World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 712

ildon · 01/13/12, 5:32 AM

Originally Posted by warkin

Chris Metzen also commented that they were still not sure when or how to bring in the Titans. Sargeras would be the one I'm most interested in since he fueled the Burning Legion, and he would make an excellent raid boss. There are so many undeveloped Titan areas in WoW (Makers Terrace in Sholozar, all the various structures in Storm Peaks, and what about the big hole in the ground in Storm Peaks ,Engine of the Makers). They started going down the road with Ulduar and then got derailed with ToC and ICC somewhat. Of course, if they race to the end of the story they can't pursue lateral threads in game...so I'll just sit back and enjoy Pandas I guess.

You should do Storm Peaks as Alliance. Their questline makes pretty good use of Engine of the Makers. In fact, any time you go through a zone and think a whole section of it seems unused, you should try running it as the other faction. It can be pretty surprising (sometimes).

Ukerric · 03/19/12, 8:29 AM

Ok, so the press NDA for Mists of Pandaria (which appears to lift before we set foot on the continent, anyway) is lifted.

Besides the fact that I think they're introducing waaay too many new races, I'm also disappointed by the biggest spoiler of all.

Really? 5.2 is us raiding Orgimmar to depose Garrosh? And we needed to be told now? I understand Garrosh has been a poster boy for the "bad leader", but come on...

Krixooks · 03/19/12, 10:00 AM

I don't understand Blizzard.
First off they make Garrosh look hot-headed and a bit reckless, yet still a bit of a badass.
Then they "redeem" him in Stonetalon by showing us how he has learned from Saurfang and is becoming a good leader.

He's really going to have to do something very evil in MoP for us to all want to kill him as a raid boss.

And who will replace him as warchief?
Are we going to see a very horde-centric expansion again?

also, Chris Metzen on the Orgrimmar raid:

Well, one of the main side quests is Varian being very specific: "Protect the kids. We're not here to conquer these people; we're here to bring down a guy that needs bringin' down." So imagine artillery, imagine the soldiers -- it's gonna be horrific -- but Varian saying, "We're the good guys. We're not here to massacre or enact vengeance on these people. They've been put upon by a bad man."

There's a power there that shouldn't fall into, uh, some people's hands.

Garrosh is Saddam Hussein

Cireena · 03/19/12, 12:39 PM

I haven't actually seen him redeemed. Even Stonetalon is not enough to excuse TH. He is still worthless as a leader and needs to be removed. I can easily see him continuing along the same path he has been following since forever and everyone in game deciding he needs to die just as we did out of game.

Starfire · 03/19/12, 3:21 PM

I think the important take away from this is Anduin's effect on Varian. And Varian definitely is redeemed. Also, remember the repeated rumors of the destruction of Theramore? I suppose the invasion of Orgimmar is a bit of "making up" for the fact Theramore gets invaded/destroyed and Alliance already lost the Archbishop in the Cataclysm campaign.

Emeraude · 03/19/12, 4:32 PM

The direction of those 2 characters is entirely intentional. Varian & Garrosh were made to cause conflict.

Varian was meant to be the Thrall of the Alliance, while Garrosh was meant to replace Thrall. Obviously you can't be the Thrall of the Alliance if you're a jerk and not a nice guy, and you can't be Thrall of the Horde if you're not...THRALL OF THE HORDE :P

It's not entirely surprising to me that Varian is going to become this amazing Alliance leader that even goes so far as defending the women and children of the Horde, while Garrosh who replaced the real deal Warchief ends up the villain. That being said I'm not entirely convinced Garrosh will be killed, the Hellscream bloodline always adds so much to Warcraft lore, although I guess it could live on if that female Orc from the Dragonmaw ends up pregnant with his kid.

I wanted to go with a Varian = Naruto, Garrosh = Sasuke, Thrall = Itachi analogy, but it didn't work out for me!

Starfire · 03/19/12, 4:47 PM

All I took from that is Thrall comes back alive to team up with Garrosh to take down Mannorath or Doomhammer reincarnated or something.

-- All kidding aside though --

For what it's worth though, with your analogies and all, you should consider Vol'jin. Vol'jin being Warchief I think would also be satisfying. I mean, there's even a little bit of lead-up there with Vol'jin working with Vereesa Windrunner (the parallel here is Thrall working with Jaina, though Vol'jin and Vereesa working together could use a bit more fleshing). Vol'jin has many Thrall like qualities and don't forget the dialogue with Vol'jin at the start of Cataclysm.

Hmm, I could be wrong, but weren't the High Elves the mortal enemies of the Troll too? Vol'jin uniting Vereesa and Halduron (I believe? Zul'Aman v2 arc) is another good quality and working together for the "greater good". Plus look at the even brighter path down the line in 6.0 when we finally see the Zandalari/South Seas. There's just a whole lot of depth here too, the aspect of a Troll being Warchief, from refugees to being more prominent.

Back to your Naruto reference, Hiruzen was very much alive when Minato was the Hokage. I can absolutely see Vol'jin as the Warchief with Thrall (and Saurfang) being the retired Warchief and functioning as advisers. (By the way, for your reference, consider Garrosh's father as Itachi (seemingly evil, but truly good); Thrall would more likely be one of the older Hokages to make it work (Hiruzen would make a good deal of sense, but Thrall's "power" and wisdom is also reflective of Hashirama).

Krixooks · 03/19/12, 8:38 PM

A tauren or troll will never be warchief, nor a member of the forsaken or the blood elves.

