World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 673

Caspian · 12/31/10, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by Hoenir

Perhaps Azeroth was created by the Titans as the cage for the old gods which is why they seeded it with life (as a defence if the old gods escaped imprisonment) and gave it aspects to defend it from what may/may not arise from the old gods and somewhere in between the old gods have gained power which the once did not have.

Azeroth wasn't created by the Titans. It already existed and had already been found by the Old Gods when the Titans discovered it. I also think it's fairly safe to assume that if the re-origination discs are a true "saved copy" of Azeroth then the Trolls as a race would be safe. Individuals Trolls would no longer exist, but their race would be recreated. This is, ofcourse, assuming that re-origination wouldn't remake Azeroth into the Titans' "perfect world", free of all fleshy life as well as the Old Gods (I do wonder if they're immune to re-origination, somehow, since from what I can tell they're the ones trying to get at the discs).

JusticarVinny · 01/02/11, 4:50 PM

Originally Posted by Hoenir

Are we sure Brann is not already corrupted and he is actually "Freeing" the old gods from their cages, perhaps their current physical form is something which the Titans created and inserted them into which is actually a much stronger cage than what is holding this physical form in place? (I know it is a farfetched thought however I just think that maybe the Titans created the Physical bodies and have placed the beings inside)

Perhaps Azeroth was created by the Titans as the cage for the old gods which is why they seeded it with life (as a defence if the old gods escaped imprisonment) and gave it aspects to defend it from what may/may not arise from the old gods and somewhere in between the old gods have gained power which the once did not have.

You're partially right and partially wrong. If you want a short primer, you can read The Old Gods and the Ordering of Azeroth.

For the short version: Azeroth already existed, it used to be governed by Old Gods, but the Titans found it, beat the Old Gods into submission, chained some of them and their lieutenants in underground bases (i.e. Ulduar holds Yogg-Saron and Terramok holds the Stonemother). Life is actually "bad" for the world, it is called the Curse of Flesh (do the Alliance quests in Borean Tundra for a quick primer).

With that said, there has been some speculation that C'thun and Yogg-Saron are still alive somewhere, on another plane of existence, despite the fact that we have killed their physical bodies. For proof, look at the Yogg-Saron death files. He doesn't seem sad or angry at his passing... he only tells us that his death seals our doom. Which likely means that Yogg is still alive somewhere, or maybe his death empowers another Old God still existing somewhere else, etc.

Kaejin · 01/02/11, 7:33 PM

Not merely speculation. The comics revealed that C'thun is definitely still around, in one form or another.

Ukerric · 01/03/11, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by JusticarVinny

You're partially right and partially wrong. If you want a short primer, you can read The Old Gods and the Ordering of Azeroth.

For the short version:...

This version is probably no longer fully canon, as later revelations (notably direct from Titan archives, as opposed to a mythological book) give a different version of the creation stories.

In the current interpretation, the Old Gods arrived on Azeroth much later, in-between Titan visits, and enlisted the Elementals as tools for their takeover (see Hall of Stone).

The Curse of Flesh applies specifically to Titan Servitor Constructs (Mechagnomes, Iron Dwarves, proto-Vrykuls, Stone Tol'vir, etc) as a subversion mechanic, but there was "fleshy" life on Azeroth for a long time. Titans re-engineered - living - proto-drakes into the Dragonflights; as for the Elves, Trolls or Taurens, these seem to be "native" species of Azeroth rather than perverted Titan constructs.

Nathanyel · 01/04/11, 7:42 AM

Originally Posted by Kaejin

You kill a physical manifestation or powerful minion and they taunt you rather than sound even somewhat disappointed. It's hard to say if we're even setting their plans back with the way they act.

Yogg-Saron even sounds excited about his defeat in Ulduar.

Sara yells: Yes! YES! Show them no mercy! Give no pause to your attacks!

I think this implies that by becoming more brutal, we are taking a step towards serving the Old Gods in the end.
Though this sounds awfully like a) the Emperor's attempts to sway Luke to the Dark Side and b) the campaign against the Lich King, who planned to just let "the heroes" prove their worth against his minions, only to simply grab them as his new champions (Fury of Frostmourne) which in turn mirrors Arthas' own path of damnation.

Malleus · 01/04/11, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by Nathanyel

Sara yells: Yes! YES! Show them no mercy! Give no pause to your attacks!

I think this implies that by becoming more brutal, we are taking a step towards serving the Old Gods in the end.

Really? I always assumed it meant Yogg-Saron was mad as a sack of badgers. I mean, look at the fight. He blesses us so we can kill his guardians, but the buffs he gives make us more vulnerable. He throws up an impenetrable shield, then opens portals that lets us through it. Then, after giving us all this help to kill him - some of which makes us more likely to fail - he tells us that doing so has doomed Azeroth to destruction. He's indubitably insane even if you ignore the maniacal laughter and Lunatic Gaze ability. The only question is whether there's method in his madness and he wants the world to be destroyed, or if he's simply a dribbling loony.

A minor sidebar: has anyone noticed how the Old Gods seem to fit various proverbs? C'thun's eye is bigger than his stomach, and Yogg-Saron's mouth is engaged before his brain gets into gear.

Bullshot · 01/04/11, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by Malleus

Really? I always assumed it meant Yogg-Saron was mad as a sack of badgers. I mean, look at the fight. He blesses us so we can kill his guardians, but the buffs he gives make us more vulnerable. He throws up an impenetrable shield, then opens portals that lets us through it. Then, after giving us all this help to kill him - some of which makes us more likely to fail - he tells us that doing so has doomed Azeroth to destruction. He's indubitably insane even if you ignore the maniacal laughter and Lunatic Gaze ability. The only question is whether there's method in his madness and he wants the world to be destroyed, or if he's simply a dribbling loony.

