World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 681

PsiVen · 03/09/11, 7:24 PM

Originally Posted by Fnar

I think that the two things are inextricably linked though, the old gods began the decline of the flights over 10,000 years ago with the fall of Neltharion and the creation of the Demon Soul. We as mortals are now witnessing the effect that this gambit by the old gods has had there is already 1 aspect down and we will be killing another one in just over a year's time. The aspects were one of the security measures left by the titans to protect Azeroth from the Old Gods and now members of the black flight are working for the old gods, greens have an old god to contend with behind the emerald nightmare, the bronzes have been heavily involved in the AQ arc, the blues have been decimated (they may be regrouping but their flight was already tiny in number before the nexus war, and Alexstrasza's heir has now been killed by Sinestra. I think this is all leading up to the point where Dragons can eventually no longer play a leading role in events on Azeroth, and it is a recurring theme in fantasy that the older races eventually go into decline and younger mortal races take up the mantle of defenders of the world. So i guess before we can reach the point where Dragons are no longer front and centre, we need to finish the realisation of their decline.

I agree; the plots have long involved dragons, and it just so happens that WotLK and Cataclysm have brought those storylines to a head. Even if Malygos hadn't gone crazy and been killed off, he would have been an important figure having unresolved conflict with the Lich King. Dragonblight was always waiting for us in Northrend and Frostwyrms have always been iconic of the Scourge armies. Ulduar had only a cursory dragon fight involving a Proto-Drake that was heavily tied into the lore of Storm Peaks (at least, I think she was supposed to be Thorim's drake) and it was fairly unique at that. I don't think the overuse of dragons is borne out of laziness, as Deathwing bringing about the Cataclysm obviously makes the black dragonflight and their subplots the main content of this expansion.

If anything, I think it felt a little forced to bring the other elemental planes into this, while not really having the chance to touch on the waterlords vs. firelords dynamic that was weakly fleshed out in Vanilla. Hopefully the Firelands raid and possible corresponding Abyssal raid will clear that up for a coherent tier. Al'Akir seems to be destined for the same fate that Malygos was, but at least his role in the expansion wasn't played up as much.

Blayze · 03/15/11, 5:34 PM

Originally Posted by Nathanyel

I'm smelling another rescue encounter.

Good call. However...

YouTube - Cataclysm - Heroic Zul'Gurub Dungeon and Boss Guide (Complete)

It, er, seems we're freeing Hakkar.

Nathanyel · 03/16/11, 10:48 AM

uh, I was talking about Alysra.

Originally Posted by Blayze

It, er, seems we're freeing Hakkar.

Well for now it seems we prevent Jindo from enslaving Hakkar. I hope that quests or similar will at least hint at what happens afterwords in the spirit world.

Exemplar · 03/16/11, 12:20 PM

Sounds like a weaving of the Zul'drak storyline (killing Loa for their powers) and the old ZG Hakkar thread. Which is somewhat odd for several reasons. First, everything we know of Hakkar makes him sound like an aberration or Old God related rather than a Loa. Second, Jin'do wasn't even a horse (ritualist ridden by a Loa) to begin with, instead he was a Shaman with necromantic powers. Finally, Jin'do was somewhat dead when the Zul'drak trolls got the idea to kill Loa, so where he even gets the idea to drain Hakkar is odd. Especially since it sounds like they're still channeling the other Loa, not killing them.

I'll admit to being annoyed that Venoxis is again present (reference Venoxis Achieve on PTR), considering the Cape of Strangelthorn quest let me kill him before he was fully resurrected. If Blizzard wanted a set outcome, they should have made him one of the never-drops-below-1-hp mobs. After destroying Jeklik, I find it rather lame that it's possible to re-kill/prevent-rez Venoxis but the quest and lore are going to state that we failed to do so. We'll kill him three times - that's more than even Kael'thas...

Cybsled · 03/16/11, 7:38 PM

My memory may be in error, but didn't we just fully prevent the Bat Boss from being resurrected, but we have to be rescued during our attempt to stop Venoxis from being res'd? Jindo casts that spell on you and the flying machine flies in and pulls you out before you are killed.

Emeraude · 03/17/11, 6:11 AM

Correct.

"I ask you to slay Zanzil the Outcast, a lowly, hermetic exile of the Gurubashi, and what do you do? You dash headfirst into the Gurubashi capital and eliminate one of their High Priests! Very nearly two! Only one word suffices to explain such a rash and foolhardy endeavor:

Heroism.

