World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 678

Leviathon · 01/20/11, 9:17 PM

Originally Posted by Zulkeir

And yet Nefarion is perfectly willing to toss whelps to his mad scientist who consistently fails.

I'm not sure if Nefarian or most other Black Dragons are the best examples.

Ukerric · 01/21/11, 6:57 AM

Originally Posted by Bierzkrieg

Whoa, there, Ukerric, you're forgetting something that's pretty easy to overlook...

Actually, I'm not.

Really.

Think about it. You're in age, time to get some babies. You lay down...

... a hundred to two hundred eggs. From which about two, maybe three will survive to adulthood, while the rest will, mathematically, die as children or even before hatched (I say "mathematically" because if even over half of a hundred brood survive to adulthood and reproductive age, the planet dies under the weight of their flesh in a couple generations).

How attached, emotionally, are you to a random freshly hatched whelp?

It's not a matter of sentience. It's a matter of numbers. Profligate breeders don't behave as we do; we should not expect them to do so.

It's absolutely the same to kill a dragon whelp or a draenei child.

No, it's not. It feels like that for us, humans, because we're low-intensity breeders, who invest a lot into a very small number of children - like Draenei. But, if you have five hundred children, and you expect all but a couple to die before adulthood, you will simply not care about them the way you care about one of your five children, all precious because one death means so much in relation to each other.

Of course, we can't imagine ourselves in that mind set. The death of a child is tragic for us, because we have so few. Even then, old civilisations had a different approach to that. There were human cultures where a child wouldn't even get a name before he's a year or so, and its parents start expecting him to have a good chance of survival. You simply couldn't afford to get too attached emotionally to a child, when said child had 4 chances in 5 to die before next spring.

Look at their behaviour towards consorts, they tend to form strong bonds.

We're talking about mature, adult survivors. These are different. Adults are precious. But children destined to die?

Of course, it feels weird. Because, if depicted correctly, dragons are really aliens. They do have a different way of thinking about life, because their life is entirely differently shaped, from different pressures. And, of course, the worst form of storytelling would be to make them into "people in funny winged suits", like most sci-fi depiction of aliens.

Bierzkrieg · 01/21/11, 7:37 AM

Strong points, I agree that the amount of eggs dragons lay hints at them being "reptilian" as far as their offspring is concerned - "hatch and survive". Yet their (very) sentient nature may indicate otherwise. But dragons do possess the "larger scope" vision of life I mentioned earlier, so it might be that they do indeed regard their young's deaths rather rationally and naturally - as much as a parent can, in the animal kingdom.

Turalyon, though, didn't treat those black dragon (and being of this flight should be an incentive) eggs as some other pest's. Because, the issue isn't so much the impact that killing baby dragons has on the species' societal structure or their values, but rather how that action fits into the Horde and Alliance's morals and values. Turalyon understood that inside those eggs were carnivorous firebreathers the size of a man and easily capable of killing one. But he also knew that those killers were of a completely sentient, rational and civilized species and that therein lay a threshold.

Cireena · 01/21/11, 8:08 AM

Ukerric, I do not believe they would as unconcerned as you suggest. While I agree with most of your points, you have to consider that they do see the bigger picture. Most of their eggs never producing an adult in as expected, but wholesale slaughter of their young could lead to extinction and they are intelligent enough to see the difference. Look at the quest chain in TH where you kill the last broodmother of the blacks. I am sure She saw the difference and cared much more about each egg at that point.

AJAlkaline · 01/21/11, 9:05 AM

By the way, where do dragonkin come from?

Tinwhisker · 01/21/11, 9:59 AM

Originally Posted by AJAlkaline

By the way, where do dragonkin come from?

I've always assumed that the various flavors of dragonkin were the result of the way they were born/developed/raised. Much like bees, when they need more drones or a new queen they simply alter the way the larva is fed and cared for. For dragons, they probably all start as eggs to whelp but then paths diverge to Wyrm, Dragon, Drake, Drakeadon, Drakonid and maybe even Aspect.

