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Old 08/05/11, 1:32 PM   #10411
Tinwhisker
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Scarlet Crusade
True as that might be, that doesn't mean that the change was actually good. Those stages are just a coping mechanism; a scar that heals over a wound. After it's healed you tend not to notice it but it's always there.


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Old 08/06/11, 5:30 AM   #10412
Tyrian
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Frostmourne
If "Mists of Pandaria" is the real title of the expansion, I worry that it's too narrow of a title, for too focused an event.
I think quotes like this are delving too deep into semantics. "Mists of Pandaria" can be compared to "Snows of Northrend". The whole place isn't covered in snow, and it's not even strictly solely about the snow, it's more a generic reference to the collective beauty / majesty / grandeur of the continent.

"Mists" may as well be replaced with "Mysteries". Like everyone, i'm wondering what exactly could be planned to make compelling Mysteries in Pandaria - enough for an entire expansion - leaving you compelled to adventure through said mists and go forth to answer.

Most interestingly, I don't see how the Old Gods / Sargeras + Burning Legion / Titan / Ally VS Horde / Azshara story arcs would easily tie in. Since these collectively are the big story arcs in the WoW universe, one wonders where exactly the Pandaria story could take us. Something wholly new?

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Old 08/06/11, 6:39 PM   #10413
Mr. Crow
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Medivh
Originally Posted by Tyrian View Post
Most interestingly, I don't see how the Old Gods / Sargeras + Burning Legion / Titan / Ally VS Horde / Azshara story arcs would easily tie in. Since these collectively are the big story arcs in the WoW universe, one wonders where exactly the Pandaria story could take us. Something wholly new?
For the sake of argument:

We know the Azshara storyline has been built up considerably throughout Vashj'ir and TotT, and Aszhara is one of the known super-powered beings who hasn't been Dealt With quite yet. Even with the potentiality of a War of the Ancients raid, that only gives us the pre-Naga Azshara, not the monstrous powerful entity she's become. So, a Mists of Pandaria expansion could deal with Azshara taking over Pandaria as a staging area for making an two-pronged assault on Orgrimmar and Stormwind.

So too with Azshara goes the Old God storyline. The Neptulon storyline (even abandoned as it was) demonstrated that while Neptulon wasn't interested in working for the Old Gods, the Old Gods were fine sending Faceless Ones to aid Azshara's sorties in Vashj'ir. Azshara is the next Champion for the Old Gods after Deathwing gets brought low, either because she's still marshalling her power or because she's hunting for something that will help her present an even greater than old Chisel-jaw...

All of the continents have some kind of Titan facility in one state of repair or another; Ulduman in Eastern Kingdoms, the Un'goro/Uldum complex in southern Kalimdor, and Terramok in Desolace, and both Sholazar Basin and the Ulduar facility in Northrend. The Titans surely have structures on Pandaria, and it may be that like the Tol'vir, the Pandaren were once Titan Constructs that were protecting their masters hardware from tampering. It might even explain why Pandaria has remained hidden for so long. If the Old Gods & Azshara have turned their eye to the next Titan superweapon and/or Old God prison cell, that could give us the motivation to chase them down and put a stop to it.

The Old God storyline also stands a good chance of going into overdrive once we kill Neltharion -- as the Aspect of Earth, his charge was guarding the deep places of the world, which includes the prisons of the Old Gods. Killing Deathwing (or more appropriately, corrupting Deathwing so he'd get HIMSELF killed by US) may have been the objective of the Old Gods all along, because with their jailor dead, the inmates have a greater freedom to break out of the asylum.

So, how does Pandaria play into the escalation of the Horde vs. Alliance narrative, which is arguably older and more important than the Old Gods narrative? The simplest answer is that both factions want to bring the Pandaren (and whoever else may be on Pandaria) into their team in order to get an advantage on the other side. Instead of a racial group petitioning for entry due to common enemies (the Blood Elves), a racial group being discovered as a result of prophecy, racial history and geographic convenience (the Draenei), or a decimated, somewhat isolated racial unit clinging to the greater faction as a lifeline due the destruction of its homeland (the Bilgewater Cartel AND the Gilneans), we'd have the first instance where an established faction is being openly courted by the leaders of both the Alliance AND the Horde. That's a big change in the paradigm, AND supports a state where the Pandaren are either a non-playable race or the first neutral race that can select a faction (which will hopefully be an irreversible choice.)

All that being said... Mists will need to bring a LOT of interesting advancements to the table in order to up the game from Cataclysm.

Last edited by Mr. Crow : 08/06/11 at 6:40 PM. Reason: Cata, not Wrath.

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Old 08/06/11, 6:49 PM   #10414
Molakar
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Mr. Crow, very well written post I must say and I think it's very plausible. But I reacted to one thing.

