From his description, he's been brooding over the loss of his wife for thousands of years -- presumably ignorant of the rest of the world while the other Watchers were somehow eliminated.
We'll see I'm sure. I'd sure be disappointed if Thorim, Freya, and Hodir were generically corrupted and needed to simply be offed. There is so much bigger storytelling space there.
If they wanted to make it really interesting:
Loken was actually working for Sargeras (his father, from the quote, "The work of your brothers in the Storm Peaks has reached a frenzied pace. Soon, Father will be freed. "). Sargeras plans include freeing the Old Gods, starting with Yogg-Saron in Ulduar. Thorim is actually working for Yogg-Saron, and the whole questline in Storm Peaks was a ruse to get us to kill Loken. This way Yogg-Saron can free himself without involvement from Sargeras. Probably not going to happen.
But, there are many interesting quotes that make it seem like the whole questline in Storm Peaks and our subsequent killing of Loken was a master plan from somebody. For example, during the Thorim-Loken encounter, Loken says:
Loken says: As for your life, mortal. I will be generous. After all... why would I destroy my most useful servant? I waited for you for weeks inside that Hyldnir mine.
Loken says: The shape wasn't mine, of course. And had you not been so reckless, you would've seen past my illusion. But you came through for me, and for that... I must thank you!
Yogg-Saron:
Trust...is your weakness...
Hope..is an illusion.
It seems, that the whole quest line dealing with Loken upto his death in HoL has both advanced Yogg-Saron's escape and accelerated the return of Titans to Azeroth. The main person to benefit from both would be Sargeras.
I'm sorry, but you are going down the rabbit hole again.
Loken's quote from the end of that questline is simply a "haha" tag revealing that you've been working for him all along (as befits his Loki nature, and a theme from the expansion as a hole).
That fact that Yogg-Saron whispers something that also mentions the word illusion doesn't mean there's some master plan wherebye someone outside of every character we have encountered or know of in Wrath is manipulating events. Again, occams razor - Loken manipulated us to getting thorim back into action because he was the last Watcher free that Loken hadn't dealt with. Loken didn't plan on us killing him in the Halls of Lightning (see his quotes form the fight), that was just us paying him back for the trickery around Thorim.
Blizzard are writing *stories* to tell, not puzzles. You don't introduce huge new characters at the end of a story for no purpose other than to say "Gotcha!" when there's a much more logical and sensible storyline and explanation already there.
Don't know about you, but if I were guarding some ancient evil of incredible power and preventing it from getting out... I'd be pretty darn annoyed too if some young upstarts came around and possibly try to free it. They don't even need to be corrupted - there's enough reason for them to kill you already. As in, if they (The Watchers) destroy you, you can't release Yogg-Saron.
Who's to say that 'you' (the character) didn't go insane from Yog's whispers and are trying to release him as if in his service? [e] Mind you, not actual insanity - but it can be hard to distinguish between the two as Watcher when the end result would be the same.
That said, I quite like the above explanation about corrupted Watchers turning on non-corrupted Watchers. [/e]
Originally Posted by Jagiya
EDIT: I'm not sure how I feel about YS sitting on the bench until 3.2. The only way I can see them kinda making it work would be if they had some character (let's just say Loken for sake of discussion, we'll just pretend it was only his avatar we killed in the Halls of Lightning) parasitically-infused with YS, so we end up fighting Loken with a bunch of tentacles and Old God powers and whatnot. We kill him, YS retreats to AN to mend his wounds and calls on some Nerubian backup. I can kinda see it working. But the whole idea just seems tacky. The production of Storm Peaks, Icecrown and Ulduar sits well, and if you ignore the (dis?)connection between AN & YS, then it all moulds together nicely. They've invested a lot of lore and backstory into Ulduar, with absolutely nothing to fall upon in AN. Who would all the sub-bosses in AN be? A bunch of random nobodies; just for the sake of preserving Yogg-Saron for a high-demand raid zone. I just can't see it happening. As soon as I read the news on MMO-C, I immediately thought to myself, "Well, that confirms no AN raid."
Darkspeaker R'Khem comes to mind.
