World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 698

DreadtheDamned · 08/15/11, 1:34 AM

Originally Posted by Molakar

Both seem like plausible explanations but the titans usually create things that are iron and/or stone and the proto-dragons are kinda...fleshy!

This is true and for all we know, that's how they started out, as iron or stone. But as with the Earthen, they might have also succumbed to the Curse of Flesh and thus that is how we know them today, as their fleshy selves.

Another point for this case, is Thorim's proto-dragon mount, Veranus. She was captured by Loken and turned in the iron proto-dragon Razorscale. Which leads me to this: If the proto-dragons were originally iron and turned into flesh from the Curse, it stands to reason that they could be 'de-Cursed' and turned back into iron, such as in Razorscale's case (and like the mecha-gnomes in Borean Tundra being de-Cursed).

Also, whether they count or not, don't forget that Rusted and Iron-bound proto-drakes are around as well. Perhaps they are among a select few who have managed to escape the Curse of Flesh.

Molakar · 08/15/11, 3:06 AM

Originally Posted by DreadtheDamned

This is true and for all we know, that's how they started out, as iron or stone. But as with the Earthen, they might have also succumbed to the Curse of Flesh and thus that is how we know them today, as their fleshy selves.

Another point for this case, is Thorim's proto-dragon mount, Veranus. She was captured by Loken and turned in the iron proto-dragon Razorscale. Which leads me to this: If the proto-dragons were originally iron and turned into flesh from the Curse, it stands to reason that they could be 'de-Cursed' and turned back into iron, such as in Razorscale's case (and like the mecha-gnomes in Borean Tundra being de-Cursed).

Also, whether they count or not, don't forget that Rusted and Iron-bound proto-drakes are around as well. Perhaps they are among a select few who have managed to escape the Curse of Flesh.

Well Veranus/Razorscale isn't a iron proto-dragon, she's a blue proto-dragon that had metal plates fused to her body by Ignis after being captured by Loken during the quest "The Reckoning". Nothing points to her being "de-cursified" and Veranus is now a "plated proto-dragon" instead of a "iron proto-dragon", the Rusted and Iron-Bound proto-drakes are also from this flight. The letter you get from Brann Bronzebeard when you complete the achievement to get the Iron-bound proto-drake says that Brann and his pals patched the dragon up and I assume that it means both nursing it to health and ironclading it.

All the de-cursed races still have their equivalent un-cursed race in the game: The dwarves can meet the earthes in Ulduar, Uldaman, Uldum, Deepholm etc, the troggs can take a trip to Deepholm to meet the stonetroggs, if the gnomes venture to Ulduar and the Storm Peaks they can meet the mechagnomes etc etc. But we've never seen an in-game stone proto dragon and that leads me to believe that the proto-dragons never were a titan creation in the first place.

Malleus · 08/15/11, 3:49 AM

Originally Posted by Molakar

But we've never seen an in-game stone proto dragon and that leads me to believe that the proto-dragons never were a titan creation in the first place.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence; it could just be the case that stone proto-dragons genuinely are extinct. We have seen stone drakes in Deepholm, and they appear to be native. If dragons descended from proto-dragons, then logically stone dragons descended from stone proto-dragons.

Molakar · 08/15/11, 6:11 AM

Originally Posted by Malleus

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence; it could just be the case that stone proto-dragons genuinely are extinct. We have seen stone drakes in Deepholm, and they appear to be native. If dragons descended from proto-dragons, then logically stone dragons descended from stone proto-dragons.

Well the drakes are inhabitants of the elemental plane, a prison plane constructed by the titans. They don't seem to be sentient like other drakes or titan creations like troggs, earthens and mechagnomes. If it weren't for the fact that they aren't in league with Therazane I'd say that they are either her creation or that they belong to her. But then again they might have been Therazane's creation or might have belonged to her in the first place and switched allegiance to Deathwing when he came to Deepholm after his defeat in Day of the Dragon.

Then again, CDev said that the stone drakes may be the origin of both proto-dragons and dragons but I really don't get it since I can't figure out a clever way to explain the evolution from stone dragon/drake -> dragon. Would it go something like Stone dragon/drake -> proto-dragon -> dragon?

DreadtheDamned · 08/15/11, 8:16 PM

Originally Posted by Molakar

Then again, CDev said that the stone drakes may be the origin of both proto-dragons and dragons but I really don't get it since I can't figure out a clever way to explain the evolution from stone dragon/drake -> dragon. Would it go something like Stone dragon/drake -> proto-dragon -> dragon?

You know, I'll be honest, ever since Blizz threw proto-dragons/drakes into Wrath and basically said "this is where the modern dragons came from", it's thrown a wrench into the evolutionary works, so to speak. Then there is Galakrond (who is alluded to also being a proto-dragon), the 'father' of all dragons. It is plausible that Galakrond was already alive and well on Azeroth before the Titans came along, making him a fleshy dragon, which is supported by the fact that the proto-drakes are also flesh and so are the five major dragonflights.

