World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 710

Malleus · 12/03/11, 3:47 AM

Originally Posted by Blayze

I'm just confused as to why the Aspects were apparently empowered to combat the Hour of Twilight--likely an event prophesied by Aman'Thul--when it was Neltharion's Titan-granted connection to the land to begin with that allowed the Old Gods to corrupt him and make the Hour of Twilight possible in the first place.

Because it wasn't certain that Neltharion would be the one to fall to corruption? The Hour of Twilight could be prophesied without knowing its source, beyond that it was a Dragon Aspect, and Deathwing wasn't the only original Aspect to go off his nut. Presumably all five Aspects were empowered to stop the Hour should one of their fellows go rogue.

Kirion · 12/03/11, 4:24 AM

Originally Posted by Cybsled

It will be impossible to say how big an impact the removal of their immortality (and aspect powers) are until they further the storyline ingame.

One way of looking at it is the Well of Eternity. The Well was a massive source of power, but it was destroyed. Pieces of it survived, but the pieces never matched the power of the original source. Magic was originally drawn from that source, but in time mages adapted so that they could still draw on residues of the well around them to power their magic. If you recall in the War of the Ancients trilogy, Rhonin wasn't used to having access to so much power. He was basically used to working with scraps, thus why when he tried to do that initial fireball spell, he ended up blowing up half the forest because he wasn't expecting there to be so much power available.

The aspects could be the same. In a way, they are like the Well of Eternity: HUGE sources of immense power. Like the well, just because it's gone, there is still a residue of the power of the aspects. Bronze will still have powers of time, red powers of life, blues power of magic, etc. It will never match the original power of the aspects, but it will still be there in diminished form I'm guessing. I think ultimately the biggest change is that the aspects will be more on the level of their flight as a whole in terms of power, as opposed to the aspects being so much more powerful then the rest of their flight, which was basically a shadow of their power.

Given that world spent thousands of years with Aspects severely underpowered by Demon Soul this is probably the case.

At some point Blizzard will probably clarify what happened to their power.

Blayze · 12/03/11, 7:42 AM

Originally Posted by Malleus

Because it wasn't certain that Neltharion would be the one to fall to corruption? The Hour of Twilight could be prophesied without knowing its source, beyond that it was a Dragon Aspect, and Deathwing wasn't the only original Aspect to go off his nut. Presumably all five Aspects were empowered to stop the Hour should one of their fellows go rogue.

Except Aman'Thul showed Nozdormu his death. That's a pretty specific thing to show someone, and implies he had the ability to see the other Aspects' deaths--namely Neltharion's. Unless, I dunno, he couldn't see our specific future because Deathwing wasn't meant to happen for some reason.

Cybsled · 12/03/11, 2:02 PM

Originally Posted by Kirion

Given that world spent thousands of years with Aspects severely underpowered by Demon Soul this is probably the case.

At some point Blizzard will probably clarify what happened to their power.

Without having experienced the Deathwing boss encounter myself, do the Aspects supercharge the Demon Soul by feeding it more power?

That could be a good explanation as to why they lose their powers at the end...because they essentially let the Demon Soul drain their remaining powers to fight Deathwing.

Emeraude · 12/03/11, 3:28 PM

Cute little Easter Egg regarding Archbishop Benedictus.

If you head to the Cathedral, you can ask where Benedictus is, if you come back after you tun the Hour of Twilight Instance, the dialog expands!

Malleus · 12/04/11, 1:20 PM

Originally Posted by Blayze

Except Aman'Thul showed Nozdormu his death. That's a pretty specific thing to show someone, and implies he had the ability to see the other Aspects' deaths--namely Neltharion's. Unless, I dunno, he couldn't see our specific future because Deathwing wasn't meant to happen for some reason.

Or he could see our specific future, but didn't tell anyone because the Cataclysm was meant to happen. That alone would be reason enough to empower all five Aspects. I mean, Aman'thul couldn't say "One day, the Dragon Aspects will have to avert the Hour of Twilight. To that end, we shall empower you against this great evil ... no, not you, Neltharion, you wait over there for a minute". It's like Jesus and the Apostles; Jesus knew that one of them would betray him, and he even knew which one - but if he didn't invite that one to join his inner circle, he wouldn't die on Calvary and everything he did would have been meaningless.

