World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 76

Liebestod · 12/09/08, 6:54 PM

I'll cross my fingers and hope that maybe killing the Old Gods will awaken La'avos. And then Queen Azshara will feed on his power and raise Nazjestar into the sky. And then the Bronze Dragonflight gives us a steel riding mount to go confront her...

It'd certainly be interesting at least.

But yea, I wonder if Blizzard will ever seriously get around to developing the Old God lore. I can't see it happening within the next couple expansion cycles, but who knows. They're certainly more intriguing than they used to be.

chrisb3 · 12/09/08, 8:44 PM

Ok lots of speculation here...

1) Yogg-Saron is in Azjol-Nerub?
Fact:
C'thun and a Titan fought and 'fell' in Western Kalimdor. Eventually C'thun manipulated the Silithid in the area and created the Aqir who made the fortress city of Azj'Aqir. The city is abandoned due to repeated attacks by the trolls and the Aqir flee north and south founding the cities of Azjol-Nerub and Ahn'Qiraj.
Speculation:
Now this means that C'thun is actually sleeping somewhere inbetween the two cities, not in Silithus. Assuming he wasn't moved, this means that he can create avatars or bodies to inhabit in places where he has influence. This explains the Forgotten Ones in Azjol-Nerub, Ahn'Qiraj and Shadowmoon Valley(Although why here I don't know).
This means that C'thun and Yogg-Saron are the same Old God and the 3.2 raid will be in Naz'anak.

2) Yogg-Saron is in Ulduar?
Fact:
The Titans killed one Old God. Killing the Old Gods would destroy Azeroth.
The first set of Earthen failed, and new 'Iron' Earthen where made at Ulduar.
Speculation:
The Titans had their first City at Uldaman (it has normal earthen), after the Old Gods attacked the Titans made new better secured cities at Uldum and Ulduar (it has the new kind of earthen).
They killed the Old God in Darkshore and witnesed the catastrophic effects on the cursed Earthen/Giants/Everything in the area, it's body can't be too important or it wouldn't be in the middle of nowhere unguarded. The others where imprisoned to stop everything dieing in:
Terramok the Titan Vault in Maradon. This could be corrupting the Emerald Dream, the instance there definatly fits it.
Uldum - it broke out (look at the doors!). This could have been C'thun?
Beneath The Well of Eternity (Path of the Titans leads there, and a Old God corrupted the Naga).
Ulduar and the 3.1 raid will end with Yogg-Saron, leaving 3.2 for something else.

Anyway that is the best I can come up with, with the current information. Hopefully one or aspects of both turn out to be correct

Tirin · 12/10/08, 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by Nethris

Considering that the slaughter of his own troops must have occurred after he defeated Mal'ganis unless there's been a truly major retcon to that timeline, that action was only necessary in terms of serving the Lich King, so the very act of referring to it as necessary is a pretty pro-Lich King point of view. I could see this viewing of what was said if it were in respect to Arthas burning his own ships and then turning on the mercenaries he used to do so, but when he did this, he was pretty much done going after of the enemies he came to Northrend to fight.

It may actually be a retcon though. It certainly makes the story stronger.

Do you stand for justice and allow evil to continue? Or do you embrace evil to fight evil?
Either way, evil remains.

It's practically the Scourge motto.

Culling Stratholme was terrible, but I'm not really sure what he could have done differently. Dying to his sword beats being torn apart by the risen corpses of your family, or tearing apart your family yourself.

Burning the ships and blaming the mercenaries was bad. He's certainly descending into evil, but he could be brought back.

Now, taking Frostmourne. As it's presented in the game it doesn't really mark the threshold crossing it should be. Taking a cursed sword is extremely stupid but actually pretty noble. He was rather unconcerned when Muradin fell but he had no way to know that would happen. In the game the biggest power of Frostmourne is that it means you get Arthas back. He claimed the sword would be their salvation, presumably it did more than slightly increase his damage and attack speed. I really doubt Frostmourne amplified his holy abilities. But it may have given him some unholy ones.

Arthas is fairly neutral when he's about to seize Frostmourne. He's been a good and noble paladin but his recent acts are dragging him down. Under the old story just taking the sword suddenly makes him about the evilest person on the planet. His corruption is far more believeable if Frostmourne allows him to fight fire with fire. Gives him dark powers to fight the dark powers.