But then if you throw the stone drakes into the equation, it muddies the waters. If Galakrond wasn't Titan made, where did these stone drakes come from? Certainly not from a flesh-borne dragon. Were they Titan created? Therazane made? Or just a simple evolution? Unfortunately there is very little to no evidence that supports any one theory - or any lore on where they came from.

Fnar · 08/16/11, 2:11 AM

Originally Posted by DreadtheDamned

You know, I'll be honest, ever since Blizz threw proto-dragons/drakes into Wrath and basically said "this is where the modern dragons came from", it's thrown a wrench into the evolutionary works, so to speak. Then there is Galakrond (who is alluded to also being a proto-dragon), the 'father' of all dragons. It is plausible that Galakrond was already alive and well on Azeroth before the Titans came along, making him a fleshy dragon, which is supported by the fact that the proto-drakes are also flesh and so are the five major dragonflights.

But then if you throw the stone drakes into the equation, it muddies the waters. If Galakrond wasn't Titan made, where did these stone drakes come from? Certainly not from a flesh-borne dragon. Were they Titan created? Therazane made? Or just a simple evolution? Unfortunately there is very little to no evidence that supports any one theory - or any lore on where they came from.

To be honest I think this is one of those situations where Blizzard say 'never mind the lore, need more mounts' they had to come up with a new drake/dragon type mount for cataclysm so they invented stone drakes and to hell with the consequences.

Molakar · 08/16/11, 3:08 AM

Originally Posted by DreadtheDamned

You know, I'll be honest, ever since Blizz threw proto-dragons/drakes into Wrath and basically said "this is where the modern dragons came from", it's thrown a wrench into the evolutionary works, so to speak. Then there is Galakrond (who is alluded to also being a proto-dragon), the 'father' of all dragons. It is plausible that Galakrond was already alive and well on Azeroth before the Titans came along, making him a fleshy dragon, which is supported by the fact that the proto-drakes are also flesh and so are the five major dragonflights.

But then if you throw the stone drakes into the equation, it muddies the waters. If Galakrond wasn't Titan made, where did these stone drakes come from? Certainly not from a flesh-borne dragon. Were they Titan created? Therazane made? Or just a simple evolution? Unfortunately there is very little to no evidence that supports any one theory - or any lore on where they came from.

To be honest, I think it's better (for now) to disregard the stone-dragons as anything other then the creation or beings of Therazane and that they have no connection to both the proto-dragons or the real dragons. That makes the evolution of the dragons more explainable and then it doesn't matter if the proto-dragons were fleshy or stone/iron from the beginning.

Kaejin · 08/16/11, 4:17 AM

I don't think things are as confusing as you're making them sound. Just as Trolls and the Aqir were naturally occurring life forms on Azeroth, so too could the proto-drakes be.

Stone Drakes, Storm Drakes, and Firehawks could all be dragons modified by their respective Elemental Lord or else just bizarre occurrences all-together. Molten Front dailies imply that the Firehawks don't heed Ragnoros as their master for the most part (with Alysrazor and a handful of others being the deviants). Stone Drakes are said to only follow whoever proves the most powerful, so they switched allegiance from Therazane to Deathwing, and then when Deathwing leaves Deepholm you break them for Therazane again.

Storm Drakes we have next to no interaction with outside of Vortex Pinnacle.

I'd say that proto-drakes were a natural species of Azeroth that the Titans uplifted because they saw the potential in them as powerful guardians for the planet. They took the mightiest (Galakrond) and from him created the Aspects we know today.

Just because when the Titans create from scratch they use earthly materials doesn't mean that it's the only way they do things, and Azeroth is the only world we know of that they've created, so we also have nothing else to compare to.

Fnar · 08/16/11, 6:19 AM

I think we are on safe ground by stating that Galakrond was the original dragon, and that all proto and 'modern' dragons evolved from him.

I think it is also safe to say that the flights and their aspects were not created by the Titans, merely empowered by them – this is confirmed in Thrall: Twilight of the Aspects – which is brand new so if it’s wrong just WTF are the lore guys at Blizzard doing?

We have seen evidence in the past that dragon eggs are rather dynamic and the whelp that hatches will have been affected by it’s surroundings – e.g. Netherwing dragons were exposed to nether energies while eggs and mutated accordingly. If a dragon laid some eggs in Deepholm, it is conceivable that these will have taken on the properties of that realm or been exposed to ‘earth magics’ by either Therazane or her followers ditto for Skywall, Firelands, etc

Ukerric · 08/17/11, 10:39 AM

Well, Tom Chilton just revealed at Gamescon that next patch is where Deathwing meets his well-deserved fate. Which, barring a late Old-god whackout (which appears unlikely, since we haven't even seen eye or tentacle of any old god during the whole expansion, only indirect vague allusions) means we're ending the Cataclysm story cycle in nov/dec.