Jin'do the Hexxer still walks within Zul'Gurub's walls, but he lost one of his legs when you crushed Jeklik. Today's battle is ours. "

Exemplar · 03/17/11, 9:26 AM

During the quest involving Venoxis it is 100% possible to kill Venoxis (unless this has been patched since late November) - I recall looting the normal amount of silver and copper from a corpse of his level. You still have Jin'do cast and are required to be airlifted out or be one-shot.

My point is that the game permits Venoxis's death, while the questline states you tried and failed. If that is the intent, he should have been an unkillable mob. Needless to say, when I performed the quest I was considerably confused why Zanzil, Jin'do, and the quest giver all claimed I'd failed to stop Venoxis.

As a solo character of appropriate level, it may be impossible to kill Venoxis as the Jin'do/failure stage likely occurs on a timer or at a set % of Venoxis's health. That being said, at max level he was killable and I would be unsurprised to find him killable by a full group of toons of the appropriate level. If we're not supposed to kill him... don't let us kill him.

Nathanyel · 03/17/11, 10:32 AM

Gameplay is gameplay, though, and not the "official story". You can kill Nemesis in the Flamewake despite Hamuul Runetotem himself stating that he can't be defeated yet.
It's not intended and it's very unlikely to be done by a player of appropriate level, so it still fits.

Light4 · 03/17/11, 11:18 AM

Venoxis has been patched and remained at 1 HP when I tried to kill him as of late February/ early March.

Cybsled · 03/17/11, 7:15 PM

My point is that the game permits Venoxis's death, while the questline states you tried and failed. If that is the intent, he should have been an unkillable mob. Needless to say, when I performed the quest I was considerably confused why Zanzil, Jin'do, and the quest giver all claimed I'd failed to stop Venoxis.

As a solo character of appropriate level, it may be impossible to kill Venoxis as the Jin'do/failure stage likely occurs on a timer or at a set % of Venoxis's health. That being said, at max level he was killable and I would be unsurprised to find him killable by a full group of toons of the appropriate level. If we're not supposed to kill him... don't let us kill him.

As has been stated, it's a game oversight. A good example I can think of regarding Storyline not matching Gameplay is Secret of Mana. During the final battle, that little sprite guy says if he uses mana magic or whatever during the battle, he will have to vanish from the world forever. So I do the entire final boss battle without using that magic once...and he still vanishes.

WoW has lots of "oh geez, we didn't think you'd actually kill it that fast" encounters. The Rend fight in UBRS used to bug out something fierce if you killed the drake before Rend could dismount (he would never spawn, thus you were trapped in the arena). Also during WOTLK beta, there was a bug with DK where they could literally do 1-3million damage a hit. We decided to run Sunwell Plateau and when we did the Mu'ro fight, Mu'ro died so fast that the next phase of the encounter never spawned.

dustdog · 03/20/11, 10:31 AM

I was finishing up the Zul'Gurub questline tonight, and was a bit surprised how abruptly the Mosh'ogg Bounty questline finished. A bit of poking around led me to finding Airwyn's Journal - Object - World of Warcraft but i can't see it there behind the stove near Airwyn, or the one downstairs. Is it not actually in game, or does Booty Bay have phasing which is locking it out?

Krixooks · 03/20/11, 8:31 PM

So I hear that we are now fighting the Zandalar...

Appearently, the Zandalar are calling for a unification of all troll tribes including Amani (Zul'Aman), Gurubashi (Zul'Gurub/Stranglethorn Vale), and Darkspear (Horde) under the Zandalarian banner.
(Would I be safe in assuming that the sand trolls of Zul'Farrak and Drakkari of Zul'drak are also in this "Unified Trolls" idea?)
Obviously, unified trolls would be bad for the Alliance
As for why the Horde don't want the unification, the Darkspear want to remain Horde.

And this is from wowpedia on the Vol'jin page:

Later, Vol'jin sends emissaries to both the Horde and the Alliance, for assistance in dealing with the presence of a new troll empire brewing in Zul'Aman. He meets with the ranger-general of Silvermoon City, Halduron Brightwing, and Vereesa Windrunner to deal with this threat.