Terp · 12/10/08, 9:38 AM

Originally Posted by Tirin

Now, taking Frostmourne. As it's presented in the game it doesn't really mark the threshold crossing it should be. Taking a cursed sword is extremely stupid but actually pretty noble. He was rather unconcerned when Muradin fell but he had no way to know that would happen. In the game the biggest power of Frostmourne is that it means you get Arthas back. He claimed the sword would be their salvation, presumably it did more than slightly increase his damage and attack speed. I really doubt Frostmourne amplified his holy abilities. But it may have given him some unholy ones.

Arthas is fairly neutral when he's about to seize Frostmourne. He's been a good and noble paladin but his recent acts are dragging him down. Under the old story just taking the sword suddenly makes him about the evilest person on the planet. His corruption is far more believeable if Frostmourne allows him to fight fire with fire. Gives him dark powers to fight the dark powers.

The biggest thing Frostmourne does for Arthas in the actual game is convert his damage into Chaos damage which rips through Hero Armor. So hey, there's your big evil. Also I'm not sure where you are getting this sudden switch from. He takes the sword and leaves Muradin to rush off and slay Mal'ganis. Leaving the dwarf to die is hardly some huge act of evil when his army is getting destroyed by the Undead. IIRC that last mission has you actually fighting off Mal'ganis while Arthas is rushing for the sword. He then loses himself while fighting the demon and wanders the wasteland and then eventually turns.

Also not really seeing the good and noble paladin suddenly switching to almighty evil thing. Arthas is kind of a petty jerk both before and after.

Kuthumii · 12/10/08, 9:50 AM

Originally Posted by Leviathon

It seems very likely that Draenor did or does have a Old God(s) if what the Arrakoa were summoning was one. Considering it has elemental lords and whatnot it seems very likely Draenor was very similar to Azeroth.

I think the Curse of Flesh is more a result of only Yogg-Saron and not the other Old Gods acting with him. Just seems more likely that the Old Gods are acting on their own and doing there own things to try to affect Azeroth based on where they were imprisoned. It just happens to be that Yogg-Saron was imprisoned near where the Titans were constructing the Vrykul, Dwarves and etc. and was able to affect them and manipulate Loken into madness.

Maybe each of the Old Gods just attached themselves to a part of Azeroth that made it so that if they were destroyed it would cause larger problems and so destroying Yogg Saron would of killed those affected or descended from those affected by the Curse. Maybe the Emerald Dream would of been destroyed if they killed the one affecting the Emerald Dream for example also.

Just because there are elemental lords does not mean an Old God was their master.

The Curse of Flesh was around before the Old Gods were imprisoned, so that debunks your entire second paragraph.

The Emerald Dream did not exist when the Titans imprisoned the Old Gods.

Edit: Expecting someone to have a basic understanding of what they are talking about seems to be trolling.

Kuthumii · 12/10/08, 9:54 AM

Originally Posted by chrisb3

Ok lots of speculation here...

2) Yogg-Saron is in Ulduar?
Fact:
The Titans killed one Old God. Killing the Old Gods would destroy Azeroth.

Where is the proof they killed one? Darkshore? There is no proof it is dead. It seems more likely that it is prevented from regenerating due to the Glaive left in its skull.

Exemplar · 12/10/08, 10:15 AM

Let us play with analogies.

Analogy one: Old Gods are the cancer of Azeroth. You can put them in remission, but they could crop back up and kill you later. They grew large enough before being put in remission that surgery (killing them) would also kill the host (Azeroth). Maybe you can get away excising one or two and you'll only cause a stroke or serious nerve damage. Some might have been caught when surgery was possible and were thusly killed. Circumstances can be different between Old Gods and times have changed.

It's entirely possible that it's okay for us to kill them, but not the Titans. The Titans may have been wielding hatchets - not so good for surgery. It is possible we could act more like scalpels and safely excise what would otherwise be impossible.

Analogy two: Old Gods are... godlike. They're vastly powerful, and hungry. Rather than eat Azeroth itself, it looks like they'd prefer to turn it into a farm and eat us. So Earthen weren't that tasty, they've manipulated the stock (like we breed stock for better tasting meat) via the Curse of Flesh.

Remember, it's up in the air whether the Titans will accept we wee fleshbeasts. Flesh was not their initial design and they're not sure they approve of it. They set up Un'goro and Sholazar to test, but they may not like the results when they come back and check.