Last edited by Duilliath : 02/18/09 at 6:08 AM.
Ignorance can be solved with a book. Stupidity requires a shotgun and a shovel.
Who's to say that 'you' (the character) didn't go insane from Yog's whispers and are trying to release him as if in his service? [e] Mind you, not actual insanity - but it can be hard to distinguish between the two as Watcher when the end result would be the same. That said, I quite like the above explanation about corrupted Watchers turning on non-corrupted Watchers. [/e]
So you're saying that we shouldn't enter, as in, leave the place alone and not release something that could get all of Azeroth in a huge mess? I guess the logical argument against that is that players like to explore and raid in the literal sense of the world - we'd be storming inside the place just to get our hands on precious stuff. Having said that, I think there will be obviously better motives for us to enter the instance than just... pillaging. I guess they haven't built up the story entirely.
And with Night of the Dragon having just been released, and having Deathwing tied to no larger plots... I think it's safe to say that he's up in 3.2.
To be honest, Deathwing looks more like a patch 4.3 thing to me - it'd be very easy to make him the final boss in the next expansion, and he is pretty much the only major character who could take the role now (unless they manage to build up Azshara's threat). Granted, I haven't read NotD yet, so I'm not up to date on dragon lore.
I'd say 3.2 will be dragon-related, but mostly by developing the other Chambers in Wyrmrest (which might introduce more Deathwing rumors anyway). And we also might get the Mandatory Troll Raid(tm) - Zul'drak seems to be the only place in Northrend where they could place another raid instance (unless they add another little zone like they did with Sunwell).
About Ulduar, I think the explanation for why we'll be going there is fairly simple: Yogg-Saron may be locked in there, yes, but he certainly has found a way to keep on corrupting Northrend and/or the Scourge, so we need to kick his ass for good - and risk freeing him in the process.
I love the idea that we might be helping the bad guy. If Ulduar is a prison and the 'bad bosses' are actually his jailors, what is compelling us to reach Yogg-Saron and free him? Ingame, this could be explained with us being corrupted by his influence. I could see a scenario where we overcome the last Guardian and free Yogg-Saron. From there we are free of our corruption but only just get to realise the magnitude of our acts, and that the guardians/titans are understandably furious.
Yogg-Saron doesn't necessarily have to be a boss to be in Ulduar. He might simply be in his 'contained' state and the actual Ulduar end-boss is the Supreme Guardian/Jailor of sorts. After their defeat by our hands, Yogg-Saron is free to escape and retreats back to Azjol-Nerub and bides his time, until 3.2. Theres a few ways to keep Yogg for a future raid instance, whilst keeping his presence/appearence in Ulduar intact.
How many times in an RPG story has the player character released some unspeakable ancient evil (often times after being warned by those guarding it not to do it) only to kill it 5 minutes later? Magtheridon is a pretty easy example. I don't see why we need to be "tricked" into releasing him at all. We'd do it on our own, for the loot.
How many times in an RPG story has the player character released some unspeakable ancient evil (often times after being warned by those guarding it not to do it) only to kill it 5 minutes later? Magtheridon is a pretty easy example. I don't see why we need to be "tricked" into releasing him at all. We'd do it on our own, for the loot.
We knew what we were doing when we killed Magtheridon. We knew who he was, why he was there, why he was imprisoned, we were given a reason why he had to die (actually, more than one, if you think about the TK attunement that I like to call the 'A'dal wantetd to kill me' chain).
We're supposed to be in the dark about what's inside Uludar. We're going in expecting answers to questions, and instead we find an Old God. It would actually be nice if we pulled the whole Loken/Teron Gorefiend bit again. Corruption or not.
Originally Posted by XI-
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
To be honest, Deathwing looks more like a patch 4.3 thing to me - it'd be very easy to make him the final boss in the next expansion, and he is pretty much the only major character who could take the role now (unless they manage to build up Azshara's threat). Granted, I haven't read NotD yet, so I'm not up to date on dragon lore.