The Horde is very centred on the orcs, I don't believe that blizzard will ever really divert from that story.

Ukerric · 03/20/12, 5:41 AM

So, we'll have to watch very carefully the storyline to see who appears to be the horde Hero.

Thrall won't be stepping back as Warchief anytime soon. He has accepted his responsibilities as top shaman of the universe, he's got family... While he would be back if nothing else worked, I don't think Metzen is going to plunge him back into the polarized Horde-Alliance conflict. Not when we have more cosmic threats (or is it submarine ones?) coming again in 6.0...

Cybsled · 03/20/12, 8:18 AM

Well if Garrosh isn't warchief and Thrall doesn't retake the role, what are your legitimate options? IMO there are 2 strong options besides Thrall

1) Saurfang would obviously be everyone's favorite choice, but he has never wanted the leadership role. Then again, it's a common fantasy theme for leadership to be thrust upon those who would be good at it, but don't want it. He would be a good fit because he's not above some bloody fights, but he is also honorable and willing to consider the bigger picture.

2) Baine might be a possible 2nd choice, although he isn't as developed. The Tauren are respected by the Horde in general, so it would be a less volatile choice then a troll or a blood elf or undead.

Honestly our best hint will either come from the game OR related media. If they release a book on some horde character (that isn't Thrall), that might be a good hint as to what to expect from that storyline.

Btw, interesting things to consider from MMO-Champ

Blizzard has talked about turning Jaina's hair all white because of the shock, and her becoming this very violent and dangerous mage.
Garrosh has become corrupted and has been doing some really nasty things beneath Orgrimmar.

Obviously we know what sorts of things happen in the underbelly of Orgrimmar. Perhaps he felt the orcs lost their edge when they escaped Mannoroth's curse and he is trying to recreate the felblood boost without the side effect of being the slaves of the Burning Legion?

That Jaina bit could be interesting, although it still seems like an odd turn of character for her (town burns down and she goes crazy). I do hope that if they go down that route, it's more then just a case of her having a nervous breakdown.

thedopefishlives · 03/20/12, 8:46 AM

Originally Posted by Cybsled

That Jaina bit could be interesting, although it still seems like an odd turn of character for her (town burns down and she goes crazy). I do hope that if they go down that route, it's more then just a case of her having a nervous breakdown.

It's more than just the town burning down, though. Right now, she trusts Thrall implicitly to help keep his people in check and to restrain them from attacking the Alliance outright. Thrall, however, is currently in no position of authority in the new Horde, where the Warchief reigns supreme even over the advice of the World-Shaman. So imagine you're Jaina, and everything seems peachy keen and you feel like you're finally getting a handle on diplomacy with the Horde, and all of a sudden Garrosh and his best soldiers show up and drop a nuke (or the Warcraft equivalent of such) on your city. I think that'd be enough to cause even the strongest mage in the world to snap.

Cybsled · 03/20/12, 9:02 AM

When you consider Jaina's past, though, the only way you can really view this is either the straw that broke the camel's back or just an odd turn of character. Consider:

1) Her mentor and basically every mage in Dalaran was massacred during the 3rd War
2) Most of the people she knew in Lorderon were massacred by the Scourge
3) Her own father came back and was slain by the Horde, with more or less with her own blessing with the understanding it was needed to prevent war

Her city being razed by Garrosh would definitely be some major points on the emotional stress-o-meter, but turning into an insane white haired mage just seems like kind of a stretch. More jaded and withdrawn? Sure. Jaina essentially murdering her idealistic views and taking a more cold, nihilistic view? Sure. But going batshit insane because of the attack just seems like poor writing and character development for her.

The only way it would really work is if she was trying to use something to assist her in defending her people/help them escape that had dire consequences for herself, like some Old God relic or Forbidden spell or something to that effect (ie, the price for her success in using the spell/relic is the cost of her own sanity).

Emeraude · 03/20/12, 2:49 PM

So Varian would become the new Jaina and Jaina would become the new Varian? HA, that would be interesting.

Not sure the Alliance needs a Sylvanas type though.

Ukerric · 03/20/12, 5:53 PM

Originally Posted by Cybsled

If they release a book on some horde character (that isn't Thrall), that might be a good hint as to what to expect from that storyline.

Next book is about Jaina, so that's not it. Unless it features rather prominently a horde PoV as well.

Originally Posted by Cybsled

But going batshit insane because of the attack just seems like poor writing and character development for her.

Considering it's Christie Golden who's writing the chapter and verse on Jaina's evolution, I do expect a rather more convincing experience than, say, Varian's sudden empathy turn in Wolfheart (ahem).

We'll know more on August 28 (when the book releases, presumably just before the expansion proper).

Starfire · 03/20/12, 6:01 PM

It would seem natural to me to have Jaina become more like Sylvanas though. There's also some other parallels (like with Arthas and Kael'thas). Not to mention Jaina effectively rules over the remaining High Elves (since Theramore is effectively their home). (Think about that some more, Sylvanas is a High Elf Queen of a former human city, Jaina is a human leader of High Elf Remnant).

The way I see it, when you take away everything she knew and trust, when every sign of hope is systematically destroyed, removed or taken away from her coupled with her responsibilities (responsibility to the people of Theramore -- and people of Kul Tiras / the High Elves) -- and the failure to protect them. Everything she has ever lived for is gone.

So yeah, I see Jaina becoming the Alliance Sylvanas as somewhat fitting. All I can say is, thank god they chose Jaina for this path and not Tyrande.