Originally Posted by Mr. Crow View Post
The Old God storyline also stands a good chance of going into overdrive once we kill Neltharion -- as the Aspect of Earth, his charge was guarding the deep places of the world, which includes the prisons of the Old Gods. Killing Deathwing (or more appropriately, corrupting Deathwing so he'd get HIMSELF killed by US) may have been the objective of the Old Gods all along, because with their jailor dead, the inmates have a greater freedom to break out of the asylum.
If you have corrupted the jailor for your prison (or just have him on your side), why don't you have him open the cell instead of having him killed so you can break out?

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Old 08/06/11, 6:49 PM   #10415
Starfire
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Dragonblight
Just pointing this out. Everyone is also making the assumption Pandaria is a continent on Azeroth. For all we know Pandaria could be an entirely different world. It could be an entire planet with who knows what method of arriving to Azeroth.

We know the Dark Portal isn't the only way to Azeroth. For example, we have the Draenei.

Overall, I think this discussion is silly. We've had 1 page of discussion solely on a title which more or less has TWO words in it.

Originally Posted by arison View Post
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.

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Old 08/06/11, 7:10 PM   #10416
Blayze
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Human Warrior
 
Hellscream (EU)
If you have corrupted the jailor for your prison (or just have him on your side), why don't you have him open the cell instead of having him killed so you can break out?
Deathwing has a nasty habit of trying to grab power for himself, and to hell with everyone else. The Old Gods learned this for themselves during the War of the Ancients (Knaak version), when he tried to break through force the barrier they placed to prevent him from recovering the Demon Soul.

Perhaps they don't trust that he won't try to betray them again.

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Old 08/06/11, 7:12 PM   #10417
Malleus
King Hippo
 
Human Paladin
 
Bronze Dragonflight (EU)
Originally Posted by Molakar View Post
If you have corrupted the jailor for your prison (or just have him on your side), why don't you have him open the cell instead of having him killed so you can break out?
You're thinking of it in terms of his holding the key to the door of the Old Gods' cell, but it may not be that simple. It's entirely possible that the seal on their prison is maintained by Neltharion's life force, and it cannot break while he is still alive. Feeding Deathwing's megalomania and ego to the point where he takes on an enemy capable of killing him would surely be easier than trying to convince him to kill himself.

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Old 08/06/11, 7:18 PM   #10418
Mr. Crow
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Originally Posted by Starfire View Post
Just pointing this out. Everyone is also making the assumption Pandaria is a continent on Azeroth. For all we know Pandaria could be an entirely different world. It could be an entire planet with who knows what method of arriving to Azeroth.

We know the Dark Portal isn't the only way to Azeroth. For example, we have the Draenei.
All prior evidence seems to point to Pandaria being a continent on Azeroth, but since a lot of that evidence comes from the RPG books (and Occam's Razor) it IS just as likely that Pandaria is another world.

Despite my long-winded theories to the contrary, I am hoping that this is not the next expansion. It is clearly rubbing a lot of people the wrong way, and it would be foolish for Blizzard to move ahead with something that is this divisive.

I'm looking at you, lurking Blizzard CMs/CDevs.

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Old 08/06/11, 7:50 PM   #10419
Tyrian
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We know from WoW mythology that there's something very special about Azeroth. The reasons for why this is true have never been fully fleshed out or explained. We just know Azeroth is unique in the cosmos. Presumably, the reasons why would be of immense interest to the big power players in Warcraft (Titans, Legion, Azshara, Old Gods etc).

I could quite easily see a "Mists of Pandaria" story arc encompassing what it is exactly that makes Azeroth so special. This would tie in the other aforementioned groups nicely. Maybe there's a cosmic nexus of sorts hidden in Pandaria. Maybe a renegade group of real Titans have been (secretly) living there all this time - and are the true source of Azeroth's unnaturally strong magics.

Last edited by Tyrian : 08/06/11 at 8:00 PM.

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Old 08/07/11, 4:22 AM   #10420
Fnar
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Moonglade (EU)
Originally Posted by Mr. Crow View Post

Despite my long-winded theories to the contrary, I am hoping that this is not the next expansion. It is clearly rubbing a lot of people the wrong way, and it would be foolish for Blizzard to move ahead with something that is this divisive.

I'm looking at you, lurking Blizzard CMs/CDevs.

I think looking at this realistically there are 2 sections of the wow community, a minority who actually care about the lore and a majority who would fight a grey, generic, textureless cube as long as it dropped purples or had fun and cool mechanics (phase 15 of Cuberon was known to have caused many a /gdisband back in the day). Of this minority, many will be those who have been campaigning for Pandaren in wow since vanilla so I think the number of people who are upset by this will be equal to those who are delighted by the Idea, and both will be dwarfed by those whose only concerns are 'will Blizzard finally fix my class in this expac?' and 'when will we have the dance studio we were promised?'

Also at the moment it's just a title, while it may put people off, if they like what they see of beta footage/reviews etc they will buy it and they will play it. Then they will go on the forums and QQ about it.

