Something that has been picking at my brain lately, is where exactly Yogg-Saron is. Obviously is influence reaches far across Northrend, but where will he show up and when will we get to collect his phat lewts?
Where did you get the impression, that Yogg-Saron can only be in one of those locations? He could be big enough to just stretch under the whole continent. That even opens the possibility of the "surprise raid" being in Yogg-Saron, where the players have to destroy his brain or rescue a half-eaten NPC.
I used to think the same way cobs does. then I read "Through the Dark Portal" and the events in that book really leave little doubt that Ner'zhul is only interested in the survival of NZ.
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He starts painting his face like a skull and treats himeslef as some sort of death incatnate. He is responsible for the creation of outlands and when he could have stopped the ritual that tore Dranor apart he killed a fellow orc and escaped into the nether.
That makes more sense and is sort of an underlying theme of the expansion voiced through other mobs, I just wish they would expand on it more in-game as the Lich King seems pretty passive in all our encounters so far. It would also give a sense of urgency and purpose to needing to defeat him so it doesn't turn into another BT scenario with little reasoning behind killing the big guy. Maybe Blizz is channeling the late great Sir Edmund Hillary and think "because it's there" is reasoning enough to do anything.
Where did you get the impression, that Yogg-Saron can only be in one of those locations? He could be big enough to just stretch under the whole continent. That even opens the possibility of the "surprise raid" being in Yogg-Saron, where the players have to destroy his brain or rescue a half-eaten NPC.
I suppose my limited perspective on "what" he is was based off of my image of our previous encounter with an Old God (C'Thun) I do like your idea, though - what you mentioned about his being spreading across the continent, reminded me of the mouth-looking-object at the bottom of the Weeping Quarry in Icecrown; It's the model for the base of the Eye of C'Thun.
The thought of raiding inside of him is pretty awesome - it reminds me of an RPG on Dreamcast called Grandia 2. Without getting on too much of a tangent about the story, you actually have to fight through the inside of a dark god and it was pretty wicked. Nice thought to ponder He is afterall, the "Beast of a Thousand Maws".
What dragon are you talking about exactly? As far as I can tell there are only 5 [of any significance] Blue Dragons who aren't directly malevolent to either the Horde or the Alliance. And I say directly because 1 or 2 of them may have been manipulating the Horde/Alliance.
There's Kalecgos obviously, who is indebt to us.
There's Haleah which has been "good" to us, but then again we were more or less doing her a favor by killing off the heirs of the Dragonflight which obliterated her flight... And a flight which was currently kidnapping and raping members of her own. Enemy of an enemy is a friend, right?
There is Tyrygosa/Princess Tyri who may have manipulated us into bringing back Nether eggs for Malygos. (Interestingly enough, she is mentioned to be in Coldarra/Nexus from Blizzcon, but as far as I know she is not in Northrend).
Then there's Andorgos who seems somewhat insigifnicant, but she presumeably was valorous and aided the mortal races. She supplies the mortal races with armor to battle the Qiraji.
And finally Arygos, who was (is?) the heir of Malygos from a thousand years ago. Arygos was one of the three heirs that was locked into Ahn'Qiraj as thousand years ago. He crafts powerful elementium weaponry for the mortal races.
So what we have here is 2 who are benevolent to the mortal races, 1 who is indebt to us and 2 who may not like us. The rest of the Blue Dragons are aggressive towards us (Azuregos, Spellmaw, Colbatann, etc).
Random interesting facts. Arygos was named Malygos heir a thousand years ago. Tyrygosa is the Princess of the Blue Dragonflight, so presumeably she is/was the new heir via the assumption of Arygos' death. Kalecgos is the mate of Tyrygosa. In theory all three have a sort of "claim to the throne" for the Aspect of Magic.
And real random fact, Arygos and Andorgos take gnome forms, Tyrygosa and Haleh take high-elf form. Kalecgos takes half-elf form. Judging from the above, I wonder if that's purely coincidental or done on purpose (the Gnomes are clearly benevolent to us, the High-Elfs are potentially manipulating us and the Half-Elf is indebt to us).
