World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 711

david0925 · 12/10/11, 6:19 PM

Again, letting Nozdormu see his own future is not the same as the Titans seeing Nozdormu's future

So basically your argument is that Noz can see his future but the Titans will not/cannot? How do you empower someone with something that you do not possess yourself? Even in the case that Aman'thul does bless Nozdormu with an ability he does not have himself somehow, can't Nozdormu at least see something immediately after the gift and tell Aman'thul "there's something massively wrong with the Old Gods?"

Kaejin

So basically if he foresees a ruined future by the Old Gods he cannot act even when his charge is to protect Azeroth against them. There is a contradiction here that cannot work either way: he will fail one of his tasks if that is the future he sees.

Kaejin · 12/10/11, 9:43 PM

1) His job is to protect time in regards to Azeroth. The invasion of the Orcs was certainly not something anyone saw as beneficial to Azeroth at the time. Neither was the explosion of the Well of Eternity. The Culling of Stratholm? Tragedy. They all ended up having a reason for happening, though. Inaction is a fairly common stance for time warden archetypes.

2) Like I said earlier, prophecy and time travel are about more than just paradoxes. There's an infinite number of possibilities. He may decide that one future is the most likely to occur, but quite clearly nothing is set in stone, and so to act on one possibility and intervene with the natural flow of events, you would have to be very certain that you must. What does he know that we don't?

Can you really judge the actions of a being who perceives time completely differently than us in the same way you would judge another person? Not really. Any perception of his failure could not be confirmed until all events have completely run their course.

Cybsled · 12/11/11, 4:43 PM

New short story posted by Blizzard. It basically is the leadup to the 4.3 patch. Interestingly enough, it mentions King Bronzebeard I think (not by name) and insinuates that he is communicating with the Earthen/guarding the area around Khaz Modan in spirit. It also very briefly mentions Pandaria (again, not in name, but it's clear that they are talking about it). It also outlines why the Demon/Dragon Soul is able to harm Deathwing in the raid.

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Exemplar · 12/11/11, 6:33 PM

Originally Posted by david0925

How do you empower someone with something that you do not possess yourself? Even in the case that Aman'thul does bless Nozdormu with an ability he does not have himself somehow, can't Nozdormu at least see something immediately after the gift and tell Aman'thul "there's something massively wrong with the Old Gods?"

I can think of numerous scenarios where something can be given that cannot be used yourself. Example: So-so artist becomes a teacher. Teaches the mechanics of artistry to students. One student learns from this teacher. Student is able to create world class artwork (Sistine Chapel, Mona Lisa, etc). Teacher could not have done so.

Why didn't Noz tell Aman'thul? Again, plenty of scenarios. Example: Noz says "There's something massively wrong with the Old Gods!" Aman'thul says, "Okay, we kill them." Titans kill Old Gods. Azeroth is completely and utterly destroyed in the process. Noz would have just failed his appointed job.

Again, seeing the future does not automatically mean you can control it or get the precise result you want. If you can see every possible result of every action and an action has even a 1% chance to produce really bad results, can you risk that action? Or do you instead go with the less useful action that has 100% chance not to produce bad results?

david0925 · 12/12/11, 1:49 AM

Exemplar

I can see the merit in some of your explanation, so I do appreciate them.

I disagree with your analogy with the teachers though. Time-related abilities are defined by Aman'thul when he gifted Nozdormu. He had the ability to see across the timeline and even his own end before Titans even left. So it's not the same as a teacher unlocking the potential in gifted students who then went on and achieve more.

I can definitely understand the argument about changing something affecting the future. I was going to say that he is able to go back to the past to undone any tampering he has done. But then we just open a whole paradox of things in that regard (butterfly effect?) and we don't even know if the past can be affected by present day decisions when the whole time travel is concerned.

