchain with sabotage.
Burning Steppes storyline - Wowpedia - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

42.

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Old 11/28/10, 2:03 PM   #9988
Belegûr
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Death Knight
 
Kael'thas (EU)
Both the Redridge and Searing Gorge Blackrock orc armies suffer significant losses under the actions of John J. "Rambo" Keeshan. Varian needn't worry too much about those for the moment, he can handle more urgent matters.

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Old 11/28/10, 2:06 PM   #9989
Camaris
Piston Honda
 
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Human Paladin
 
Kul Tiras (EU)
Actually, the Blackrock Orcs are on Deathwing's side. A black dragon called Darkblaze leads the assault in Redridge.

It's unclear what exactly happened to the Blackrocks in Redridge between vanilla and the Shattering. It seems there was a bit of a stalemate between Lakeshire and the orcs, because the only thing worrying the questgivers there is the increase in gnoll activity, only later leading you to discover a major pending orc invasion.

Maybe Stormwind just doesn't see real threats in those zones. Gnolls, murlocs and kobolds are mostly annoying, and there are a bunch of weird haunted places in Duskwood that pose no threat to the Kingdom. The Nobles in Stormwind probably don't care about some farmers in some far away little village.

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Old 11/28/10, 2:39 PM   #9990
Blayze
Piston Honda
 
Human Warrior
 
Hellscream (EU)
Originally Posted by Starfire View Post
this treatment is only given to Priests and to a lesser degree Paladins.
Upon visiting Moonglade, I found a Druid version (The Horde version says it's Tauren only, but the Alliance one doesn't provide a race restriction) offered by a trainer called The Circle's Future (The Alliance and Horde versions seem to differ only in quest completion text.)

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