The lore of us fighting Malygos is pretty weak to be honest. What Malygos has been doing is basically a repeat of what Neltharion (Deathwing) has been doing since WC2, and for the same reason: The mortals don't know WTF they're doing, so we're going to correct their ways. If it means their extermination, then so be it. Which led to a theory that Neltharion's corruption basically got the Malygos through the Netherwing, which are still offspring of Neltharion. You'd think that if Netherwing power actually pulled him out of insanity he'd be able to take more logical (or smoother) approaches. Instead we are given an aspect that went from Emo to Nerdrage (hey that sounds like Garrosh)
On the issue with Tyrigosa, I don't really think she manipulated anyone, as the quests are pretty straightforward about: we need to show these dragons that we're the dominant ones here, after they are tamed I have uses for them. The blue flight is supposed to be friendly towards us, much like the Red, Bronze, and Green. The hostile dragonspawns/drakes are just something that shipped with classic WoW, where we do get both hostile Red and Green Dragons (although I guess you can argue with the fact that they might be corrupted (gasp) by Neltharion and the Emerald Nightmare, respectively)
As an Old God, Yogg-Saron has considerable power. Even though they lost the fight against the Titans, they ensured the Titans were unable to destroy all of them, instead simply binding them below Azeroth's surface.
It probably wouldn't be that much of a stretch to just consider Yogg-Saron to be 'somewhere beneath Northrend'. You see signs of his power all over the continent, which pretty much makes it his sphere of influence. C'Thun's weakened form was cast into the desert after his defeat, and yet he was still able to convert its inhabitants into obedient servants in his image and create vast armies that way. Yogg-Saron's methods seem to be more subtle, but if he wasn't weakened as C'Thun was, he could easily serve as the evil behind the scenes.
As for Zul'Drak, I pretty much felt you completed the questline for the area proper. You start by sabotaging the Scourge efforts in the area and eventually kill their local commander, then learn what the trolls have done to fight the Scourge and put a halt to it, and finally head into Gundrak and kill their masterminds as well. I'm not sure if there's anything else there that we left unfinished.
I suppose my limited perspective on "what" he is was based off of my image of our previous encounter with an Old God (C'Thun) I do like your idea, though - what you mentioned about his being spreading across the continent, reminded me of the mouth-looking-object at the bottom of the Weeping Quarry in Icecrown; It's the model for the base of the Eye of C'Thun.
My impression of C'thun's presence as seen in AQ40 was that we were merely fighting the tip of the iceberg, as it were. We fought our way far into the depths of the Temple below Silithus, and at the very bottom we found the spot where he was closest to the surface, and poked him in the eye until he went away. His actual influence can be seen all across southern Kalimdor, in Feralas, Un'Goro, Tanaris, Thousand Needles, and even up into Southern Barrens, assuming of course that all Silithids are driven by the same hand, which may or may not be the case. Regardless, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that his presences touches locations underneath each of the locations you mention in Northrend, and delving too deep into any of them could lead to an encounter. Of course, the hole is already dug in Azjol'Nerub, we just have to find the door (or wait for it to find us).
I agree that it isn't a stretch for the Lich King to want to destroy the world now. What I think is missing for me are the reasons and justifications why.
I don't think there's much to miss there. Even if the Lich King completely consolidates his hold over Azeroth, there's still stuff out there that can threaten him. The burning legion, the old gods, the return of the titans, the Naaru, and those are just the things we know about.
I think the Lich King feels (justifiably or not) very, very threatened, exposed, and vulnerable, and is still in a mad scramble to consolidate enough power to simply withstand the next attack. All of Azeroth is just one weapon he can use to defend himself, and he doesn't have a complete grip on it yet, and even when he does it simply might not be enough. How many Naaru-like species are out there, somewhere? What happens if three civilizations of that sort were to focus attacks on our world at once?
Originally Posted by Rhaegal
My impression of C'thun's presence as seen in AQ40 was that we were merely fighting the tip of the iceberg, as it were.
I am in absolute, complete agreement -- pretty much literally.
The Old Gods are so obviously based on Lovecraft that I try to think of them in the same terms. So I see them as n-dimensional non-Euclidean beings. I don't see them as simply three-dimensional like us.
If you've read "Flatland", well, that book deals with a two-dimensional character who encounters a three-dimensional character, and talks about their projections into two-dimensional space and how they'd be perceived and how they wouldn't really be the whole entity or any kind of accurate representation of them. That's exactly how I see the Old Gods -- Azeroth is something like a bubble or membrane, and they're in the space that membrane stretches across, and push and prod against it and project into it, having effects we can interact with. But what we see isn't the entirety of them, any more than the circle formed by sticking one of our fingers into the surface of a pool of liquid would be the entirety of one of us.