If/when they return they could smack back down (re-medicate) any active Old Gods, then decide to clean up the mess - i.e. fleshy things. If a herd of cattle contracts mad cow disease you have to put down the entire group to prevent spread. Titans could decide to put down everything infected with the Curse of Flesh to prevent it spreading to their other projects/worlds. They routinely set up life on entire worlds. If one fails, they might be sad, but accept the loss. Rather like a scientist and a favourite test rat.

Rhaegal · 12/10/08, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by Kuthumii

Where is the proof they killed one? Darkshore? There is no proof it is dead. It seems more likely that it is prevented from regenerating due to the Glaive left in its skull.

There's no proof, only implication. If it's still alive and just being held back by the Glaive, why isn't it guarded a little more closely? If I were to bring down a being of that kind of power and leave a sword (it totally looks more like a sword than a glaive, by the way, zone name aside) sticking out of it that's the only thing keeping it from standing back up and ravaging the world, I would at least build a temple or something and make it extremely clear that this is a Very Important Place not to be allowed to fall into the wrong hands. I wouldn't just leave its head sticking out of the ground in the middle of the woods if I were worried about some people coming along and pulling the sword from the stone, as it were. Of course, that doesn't explain why they left the weapon in the skull in the first place. Either way, the whole thing seems careless.

Of course, there's also no evidence that the thing in Darkshore is actually an old god instead of just a minion of one, only rumors both ways.

Maledict · 12/10/08, 10:46 AM

Hmm. From my years of reading fantasy, building a big temple and telling people not to go there is *exactly* what you do to guarantee a constant stream of visitors. May as well open a toll booth and a B&B near the place.

Leaving it in the back of some woods with no guards, signs or anything has got to be a better solution!

Kuthumii · 12/10/08, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Rhaegal

There's no proof, only implication. If it's still alive and just being held back by the Glaive, why isn't it guarded a little more closely? If I were to bring down a being of that kind of power and leave a sword (it totally looks more like a sword than a glaive, by the way, zone name aside) sticking out of it that's the only thing keeping it from standing back up and ravaging the world, I would at least build a temple or something and make it extremely clear that this is a Very Important Place not to be allowed to fall into the wrong hands. I wouldn't just leave its head sticking out of the ground in the middle of the woods if I were worried about some people coming along and pulling the sword from the stone, as it were. Of course, that doesn't explain why they left the weapon in the skull in the first place. Either way, the whole thing seems careless.

Of course, there's also no evidence that the thing in Darkshore is actually an old god instead of just a minion of one, only rumors both ways.

As the poster above stated, doing what you would do, would only ensure visitors, not keep them away.

How does it seem careless? Exactly how many beings on Azeroth could remove that sword? Not many. You also don't know what power the Titan's left on it to ensure it wasn't removed.

Its all rumor and speculation. I merely pointed out that it being dead isn't a fact, as the person I quoted stated. Please, read posts before you flame/rebuttal.

True, it could be dead, it could be imprisoned by the sword, or it might not be an Old God. They are all possibilities with implications.

Lets not bring false facts and "I would do this" into this topic. We do not have all the facts and we don't know how these fiction characters would act under all situations.

Maledict · 12/10/08, 11:23 AM

Let's be blunt. We all know the reason the old god's skull and sword is there is because it looks *cool*, and introduces the players to the Blackfathom Depths storyline. (Which pretty much vanishes afterwards for most of the game).

WoW is designed around set pieces, not around some vast depository of lore. Worrying about whether the old god in Darkshore is actually an old god, and the feasbaility of keeping him there, misses the point - if it turns out that Blizzard needs something to evidence the power of the Old Gods, it will be referenced. If they don't, he won't ever be mentioned again. We're trying to pull together a cohesive thread involving all these small aspects of the game, and ultimately when you get down to it, the lore just doesn't work like that. If something is fun and cool they will run with it, if it isn't they won't. By getting sidetracked into the minor details that Blizzard have put in the game just to make it more interesting, you end up missing the wood for the trees.

You're never going to figure out the properties of an old god through the skull in darkshire - it's just not a big part of what they are. It's old, low level content that doesn't have any firm details around it - easy to speculate, but ultimately yno-ones ever going to get a decent answer, and it's unlikely Blizzard will provide one. Best to focus on the stuff we know to be true in game.