Silvermoon Messenger says: I bring word from the Regent Lord of Silvermoon.
Silvermoon Messenger says: Lord Lor'themar demands an explanation for the presence of this... exile in our lands.
Vereesa Windrunner says: Quel'Thalas is as much my home as it is yours and I would not see it fall to our ancient enemy. Now, you tell your cowardly regent --
Halduron Brightwing says: Vereesa, please!
Halduron Brightwing says: She is here at my invitation, courier. Most of my Farstriders are away and cannot be recalled easily. Vereesa's rangers know the land and are experienced combatants.
Silvermoon Messenger says: Lord Lor'themar does not concur with your reasoning, ranger-general. You have no authority to invite this --
Halduron Brightwing says: I am the commander of Silvermoon's defenses and I will seek assistance as I deem necessary!
Halduron Brightwing says: Now, Chieftain Vol'jin, before we were so rudely interrupted, you were telling us of the Zandalari's plans.
Vol'jin says: Dat I was. Da Zandalari called a meeting 'o all da troll tribes includin' da Darkspears.
Vol'jin says: King Rastakhan, he be plannin' to unite da troll tribes under his Zandalari.
Vereesa Windrunner says: Including the Amani?
Vol'jin says: Da Amani, da Gurubashi, all 'o dem. He be dispatchin' emissaries to every tribe.
Halduron Bringwing says: My scouts have reported nothing but quiet outside Zul'Aman.
Vol'jin says: Dey be holed up inside da ruined city, regroupin'.
Vol'jin says: Rastakhan be callin' me his brother, but da Horde be our true brothers. We gotta stop him before he can sweet-talk the others into joinin' his empire.
Vereesa Windrunner says: So how are we going to deal with this alliance between the Amani and the Zandalari?
Halduron Brightwing says: We must prevent it from occurring in the first place.
Vol'jin says: Dat be da plan. My men be infiltratin' the city and learnin' what dey can about da new Zandalari warlord.
Vereesa Windrunner says: Halduron, we should combine our forces and make preperations to act on reports from the Darkspear scouts.
Halduron Brightwing says: Agreed. Messenger, you may carry word of our plans back to Lord Lor'themar, but make it clear that I will not tolerate any further interference.

On the upside, at least that idiot Budd isn't involved this time and we have some real factions taking action

I haven't been playing much lately nor have I been on the PTR for this latest patch, is there any dialogue between the Zandalari emissaries and Vol'jin?

Honestly if I were Vol'jin I would actually consider joining the other troll tribes over the Horde at this point, see:

Vision of Vol'jin says: Ya be no Warchief of mine. Ya've not earned my respect and I'll not be seein' tha Horde destroyed by ya foolish thirst for war.
Vision of Garrosh Hellscream says: And what exactly do you think that you'll do about it? Your threats are hollow. Go slink away with the rest of your kind in the slums. I will endure your filth in my throne room no longer.

I know, I know, gameplay>lore...

It seems odd that the Zandalari have suddenly turned around from being somewhat passive lorekeepers to a threat to the free world.
I suppose the next step is a later patch in which we invade Zandalar and kill King Rastakhan.

Starfire · 03/20/11, 9:01 PM

I doubt we'd see King Rastakhan now. He seems more fitting for the next expansion with Queen Azshara and the rest of the South Seas.

Also, we have yet to fight Frost King Malakk, so he's another good villain Blizzard can use to setup another expansion.

Though, I suppose we did receive hints of Kul'Tiras coming later. Possibly later this expansion with a lot of patched in content for ~4.4/4.5 or whatever.

And even with this lore build up, some of it really doesn't make sense. Like the Zandalari npcs in Stranglethorn still aiding us against the Hakkari.

To me, this sounds more like a little tweaking/foreshadowing hinting at a next expansion, similar to how we had Obsidium Sanctum and Ruby Sanctum.

Nathanyel · 03/20/11, 9:21 PM

Originally Posted by Krixooks

So I hear that we are now fighting the Zandalar...

That's the first I hear about that o.O

It seems odd that the Zandalari have suddenly turned around from being somewhat passive lorekeepers to a threat to the free world.

Odd indeed - considering the questgivers inside Zul'Gurub are Zandalari. We work with them in Zul'Gurub, to liberate their possible allies, and then go to Zul'Aman to kill their possible allies?

Leviathon · 03/21/11, 1:21 AM

Originally Posted by Nathanyel

That's the first I hear about that o.O

Odd indeed - considering the questgivers inside Zul'Gurub are Zandalari. We work with them in Zul'Gurub, to liberate their possible allies, and then go to Zul'Aman to kill their possible allies?

They were replaced by Darkspear.