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Old 08/07/11, 4:28 AM   #10421
Malleus
King Hippo
 
Human Paladin
 
Bronze Dragonflight (EU)
Originally Posted by Tyrian View Post
We know from WoW mythology that there's something very special about Azeroth. The reasons for why this is true have never been fully fleshed out or explained. We just know Azeroth is unique in the cosmos. Presumably, the reasons why would be of immense interest to the big power players in Warcraft (Titans, Legion, Azshara, Old Gods etc).
The Titans are interested in Azeroth because they imprisoned the Old Gods there. Azshara's interested in Azeroth because she's a native; her use of arcane magic is what initially drew Sargeras there, and the discovery of the Old Gods' prison is what caused him and his Legion to remain. That leaves only the question of why the Old Gods showed up in the first place.

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Old 08/07/11, 2:14 PM   #10422
Emeraude
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Sargeras
Yeah, but the Old Gods were already here before the Titans showed up, like Azeroth was their baby right? Then the Titans showed up and were like "We are awersome!" and locked them up, and made a bunch of stone people to live in stoney perfection, but the Old Gods were like "f that!" and made us all turn fleshy and age....or something along those lines.

Point is, if there is something special about Azeroth, it's most likey due to those Old Gods in the first place right?

What is the most important thing to you? Won't you grant me the pleasure of taking it away.

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Old 08/08/11, 3:22 AM   #10423
Kirion
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Tauren Shaman
 
Deathwing (EU)
Originally Posted by Emeraude View Post
Yeah, but the Old Gods were already here before the Titans showed up, like Azeroth was their baby right? Then the Titans showed up and were like "We are awersome!" and locked them up, and made a bunch of stone people to live in stoney perfection, but the Old Gods were like "f that!" and made us all turn fleshy and age....or something along those lines.

Point is, if there is something special about Azeroth, it's most likey due to those Old Gods in the first place right?
Also Well of Eternity. It's not clear if it was created before Titans, but Old Gods could be drawn to it's power.

42.

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Old 08/08/11, 7:34 AM   #10424
Light4
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Gnome Mage
 
Antonidas (EU)
Originally Posted by Emeraude View Post
Yeah, but the Old Gods were already here before the Titans showed up, like Azeroth was their baby right? Then the Titans showed up and were like "We are awersome!" and locked them up, and made a bunch of stone people to live in stoney perfection, but the Old Gods were like "f that!" and made us all turn fleshy and age....or something along those lines.

Point is, if there is something special about Azeroth, it's most likey due to those Old Gods in the first place right?
If I remember correctly, the Titans created the Azerothian matrix (some kind of severe Terraforming), which got infected by the Old Gods. So the Titans had to decide whether to start over or contain the infection and chose the latter. What strikes me is whether the re-origination device in Uldum would also destroy the Old Gods, since they were not part of the blueprints. If that would indeed be the case, Deathwing might have been interested in the place to get rid of his supervisors.

I imagine something happening among the Titans like:

- Hmm, we got an infection here, lets just clean that up.
- Ok, I'll just built some re-origination device to reset the planet.
- Sir, simulations have shown that the re-origination with the parasites in place would probably lead to the destruction of the planet.
- Goddamnit, then chain 'em up some place deep and put some life forms around to keep watch.

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Old 08/08/11, 11:39 AM   #10425
Mr. Crow
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Originally Posted by Kirion View Post
Also Well of Eternity. It's not clear if it was created before Titans, but Old Gods could be drawn to it's power.
That would be rather vindictive of the Titans, don't you think?

Cb-OldGods: You may have defeated us, Teen Titans, but you cannot destroy us!
Cb-Titans: Well, Tentacle-face, you may be right. Here you go: you're chained to this world, trapped within sight of That Well-of-Eternity Thing you desperately fought us for. We know it's dangerous, we know we should remove it, because if for any reason all our defense systems, Dragon servants, and Forge of Will'd constructs should fail, you'll get what you want and we likely won't be here to stop you. But no: we're going to leave it here, tantalizing you, torturing you with it's closeness, for all time, while you can do nothing but slaver and watch from your prisons deep within the depths of the world.
Cb-OldGods: You cruel bastards!
Cb-Titans: (to Neltharion) See that they never get out, like, ever. Not even if they ask really, really nice.
Cb-Neltharion: You can count on me.

All joking aside, I would argue that if the Old Gods had wanted anything out of the Well, they would have been nudging the Night Elves for it long before the War of the Ancients. As a bonus, if the Well's waters were going to be useful to them, wouldn't we have seen the Twilight's Hammer trying to hunt down the Vials of Eternity? Twilights vs. the Bronze Flight, Twilights dogging Illidan/Vashj/Kael'thas' respective trails in Outland, looking for clues of the Vials' location... All told, it actually sounds like something of a cool narrative, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence to suggest that this is happening.

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