Rhaegal · 12/10/08, 11:29 AM

My point, which admittedly I could have worded better, was that it seems like poor planning on the part of the Titans if it is, in fact, still alive and just being imprisoned. You're absolutely right that we don't know what power the Titans left on it to ensure it wasn't removed. The options, whether it's an old god or not, seem to be either (a) it's still alive, and they left the sword there to keep it imprisoned with some enchantment/whatever to keep it from being removed, and they made the assumption that no one more powerful or more clever than them would ever find it, or (b) it's dead, and the sword is embedded so thoroughly that even the Titans were unable to remove it, so they just left it there. Given how little fanfare they left around it, the latter seems more likely. I was merely stating that if it was the former, it doesn't make sense that they wouldn't leave behind some indication that it's worth protecting--whether there's a temple (or whatever) or not, someone will come along someday, see a big shiny weapon sticking out of a huge skull, and want that power for themselves. If "Good Guys" don't have any information to say it's a good idea to protect it, why would we bother?

Anyway, I apologize if it sounded like I was just outright trying to disprove you--obviously I agree that there's no proof either way, but I don't see why speculation on this specific topic wouldn't belong in a thread that's half speculation already.

@Maledict: Fair point about it being old, mostly irrelevant content. If they ever flesh out the whole "killing Old Gods would destroy the world" a little more, Blizzard could easily go back and modify Master's Glaive and the quest text around it to fit whatever they decide is "right". Wouldn't be the first time.

Maledict · 12/10/08, 11:33 AM

Just syaing it's very easy to get side-tracked with stuff from the original game that was merely placed there because it was fun. Look at the Scythe of Elune and all the time spent trying to work out where the Dark Riders were etc etc. In the end, there's nothing in Karazhan and Arugal turns up in Northrend "because he's cool". The low level stuff from the original game just seems to have a lot of inconsistenices in it that make it a very shakey foundation for discussion. They've gotten a lot better at keeping things coherent now.

Take anything from the original game with a huge, huge bowl of salt basically.

Kuthumii · 12/10/08, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Maledict

Let's be blunt. We all know the reason the old god's skull and sword is there is because it looks *cool*, and introduces the players to the Blackfathom Depths storyline. (Which pretty much vanishes afterwards for most of the game).

WoW is designed around set pieces, not around some vast depository of lore. Worrying about whether the old god in Darkshore is actually an old god, and the feasbaility of keeping him there, misses the point - if it turns out that Blizzard needs something to evidence the power of the Old Gods, it will be referenced. If they don't, he won't ever be mentioned again. We're trying to pull together a cohesive thread involving all these small aspects of the game, and ultimately when you get down to it, the lore just doesn't work like that. If something is fun and cool they will run with it, if it isn't they won't. By getting sidetracked into the minor details that Blizzard have put in the game just to make it more interesting, you end up missing the wood for the trees.

You're never going to figure out the properties of an old god through the skull in darkshire - it's just not a big part of what they are. It's old, low level content that doesn't have any firm details around it - easy to speculate, but ultimately yno-ones ever going to get a decent answer, and it's unlikely Blizzard will provide one. Best to focus on the stuff we know to be true in game.

Some people are more interested in Warcraft lore in general over just WoW WotLK lore. The Darkshore guy is indeed a small detail, but small details are usually worth mentioning.

By getting into the minor details you can get more storyline or perhaps get an idea of things Blizzard has planned or could use, you don't end up missing anything.

Exactly how much do we know to be true that hasn't already been discussed? The thread title doens't say "discuss lore & storyline facts only." Speculation is part of Warcraft lore, it has been for a long time. To be blunt, if you don't like the discussion, stay out, do not try to force people to do it in a way you want.

Any quests or anything having to do with us going to fight Sartharion? We did do quests for that flight at the temple after all. Or is it just a boss for the sake of a boss with no lore like a good deal of them?

Rapscallion · 12/10/08, 12:40 PM

I see a more pragmatic need for Blizzard to make sure the upcoming interim raid dungeons, have at least some relevance with the current main villain of the story. Seeing as the Icecrown citadel will be the finale to the expansion, that means we're at least a year away from it going live, they can't just freeze the whole Lich King character buildup, whilst we potter away dealing with other 'apocalyptic' threats.