I'd say 3.2 will be dragon-related, but mostly by developing the other Chambers in Wyrmrest (which might introduce more Deathwing rumors anyway). And we also might get the Mandatory Troll Raid(tm) - Zul'drak seems to be the only place in Northrend where they could place another raid instance (unless they add another little zone like they did with Sunwell).
About Ulduar, I think the explanation for why we'll be going there is fairly simple: Yogg-Saron may be locked in there, yes, but he certainly has found a way to keep on corrupting Northrend and/or the Scourge, so we need to kick his ass for good - and risk freeing him in the process.
My vote's on the Isle of Dun'Raid'n. As for Deathwing, at this point in time he seems more like Dick Dastardly than anything else. We go about our usual business each expansion, come across one of his "nefarious plots" and deal with it in short order before leaving to deal with real villains.
And as for Ulduar, our characters don't know what's there. All we really need at the end of the instance is for a dying Evil!Thorim to throw out a comment or two along the lines of "Nice job breaking it, hero" and we're set.
I'm basically looking for a faction-based lore "hook", similar to the Scryer/Aldor/SSO interest in the IQD daily quest hub.
Well then, remember that the Scryer and Aldor factions were new ones in TBC, so don't look for an analog in original player factions. I see exactly two quasi-realistic possibilities, based on the factional structure of Wrath: Frostborn/Tanuka, or Silver Covenant/Sunreavers. (I'm going to reject Frenzyheart/Oracles right out... though it would be hilarious...)
My suspicion is that neither pairing will "kick in" for Ulduar. I haven't seen Frostborn and Tanuka as truly opposed. It really looks like the "main" opposed factions that are going to be filled in later are Covenant/Sunreaver, and I don't think Ulduar will be part of the content patch that fleshes out their conflict.
Edit:
I'd say 3.2 will be dragon-related, but mostly by developing the other Chambers in Wyrmrest (which might introduce more Deathwing rumors anyway). And we also might get the Mandatory Troll Raid(tm) - Zul'drak seems to be the only place in Northrend where they could place another raid instance (unless they add another little zone like they did with Sunwell).
Would something involving Arugal, Worgen, and maybe even the Scythe of Elune have raid potential? I'm not 100% clear on exactly what his state is at the end of all the GH quests.
I don't think Ulduar has any reason come with a pairing of opposed Alliance/Horde factions. If the only lore-based reason for going into Ulduar is "omg epix", then maybe we'll see some scuffling at the gates as Alliance and Horde try to get in first, but if the threat is serious enough, I wouldn't be surprised if these minor groups of Alliance and Horde who understand how important this is actually put aside their differences to deal with it.
As for Horde groups who might be contributing the technology for it... I wouldn't count on it. While this definitely would be a cool opportunity for the Gnomes and Dwarves to shine for Alliance, the Horde really don't have anyone. The only "technology" we can claim are some Scourge stuff that the Forsaken inherited and mostly arcane-based constructs from the Blood Elves, neither of which seem to fit the motif of storming the gates of Ulduar. It'll most likely be goblin-related--even Horde's means of traveling from city to city via zeppelins is a goblin thing, not our own invention.
Well then, remember that the Scryer and Aldor factions were new ones in TBC, so don't look for an analog in original player factions. I see exactly two quasi-realistic possibilities, based on the factional structure of Wrath: Frostborn/Tanuka, or Silver Covenant/Sunreavers. (I'm going to reject Frenzyheart/Oracles right out... though it would be hilarious...)
My suspicion is that neither pairing will "kick in" for Ulduar. I haven't seen Frostborn and Tanuka as truly opposed. It really looks like the "main" opposed factions that are going to be filled in later are Covenant/Sunreaver, and I don't think Ulduar will be part of the content patch that fleshes out their conflict.
The obvious Alliance faction for Ulduar is the Explorers' League. Their main reason for being in Northrend is Titans and anything Titan-related, if they weren't the major players in Ulduar I'd be disappointed. Hell, they wouldn't even have to be purely Alliance either, Brann in particular has proven to be pretty uninterested in the Alliance/Horde conflict (the Halls of Stone event is the same for Horde I assume?). If I had to guess we'll get a single, neutral faction that serves both Alliance and Horde. Explorers' Expedition?