Bierzkrieg · 01/21/11, 12:37 PM

Wowpedia has some answers on that. Here's what I can gather:

Dragonspawn are former mortal servants who've become mutated from the exposure to draconic magic. The Wowpedia article mentions their absolute fervor in serving their respective Flight Aspect and that they're treated as a slave-race. I do doubt this last point, seeing as they ascend to generals and even command drakes, even in the black flight. So they're probably regarded in the same light as Drakonids.

Drakonids are footsoldiers of the flights, but they're "purer" than dragonspawn, being a different, "inferior" strain and not deriving from mortals or other races.

The two-headed dragon-hound in Blackwing Lair, Chromaggus, is the result of an experiment.

Dragonmen like Maloriak...no clue.

Proto-Dragons are modern dragons' "patch 0.9". They're the earlier version of modern dragons. Galakrond was the first proto-dragon (the first dragonkin, actually), and Alextrasza said it was from them that the Titans created the Aspects. Not sure what they meant, but it's assumed he was a proto-dragon and not one of the modern kind. Either way, the proto-dragon model we know is a bit drake-ish, so maybe he was different from the protos we know.

Dragons as we know are the Titans' creations, engineered to safeguard the world's main elements (not in the shamanistic sense, though): Life, Time, Earth, Nature and Magic.

Malleus · 01/21/11, 4:23 PM

Originally Posted by AJAlkaline

By the way, where do dragonkin come from?

Well, AJ, sometimes, when a mummy and a dragon love each other very much...

Bierz: when Maloriak dies, he says "there will never be another like me". Given his obsession with alchemy and the effects of stimuli onpohysical anatomy, it would seem reasonable to surmise that he transmuted himself with one of his alchemical experiments.

Nathanyel · 01/21/11, 5:26 PM

Maloriak is likely "simply" the science nerd in Neltharion's greater family, physically weaker than other dragons (I know, tanks might object) but way more adept at experiments etc.
He walks upright and uses his front paws for interaction with objects like a humanoid, but I'd say this posture rather comes from centuries of training and maybe a bit of magic/alchemy/surgery involved, up to trimming his wings so that they don't get in the way, than from being bred or created in this shape.

AJAlkaline · 01/22/11, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Nathanyel

Maloriak is likely "simply" the science nerd in Neltharion's greater family, physically weaker than other dragons (I know, tanks might object) but way more adept at experiments etc.
He walks upright and uses his front paws for interaction with objects like a humanoid, but I'd say this posture rather comes from centuries of training and maybe a bit of magic/alchemy/surgery involved, up to trimming his wings so that they don't get in the way, than from being bred or created in this shape.

Sinestra has a similar sort of upright posture.

Bierzkrieg · 01/24/11, 6:41 AM

I'd say that's for gameplay/iconicity/reminescence purposes. Looks awkward as hell, too, in Sinestra's case.

Exemplar · 01/24/11, 8:57 AM

I have not experienced Sinestra, but I received more the impression she was immobile and somewhat propped up. I had been guessing spinal damage or possibly amputation of one/both legs and possibly the tail. She didn't die in whichever book, but was instead crippled by the damage.

On the other claw, Maloriak intentionally self-mutilating to make his work easier to perform makes excellent sense.

TSplodey · 01/24/11, 9:08 AM

Shes a reskin of Kil'jaeden. I doubt there's a lore reason behind it.

Kirion · 01/25/11, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by TSplodey

Shes a reskin of Kil'jaeden. I doubt there's a lore reason behind it.

How about mating with big burning dragon? =)

I wonder who is the Heir of Red Dragonflight now that Calen died.

Bierzkrieg · 01/25/11, 11:59 AM

So, can anyone give any insight into the Sinestra encounter? I haven't been able to see the video - look Ma, no flash! - but apparently Calen dies. Guess that's one more step towards Alextrasza going berserk.