Beyond that, it's all Appointment in Samarra stuff. Nozdormu was told how he would die so he wouldn't believe himself to be all-powerful, but it was the knowledge of that death which led to him going mad trying to prevent it and his attempts to prevent it were what made us have to kill him. All the machinations of the Infinite Dragonflight were caused by Aman'thul giving out that knowledge. However, if Aman'thul had kept his mouth shut, presumably something worse would have happened - like Nozdormu, believing himself all-powerful, lording it over the other Aspects and starting a war between the Dragonflights that would prevent the Hour of Twilight being averted.

Emeraude · 12/04/11, 1:46 PM

I don't think Nozdormu knowing about his own death led him to madness. At least the one we fought in the future considered the time he lived in to be a blessing compared to the "real" End Time.

Kaejin · 12/04/11, 2:51 PM

The Hour of Twilight could have been the best case scenario. It's possible that any alternative to making Neltharion the Earth-Warder ended up worse. Perhaps the result of Deathwing was the only chance we had to stop the Hour of Twilight.

It's hard to say because prophecy and time travel is more than just paradoxes, it's the infinite possibility involved. What other ways could this have ended? You can't count them.

Exemplar · 12/05/11, 7:42 AM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

"Still, in time, I will... fall to madness. And you, heroes... will vanquish me. The cycle will repeat. So it goes."

So basically, we forced Nozformu's hand in taking out his future crazy self, to open the timeways and rewrite a few things, because as Alexstraza pointed out he wasn't just given control of time to watch it get wiped away, but it's inevitable that he's going to go mad and we'll have to kill him again, just not in the way we just did.

I read it more as self-fulfilling prophecy. By killing Murozond, his 'freeze' on the timeways is gone. This permits Nozdormu to send you back to grab the Dragon Soul and play Jenga with the timeline. Even though it's for the greater good, that's gotta stress his innate 'programming' from the Titans. Think: Major Mental Trauma. He may seem okay with it, but it's really going to mess with his head. Enough that after, oh, ten thousand or million years, he'll be another crazy dragon and turn into Murozond. Murozond would be in constant mental anguish and sees the best solution is to prevent his younger self from getting into the mess in the first place - and 'freezes' the timelines. Which causes young-Noz to send in the Shock troops to kill Murozond. By killing Murozond...

In general time travel (or just seeing the future/prophecy) gets really messy with 'Why didn't you see X' scenarios. The only semi-logical answer is: Titans cannot themselves kill Old Gods. The only way to kill Old Gods requires some really long complex gameplan that eventuates with the Old Gods 'breaking free', being overconfident, and destroyed by some other source (themselves, via us? We are their corrupted variants of Titan creation and all.). If the Sundering hadn't happened, if Neltharion hadn't gone batshit, if Arthas hadn't been Lich King, etc, etc, then the final endgame scenario that permits Old God killing cannot happen. Planetary chemotherapy - yeah, this is bad for you and painful in the short run with a slim chance to kill you outright, but in the long run it has the best chance to save your life.

david0925 · 12/07/11, 9:35 PM

To be honest I really felt the Murozond story was added in as a fan speculation since Wrath. You can't say Aman'thul showed how Nozdormu died (i know this was a fact from story) while clouding everything in middle from him.

If he knows everything in time then he knows what's going to happen. Apparently he either can't see Hour of Twilight until recently, or he saw Hour of Twilight succeed, or he saw Hour of Twilight fail with current storyline. If it's the former 2, we going to change time. Which means that his death cause may be altered as well.

More importantly, this means that the Titans can see or even alter the future, which means they know everything that was going to happen on Azeroth. So why did they leave things as it is? In this case what Deathwing said in Blizzard's latest mini story is true: Azeroth is just an experiment they don't care about. If this weren't the case, then they can't see the future, which means that Nozdormu's power becomes very awkward.

Again, this is what happens when you try to expand a story on time travel.

the actual outcome is much less cliched as good guys going bad is desperately overdone in wow and warcraft in general

It's really annoying that we lost 2 of the 5 aspects to madness (3 if you count Nozdormu). Then again I guess that's what you need if you want Dragonslaying and Dragons as good guys to coexist in the same universe.

Kuku · 12/08/11, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by david0925

To be honest I really felt the Murozond story was added in as a fan speculation since Wrath. You can't say Aman'thul showed how Nozdormu died (i know this was a fact from story) while clouding everything in middle from him.