Mr. Crow · 08/17/11, 1:03 PM

Originally Posted by Ukerric

... means we're ending the Cataclysm story cycle in nov/dec.

If the leaked Product Schedule is still to be trusted, that puts Expansion #4 in around Q2/Q3 2012. It gives the top tier raid around 6-7 months of life, which given the poor reaction to how long Arthas was endgame is a pretty welcome improvement.

Another announcement revealed that the Ethereals are all part of bonus in-game services for extra storage and appearance modification. So much for my theory that Blizzard was intentionally throwing misinformation around to keep Mists of Pandaria under wraps.

I suspect we'll still have a 4.4 to bridge the gap into MoP, but we know it won't be Abyssal Maw, and it probably won't be a War of the Ancients raid if we're getting a CoT 5-man in 4.3.

Starfire · 08/17/11, 5:40 PM

We still haven't seen much about Azshara. Don't forget they did give the Queen a good billing in the interlude to Cataclysm, though they did say we wouldn't see her.

Anyways, my thought is, if there is a 4.4, it would be something tied to Azshara to remind us she's still around. Obviously, not Azshara herself.

Ukerric · 08/17/11, 5:45 PM

I'm not even sure there IS a 4.4 theme. We had pretty much two villains around: the Twilight Cult, and Neltahrion/Deathwing. The whole Azshara/Naga/Old God part got scuttled (and Chilton even admits so) real early, so which enemy might do us a last gasp a-la Ruby Shrine?

I don't see any. A 4.4 small raid might occur, but, barring a surprise, there's really nothing that fits the expansion theme, except a water-based stuff, which is ruled out by the game producer (and Chilton all but spelled out straight that the CoT dungeon IS the War of the Ancients; so much for the hope of yet another CoT raid).

But, if you shorten the wait for Mists of Pandaria (say, it comes out in May), you don't really need a 4.4 raid. Get an ICC-type buff to make sure all casuals guilds raid Deathwing in March at the latest, and you've wrapped up the whole expansion just in time for the 85-90/ilvl 333-420 jump (because, you know, starting greens will have to be better than hard-mode deathwing stuff, which will be 410)

Exemplar · 08/18/11, 9:24 AM

It's quite early in Firelands' life cycle to announce the next raid. I'm somewhat anticipating slippage. Next patch not being Deathwing, instead receiving an interim patch (4.3) that has the new dungeons (and possibly the new features). Then 1-2 months after that would be Deathwing in 4.4. Rather than dungeons+DW in 4.3.

Just based off of Hyjal rep - the front bosses only give 300 rep (and are effectively only way to go Revered to Exalted). The more casual raiders may only be killing 1-4 a week. 1 kill a week would take 70(!!!) weeks to go Revered to Exalted. 4 would take ~18. Then add a couple weeks to use the shiny rep ring prior to next tier.

So we're about a month and a half into a tier that rightfully should last around 5-6 months. The last tier was 7 months (but deduct leveling time and some modifier for quantity of bosses being greater). 3-4 more months is quite reasonable. Dungeons could either be in 2-3 months or as a bridge if they feel the need to push Deathwing out another month. This delay would probably happen if % of raids killing Ragnaros or players at Exalted or whatever goal Blizzard sets isn't met in their expected timeframe.

Post Deathwing patch, if they need something to bridge, I think it more likely they'd poach a dungeon from the next Xpac and downrank levels/abilities. That should be simpler than scrambling and designing something new from scratch, if needed. Since this Xpac seems to be progressing more along the expressed Xpac lifespan, I doubt they'll need something as filler.

Edit: Corrected patch #s. I r kan kount gud.

Fnar · 08/18/11, 12:52 PM

I remember discussing some months ago who would be the other bosses in a Deathwing raid, now that raid is upon us and I don't feel like we have any in-game bads to still deal with other than Deathwing's Old God masters who have been very quiet since BoT (and even then was not directly involved). Somehow I don't see Blizard throwing in an Old God to play second fiddle to anyone in a given raid tier so all I can really see is from the Novels the Twilight Father and Chromatus anyone else who would make sense as a raid boss is dead or apparently 'resolved' (Neptulon/Naga). Then we would have the problem of players having no idea who these guys are because their only appearance is in the literature.

Also location is another interesting thread, it sounds like at least some of the fight is outdoors because you are 'on deathwing's massive back as he flies through the air' I guess Outland which has been rumoured would be pretty cool, he has been based their before and where else better to plan the destruction of a world than on a living blueprint?