It's said at Blizzcon Tyrigosa bringing back the eggs to Malygos is what "cures" him and sets him off on his rage to against the magic-users. Of course they may have just abandoned that lore/plot-line.
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
It's said at Blizzcon Tyrigosa bringing back the eggs to Malygos is what "cures" him and sets him off on his rage to against the magic-users. Of course they may have just abandoned that lore/plot-line.
When Metzen was talking about that, he also brought up the Naga presence in Borean Tundra. The Riplash Ruins were supposed to be the Naga working a plot to melt the ice of Northrend -- some diabolical plot that in the end sounds about as useful as them draining Zangarmarsh back in BC. Considering that the Naga have been reduced to a single quest-giver instead of a series of quest-objectives, and that their presence has been replaced with the Vrykul, I'm thinking that the design was changed to tie the area in with the rest of the expansion's story. And the Vrykul are much more prominent in the Wrath kit, where the Naga really aren't.
The absence of Tyrigosa and Kalecgos is hard to quantify -- maybe we'll have an explanation when the Blue Chamber is revealed, or when Crystalsong gets populated with quests. While Tyri and Kalec have been an ally to humanity in the past, we've seen no one amongst the Blue Flight who's defected from Malygos' control. While I don't expect that they're raidboss material, I think we'll definitely be struggling with them both in some way.
That being said, those two (Kalec and Tyri) are probably the most likely pair to take over Malygos' aegis as head of the what remains of the Blue Flight -- however, without the empowerment of the Titans, no one can replace the Aspect of Magic.
That being said, those two (Kalec and Tyri) are probably the most likely pair to take over Malygos' aegis as head of the what remains of the Blue Flight -- however, without the empowerment of the Titans, no one can replace the Aspect of Magic.
That would make for a possible quest line entry into Ulduar proper - maybe we need to go in there to get whatever it is that is needed to empower the next Aspect.
When Metzen was talking about that, he also brought up the Naga presence in Borean Tundra. The Riplash Ruins were supposed to be the Naga working a plot to melt the ice of Northrend -- some diabolical plot that in the end sounds about as useful as them draining Zangarmarsh back in BC.
I like the idea of the Naga as the Cobra of WoW, forever destined to hatch and feebly execute ludicrous/grandiose plots. Unfortunately we already killed Cobra Commander in SSC, but there's no reason she can't come back like Kael.
I like the idea of the Naga as the Cobra of WoW, forever destined to hatch and feebly execute ludicrous/grandiose plots. Unfortunately we already killed Cobra Commander in SSC, but there's no reason she can't come back like Kael.
I don't quite know what your Cobra reference is coming from (It's not GI Joe is it? well that's what Cobra Commander reminds me of). But it's an interesting reference because both are Indian.
Naga are of Indian origin and Azshara is clearly modelled after the Indian God Shiva. And interestingly enough, Shiva is known to have a Cobra form and/or always has a Cobra around him or his neck. (The statues of Queen Azshara in Quel'danas and Azshara have her in the position of Shiva doing the cosmic dance).
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
I like the idea of the Naga as the Cobra of WoW, forever destined to hatch and feebly execute ludicrous/grandiose plots. Unfortunately we already killed Cobra Commander in SSC, but there's no reason she can't come back like Kael.
Well, as we know, Cobra Commander was merely an underling of Serpentor. (Why I remember this, I don't know.)
By the same token, Vashj was taking her actions in Outland based ostensibly on orders from Azshara. It might be that Blizzard nixed the Naga presence in Wrath so that they wouldn't be played out in this expansion only to become the prime foot soldiers of the opposition in the Maelstrom.
As for the Naga being COBRA, it's not that they're an organization given to farce and silly plots, but that their presence is often not really well-defined. We know the Naga are draining the water out of Zangarmarsh, but there's not a real clear explanation as to why they're doing and why it becomes unimportant -- since SSC and The Eye didn't really conclude the stories in their zones, it's hard to tell if Vashj is actually canonically dead. She's left very enigmatic for the whole of BC, and that doesn't really expand much on her behavior from WC3.
I think we will see the rise of the Naga as a serious organization when Azshara rears her ugly head. So I'll place my bets for that on the next expansion.