If he knows everything in time then he knows what's going to happen. Apparently he either can't see Hour of Twilight until recently, or he saw Hour of Twilight succeed, or he saw Hour of Twilight fail with current storyline. If it's the former 2, we going to change time. Which means that his death cause may be altered as well.

More importantly, this means that the Titans can see or even alter the future, which means they know everything that was going to happen on Azeroth. So why did they leave things as it is? In this case what Deathwing said in Blizzard's latest mini story is true: Azeroth is just an experiment they don't care about. If this weren't the case, then they can't see the future, which means that Nozdormu's power becomes very awkward.

Again, this is what happens when you try to expand a story on time travel.

It's really annoying that we lost 2 of the 5 aspects to madness (3 if you count Nozdormu). Then again I guess that's what you need if you want Dragonslaying and Dragons as good guys to coexist in the same universe.

I think it's kind of silly to think that Nozdormu or the Titans can see everything that is going to happen in the future. Sure, Aman'thul showed Nozdormu his own death... but showing the Guardian of Time his own end is clearly dfiferent than knowing everything that is to happen. I'd be willing to bet that, before empowering Nozdormu, Aman'thul didn't have any idea how Nozdormu would die. Hell, he still might not have ever actually seen it himself.

Exemplar · 12/08/11, 1:11 PM

If taken strictly at face value, "Nozdormu can see the future", this does not mean he can actually anticipate events. The future is a spectrum - every coin flip could go either direction, every decision could have the reverse. Seeing the future would see all of these options. By seeing the future Nozdormu could select precisely which actions and words he will say - this would narrow the future, but not drive it.

It's simple enough to theorize situations where if Noz interferes, it uniformly goes bad, if he does not interfere there's a strong chance it works and a slim one things go bad. He cannot guarantee the good thing will happen.

Seeing the future is not necessarily the same as controlling the future.

Example:
You cannot bake. Fancy dessert is delivered (historical action occurs). Pepper spills on desert (someone tries to modify - Infinites). You can clean off the pepper (send in the heroes). Dessert is back to tasty status. You still did not, and cannot, make that dessert yourself.

You want another fancy dessert. You can hire a fussy pastry chef, pay them well, provide the ingredients... and hope it comes out well. The pastry chef can provide one just as tasty, even better, or completely inedible. You can see how the pastry can fail, but if you even mention this to the pastry chef it guarantees failure because they become pissed at your armchair quarterbacking.

david0925 · 12/08/11, 8:49 PM

Seeing the future is not necessarily the same as controlling the future

Of course it's not. But you also do not know if your future action is going to change or lead to the future that you foresee, which put us in the popular topic of free will versus predeterminism. It complicates the argument when Nozdormu, in theory, can do this

-Do nothing and know what's going to happen
-Do something, twist the timeline, and his infinite (numberless, not Murozond) self will tell him the effect of his action, allowing him to tamper furhter.

This is why I had a huge issue with Knaak's "letting Nozdormu see his own demise" because assuming Titans didn't go "hey lol just kidding bro", they know when and how Nozdormu was going to perish. And it is hard for me to believe that they don't know everything in between if they know precisely how and when he will die.

As much as I like the Dragon aspects, maybe eliminating Nozdormu's omnipresent ability across timeline (at least, in our current time period) is not a bad thing because it opens up so many awkward debates.

Exemplar · 12/09/11, 8:20 AM

Originally Posted by david0925

This is why I had a huge issue with Knaak's "letting Nozdormu see his own demise" because assuming Titans didn't go "hey lol just kidding bro", they know when and how Nozdormu was going to perish.

Again, letting Nozdormu see his own future is not the same as the Titans seeing Nozdormu's future (and every event in between).

Don't get me wrong, time travel or even temporo-clairvoyance becomes a morass of 'why didn't they do X if they knew about Y' unless some writer firmly plots out the entire sequence in extreme detail before starting the story. Which is clearly not the case as Blizzard (and Knaak) have made this up as they go along.

Kaejin · 12/09/11, 12:38 PM

Nozdormu often refuses to share his knowledge of the future any more than he absolutely has to or unless the person he's talking to is already aware of all the details. End Time is the only time I can recall the Bronze Flight actually letting us see something ahead of our time.

Nozdormu does not even share that kind of knowledge with the other Aspects, and does not act on it because he knows it's not his job to do so (this is basically what separates him from Murozond).

Why would it be any different for the Titans? Knowledge of the future is dangerous (perhaps one of the most dangerous things there is).