Or the Old Gods live on different planes of existence and "killing" the physical manifestation of an Old God "bumps" their consciousness to a different plane where they are more powerful or can regain their strength, or even probably be able to merge together into a single ultra-powerful entity. This could explain why the Titans didn't "kill" the Old Gods and just imprisoned them in different parts of the world.

Nathanyel · 01/04/11, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Malleus

Really? I always assumed it meant Yogg-Saron was mad as a sack of badgers.

Can't it be both?

Like Bullshot said (and I think it was kinda mentioned previously as well) their physical death could mean a rebirth, or at least setting their, uh, spirit free - e.g. to merge with Cho'gall. His appearance changes so far are probably just the baby stage of C'thun's former body.
Also, as this likely wasn't the first time their physical manifestations were destroyed, this would add to their madness, maybe even was the cause of what drove them insane - maybe they started out as neutral beings. But imagine you experienced death, countless times over the eons... eventually you'd dress up as a superhero and call yourself Mysterion er I mean you'd see all creation as inferior, existing only to be destroyed and be thrown into chaos... Taking steps to bring on the end of the universe just to find out if it would end your existence as well...

Sharilar · 01/04/11, 2:02 PM

Also recall just who they're based on. The Lovecraftian Old Ones and such were supposed to be so far beyond mortal understanding that they'd seem insane, even if they aren't. (And trying to understand some of that stuff was supposed to eventually drive a person insane.) Also the Mindbender boss in Throne of the Tides repeats the "They are outside the cycle" quote. Yogg especially reminds me of one quote from Lovecraft:

That which is not dead does eternal lie
And in strange aeons even death may die.

Considering that the Old Gods take their inspiration from Lovecraft stuff, looking at it through that lens may help.

Tinwhisker · 01/04/11, 3:39 PM

It would make sense that we find the old gods imprisoned then. The Titans probably understood that killing the old gods wouldn't actually destroy them (and would possibly make them stronger / more insane), that's why they were imprisoned instead. It may not be that the old gods are "linked" to Azeroth, but that they can't be fully destroyed by any means.

Malleus · 01/04/11, 7:09 PM

Originally Posted by Tinwhisker

It would make sense that we find the old gods imprisoned then. The Titans probably understood that killing the old gods wouldn't actually destroy them (and would possibly make them stronger / more insane), that's why they were imprisoned instead.

I have a problem with this theory. The Keepers of Ulduar are servants of the Titans and their purpose is to keep Yogg-Saron imprisoned. Why, then, do they help us kill him after we free them from his influence - influence that with Loken dead, he may not be able to restore? I can only suppose that with Tyr missing, the remaining five Keepers weren't powerful enough to keep an Old God caged indefinitely. As the Keeper of Order Tyr could well have been the linchpin in Ulduar's defences, and his removal - and hence the removal of order - is what allowed Yogg to start corrupting the other five.

It's a shame we never find out what happened to Tyr. Though the killing of Loken (the Prime Designate) is what summons Algalon, it's possible that killing any of the other Keepers would have done the same. If so, then it would have to be the case that Tyr is still alive somewhere as he disappears before Loken's death.

Nathanyel · 01/05/11, 7:23 AM

Originally Posted by Malleus

The Keepers of Ulduar are servants of the Titans and their purpose is to keep Yogg-Saron imprisoned. Why, then, do they help us kill him after we free them from his influence - influence that with Loken dead, he may not be able to restore?

They could simply not know. Or it is preferrable to destroy his body now, setting him back a bit more, than keeping him in an already damaged prison.
They might even expect another Titan visit though, who would be able to bind him in another prison. Maybe as a reaction to Loken's death, they were expecting the Titans themselves and not just 'some' astral robot. Did we ever get any reaction from them to Algalon's arrival (and change of plans)?

Exemplar · 01/05/11, 8:27 AM

Chronologically Algalon would appear after we defeat Yogg, and the Watchers have returned to ignoring us. Obviously in gameplay it is possible to fight Algalon before Watchers, once you have a key.

Also, if Yogg has grand plans, it's quite possible he deleted any data from the Watchers regarding death of Old Gods being bad - to cover his bases. 4 minions to assist in world conquering, and should they somehow manage to break free, they think the best action possible happens to be Yogg's plan B - destruction of his physical body.

Ukerric · 01/05/11, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Sharilar

Also recall just who they're based on. The Lovecraftian Old Ones and such were supposed to be so far beyond mortal understanding that they'd seem insane, even if they aren't.

Sometimes, I'm reminded of Vernor Vinge's A Fire Upon the Deep. It features Transcendental Powers that are essentially un-imaginable. In it, the bad guy is "so petty and banal that even creatures like you and I can see it's evil".

(The parallels with the local situation being that the Blight, the bad guy in question perverted and essentially built an entire existing race as potential servants. Instead of the Curse of Flesh, it's the Curse of Memory, as the existing species was literally incapable of forming memories, existing in an eternal present).

Kuku · 01/05/11, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Nathanyel

Sara yells: Yes! YES! Show them no mercy! Give no pause to your attacks!

I think this implies that by becoming more brutal, we are taking a step towards serving the Old Gods in the end.
Though this sounds awfully like a) the Emperor's attempts to sway Luke to the Dark Side and b) the campaign against the Lich King, who planned to just let "the heroes" prove their worth against his minions, only to simply grab them as his new champions (Fury of Frostmourne) which in turn mirrors Arthas' own path of damnation.

I think it implies that she wants us to kill them without waiting, without strategy. Remember, they blow up when they die. If we follow her advice, we wipe.

I'm willing to bet that line has no hidden meaning and is simply referring to a mechanic in the fight.