The Naga seem to be more "chaotic" at the moment while Queen Azshara plots. Kind of like a Azshara is in control laissez-faire and various groups of Nagas are just doing whatever they please.
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
That would make for a possible quest line entry into Ulduar proper - maybe we need to go in there to get whatever it is that is needed to empower the next Aspect.
Possibly but I'm more siding with the theory that Alexstrasza is angling to become the ultimate Dragon Aspect empowered from the other 4. She already has us offing Malygos, with Neltharion or Nozdormu as possible next targets. Not saying theres anything sinister about it nessecarily but thats the way I see it going. Just promoting another blue would not nessecarily be a sure thing, especially if he's affect with Corruption™ that affects 90% of things in WoW. I miss bad guys that are bad just because they are bastards.
Originally Posted by Shadowed
The best part is, not only were you late in linking it, that's an April fools topic from 6 months ago.
So I was reading through Issue 15 of WoW again, and I noticed that the Orcs seem to be against the idea of peace altogether. One of the Orcs said that Thrall's alliance of peace was a sign of weakness, and Thrall said he had growing hostility from his own people over peace, and with him as the main one pushing for it.
Seems like the Orcs can't shake their bloodsoaked roots.
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What is the most important thing to you? Won't you grant me the pleasure of taking it away.
that´s probably just the "natural" way. If I remember the classic quests they were all like "It´s a harsh life, but we like it that way!" Head over to Kargarth and talk to the NPC´s there. They LOVE being in a barren, dry wasteland.
Now, several years later, life isn´t so harsh anymore. Well, probably in Kargath it is, but overall the wealth of the Orcs increased. And beginning from here you can see how old hatreds can come to life again. You´re satisfied and have time and energy left to devote to things such as.. war.
To quote Yatzee;
"When a society has become rich, fat, and stupid enough they tend to enjoy a good War."
While the orcs were never a calm and peaceful bunch in the first place, and Thrall's leadership has rekindled old shamanistic ways of respecting nature etcetera, it might be difficult to subdue "genetics". I mean, we see this in our contemporary society, in the most peaceful regions of our world, Man finds some way to create an argument or a ruckus out of next to nothing.
As for Zul'Drak, I pretty much felt you completed the questline for the area proper. You start by sabotaging the Scourge efforts in the area and eventually kill their local commander, then learn what the trolls have done to fight the Scourge and put a halt to it, and finally head into Gundrak and kill their masterminds as well. I'm not sure if there's anything else there that we left unfinished.
I'm not so sure. We defeated all of the high prophets, sure, but prophets seem to be replaceable. There were at least two for some of the Loa. We never encountered the Drakkari's king, and Gundrak isn't even the crown Jewel of Drakkari architecture. Trolls aren't the kind to take defeat gracefully, especially while their leader still lives.
I kind of wonder if we're ever going to go further in Zul'Drak given we leave the zone weakened but still with the last citadel intact. Makes me wonder if thats not going to be either a new raid (be it the big 3.2 one or a small encounter one) or another 5 man saved for a content patch ala Magisters Terrace. Lorewise a final defeat of the Drakkari would certainly free up troops to redirect to Icecrown.
Originally Posted by Shadowed
The best part is, not only were you late in linking it, that's an April fools topic from 6 months ago.
While Tyri and Kalec have been an ally to humanity in the past, we've seen no one amongst the Blue Flight who's defected from Malygos' control.
Do not forget we're talking about a Dragon Flight. We're not talking about humans. It's not some tribe or nation or clan: Dragons are not humans, and they don't work the same way. Each and every black dragonflight member has been unfaillibly loyal to Neltharion's principle after his corruption. Each and every bronze dragon is unfaillibly loyal to Nozdormu even in the face in evidence that Nozdormu might not be acting exactly like they thought he should (Chromie's reaction is enlightening on that point). Barring corruption (green nightmare-corrupted dragons, brainwashed reds), all dragons remain a mirror of their Aspect's principles.
I think dragons are fundamentally incapable of going against the grain of the Dragonflight leader. Tyrigosa and Kalecgos might be good friends of humans - but if the blue dragonflight goes against magic users (not "all of Azeroth", just magic users, with little respect for collateral damage), I wouldn't count on them defecting or even staying put. We haven't seen them because, like a good show, you don't put every single major character in every single episode.
Of course, with Malygos down, a change in policy might come. Or they can be half-n-half convinced ("Malygos' methods might have been extreme, but the principles are sound. We need an Inquisition to watch over magic use").