I think your argument made the lore in 4.3 a bit more reasonable, but I still think the flaws are fairly apparent.

warkin · 12/28/11, 7:40 PM

So after watching this video of Blizzcon 2011, BlizzCon 2011 - World Of Warcraft: Mists of Pandaria - Lore and Story Panel (Full) - YouTube, what is going down with the Aspects? Chris Metzen makes reference to big things happening with the Aspects. The Aspects themselves make reference after the fall of Deathwing that their time has passed...anyone?

david0925 · 12/28/11, 9:06 PM

Originally Posted by warkin

So after watching this video of Blizzcon 2011, BlizzCon 2011 - World Of Warcraft: Mists of Pandaria - Lore and Story Panel (Full) - YouTube, what is going down with the Aspects? Chris Metzen makes reference to big things happening with the Aspects. The Aspects themselves make reference after the fall of Deathwing that their time has passed...anyone?

probably busy getting corrupted somehow since we already lost 2.5 that way (Nozdormu count as half)

jokes aside, I do want to see them getting empowererd again somehow (especially for poor Kalecgos that got his charge for 1 patch). I really can't see the Titan's purpose for the aspect is just to defeat a minion of the Old God (one that defected, on top of that)

Exemplar · 12/29/11, 8:29 AM

Originally Posted by david0925

I really can't see the Titan's purpose for the aspect is just to defeat a minion of the Old God (one that defected, on top of that)

Indeed, it would seem rather pointless. Titans appoint Aspects for the sole specific task of defending the world against... one of the Aspects going wild?

If their duties are manifold and greater, which one would hope is the case, then temporarily supercharging the Dragon Soul should not drain them entirely. And, again one would hope, the supercharged Dragon Soul is a temporary business, otherwise even if you return it properly to the timeline you're replacing the normal with a beefed up version. Beyond the Dragon Soul business I can see no reasonable explanation for them to be spent. Does a mage cease being able to control any magic for perpetuity when they run OOM? No, they just need to rest and recharge. Focusing an Aspect's powers on Deathwing during an assault may be a very enervating experience, but it shouldn't de-demigod-ify someone. Not that logic or reason has ever appeared to influence any lore decisions.

warkin · 12/29/11, 10:00 AM

Chris Metzen also commented that they were still not sure when or how to bring in the Titans. Sargeras would be the one I'm most interested in since he fueled the Burning Legion, and he would make an excellent raid boss. There are so many undeveloped Titan areas in WoW (Makers Terrace in Sholozar, all the various structures in Storm Peaks, and what about the big hole in the ground in Storm Peaks ,Engine of the Makers). They started going down the road with Ulduar and then got derailed with ToC and ICC somewhat. Of course, if they race to the end of the story they can't pursue lateral threads in game...so I'll just sit back and enjoy Pandas I guess.

Monocle · 12/29/11, 1:21 PM

From what we have seen of the Mogu, they look dead on as a Titan created race. The shots from the Mogu'shan Palace raid had Titanic architectural features. The layout shown, which Blizzard did admit was already changed, also included a Titan Repository.

The Mogu themselves look like they are made from stone. That makes me wonder how these guys managed to avoid the Curse of Flesh.

So we should still get some Titan lore in MoP, if these small scraps of information is anything to go on.

warkin · 12/29/11, 2:01 PM

Looking at this link Mogu - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft, they seem to be flesh and bone, although their description is rather vague. However, I do see the titan repository you mentioned Mogu'Shan Palace - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft.

warkin · 01/04/12, 12:27 PM

I just wanted to share this link I found when I searched WoW books in an effort to find a chronological order to the book series. World of Warcraft Books in Chronological Order

Sien · 01/06/12, 8:00 AM

Originally Posted by warkin

I just wanted to share this link I found when I searched WoW books in an effort to find a chronological order to the book series. World of Warcraft Books in Chronological Order

I don't like to put you down, but this list isn't very concise. War of the Ancients and the trilogy involved defintly wasn't a chronological event post Arthas' rise to power as the Lich King.

david0925 · 01/06/12, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by Sien

I don't like to put you down, but this list isn't very concise. War of the Ancients and the trilogy involved defintly wasn't a chronological event post Arthas' rise to power as the Lich King.

That's a chronological order of the novel's release, not the timeline.

warkin · 01/10/12, 6:32 PM

I certainly agree that Arthas rising to power occurred after the "Sundering". I believe "David0925" is correct in pointing out the website provides the chronological release of the books, not the actual timeline. Interesting point, Nerzul does predate the "Sundering".

Thanks for looking over the link and clarifying the exact nature of the information being provided.