I like the idea of the Naga as the Cobra of WoW, forever destined to hatch and feebly execute ludicrous/grandiose plots. Unfortunately we already killed Cobra Commander in SSC, but there's no reason she can't come back like Kael.
Naw we just killed the Baroness. And that's occured a few times and she came back!
I would really love to see the Naga expanded just because we know so little about them.
Do not forget we're talking about a Dragon Flight. We're not talking about humans. It's not some tribe or nation or clan: Dragons are not humans, and they don't work the same way. Each and every black dragonflight member has been unfaillibly loyal to Neltharion's principle after his corruption. Each and every bronze dragon is unfaillibly loyal to Nozdormu even in the face in evidence that Nozdormu might not be acting exactly like they thought he should (Chromie's reaction is enlightening on that point). Barring corruption (green nightmare-corrupted dragons, brainwashed reds), all dragons remain a mirror of their Aspect's principles.
I think dragons are fundamentally incapable of going against the grain of the Dragonflight leader. Tyrigosa and Kalecgos might be good friends of humans - but if the blue dragonflight goes against magic users (not "all of Azeroth", just magic users, with little respect for collateral damage), I wouldn't count on them defecting or even staying put. We haven't seen them because, like a good show, you don't put every single major character in every single episode.
Of course, with Malygos down, a change in policy might come. Or they can be half-n-half convinced ("Malygos' methods might have been extreme, but the principles are sound. We need an Inquisition to watch over magic use").
In the new book Night of the Dragon, Kalecgos's feelings on the matter are made abundantly clear. To summarize, Kalecgos disagrees with Malygos on his stance toward the mortal races and other matters (not specified), but he will not go against what his lord has ordered. So I would say you're partially correct; Kalecgos will obey his lord to a fault, but he is free to disagree with the order being given. I think of dragons as more of a feudal society than anything, where the lord exercises his control over his vassals whether they are willing or no, because they owe him their fealty. Alexstrasza's Red Dragonflight is a prime example of this, where she calls upon the fury of her flight because they have a loyalty bond of love, not necessarily because it's a decision they agree with.
Regarding Yogg-Saron, I seem to recall claims that he is big enough to run the length of Northrend. That would allow his influence to be tunneled into in both Grizzly Hills, Azjol-Nerub and Icecrown. Even if they limited his corporeal body to something similar to C'thun sized, Saronite is referred to as the Black Blood of the Yogg-Saron. I doubt it would be inconceivable that he could essentially just send it out through the ground as some sort of remote corrupting goop.
Regarding the "mystery" raid. I fear it will be trolls. It's in the back of everyone's mind. We all know its coming. Part of me wouldn't be surprised if Ulduar was devoid of Titan stuff and just filled with trolls. I'm not saying it would be, but trolls are the fall back raid mob of choice. Realistically and all kidding aside, I have a feeling that the mystery raid will be Gundrak. The 5 man instance was basically clearing one of the storage sheds of the complex. There is still a giant fortress there as well as a giant, ominous snake tail in the instance. It also has the bonus of providing the requisite troll raid.
They've basically all but admitted that the ball was dropped in regards to all aspects of Azjol-Nerub; Anub'arak being a cheesy 5 man boss; two quick instances to represent what should be a lore rich and massive part of Northrend. It feels less like a mighty, ancient civilization and more like Scholomance. But less important or smaller scale. Even if they were to retcon it into a massive raid zone, it feels as though at this point, the damage is already done.
The Naga seem to be more "chaotic" at the moment while Queen Azshara plots. Kind of like a Azshara is in control laissez-faire and various groups of Nagas are just doing whatever they please.
My recollection of Azshara from the "War of the Ancients" trilogy is that she largely ruled by manipulation, influence, and charisma, rather than by direct orders.
Now, there were certainly matters where she'd take a direct hand in things, but for day-to-day operations, I got the impression that her method was to drop hints about the outcomes she wanted and the favors she'd award whoever accomplished them, and then sat back and enjoyed the show as everyone else scrambled to get it done and stab each other in the back.
01/27/09, 11:27 AM
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I do like your idea, though - what you mentioned about his being spreading across the continent, reminded me of the mouth-looking-object at the bottom of the Weeping Quarry in Icecrown; It's the model for the base of the Eye of C'Thun.
And that's occured a few times and she came back! 