Edit:
Would something involving Arugal, Worgen, and maybe even the Scythe of Elune have raid potential? I'm not 100% clear on exactly what his state is at the end of all the GH quests.
Arugal's current state of mind is pretty empty, considering we killed him. And even before that I don't think he had much on his mind anyway, he appears to be a pretty mindless tool of the San'Layn after they raised him from his grave in Silverpine. The Scythe itself is still somewhat of a mystery, but I doubt Blizzard will make it a big plotpoint in this expansion, if at all.
Looks like the "voltron" reference gears up for a penultimate boss made up of the 5 watchers together. Maybe as a last ditch effort to keep us from freeing YS, or it could be the optional boss where the more you leave up the more voltron together to kick your butt.. We can also expect to see a thematic hard-mode mechanic in Ulduar, something along the lines of the previously mentioned "kill for easy mode, redeem for hard mode". It would be a lot easier to have the same or similar hard mode mechanics for most or all of the bosses than making up new ones each time. I think we can also expect Loken to return with a giant crystal through his chest as well because he is well developed and also very accessible being a 5man boss.
Edit: My bad, not the actual watchers themselves but the flame leviathan and his counterparts.
I think people are reading a bit much into the Voltron reference, but we'll see I suppose.
'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.
I wouldn't be surprised if these minor groups of Alliance and Horde who understand how important this is actually put aside their differences to deal with it.
There's already the position of Jaina/Thrall to provide a reason for Alliance and Horde players to go to Ulduar without wanting to bash each others heads in. There are lots of themes in WoW of certain individuals recognising a greater responsibility even if the majority of the faction or leaders don't get it.
Wrynn et. al. are free to continue to campaign and pursue petty side-fighting in Icecrown while us few responsible ones go off to Ulduar to deal with whatever's there.
In any case, just because the boss encounter being tested is called Freya or Hodir doesn't mean we will necessarily be fighting against them. We could just as easily be fighting with them against something else. Having Freya in there to try and rescue Thorim is at least as plausible as the "oh look, we're all corrupted" scenario.
Originally Posted by Shaker
Blacksen is actually a computer AI developed by IBM to tackle the world's hardest AI problem: Out-trolling Zyla.
I think people are reading a bit much into the Voltron reference, but we'll see I suppose.
Well...they did say the hard mode for the first boss will involve leaving the 4 towers up. Form arms and body...form feet and legs...and of course, the actual boss forms the head.
I suppose hard mode would then be a severe DPS check, as you'd have to burn him down before he can cast Form Blazing Sword...as that should pretty much one-shot the whole raid.
As far as purpose goes, I figure we'll learn very early on during Ulduar progression that YS is a definite source of power for Arthas, and that if we ever want to have a hope in hell in beating Arthas, we should kill this Old God. Do you really think it's a co-incidence they slipped in the words "of death" when talking about Yogg-Saron in that release? The moment I saw it, I thought, "Hah, you clever people. Subtlely connecting the dots."
That's exactly what I thought. When Kil'jaeden imprisoned Ner'zhul in the Frozen Throne he made him incredibly powerful, but presumably with any great affinity for necromancy. Possibly because he discovered a great source of necromantic power in Yogg Saron. In which case, what happens to the Lich King if Yogg Saron dies?
That's exactly what I thought. When Kil'jaeden imprisoned Ner'zhul in the Frozen Throne he made him incredibly powerful, but presumably with any great affinity for necromancy. Possibly because he discovered a great source of necromantic power in Yogg Saron. In which case, what happens to the Lich King if Yogg Saron dies?
Would it be ridiculous at this point to consider that maybe Yogg-Saron got into Ner'zhul's mind when he landed in Northrend and made him rebel against the Legion? Perhaps killing Yogg-Saron would not be a bad thing for the Lich King. This just kind of crossed my mind. Personally I always thought Ner'zhul's selfish actions spoke for themselves, but I'm putting out a new angle here because of how the Old Gods work.
I wonder if Arthas will show up in Ulduar(Cameo, not encounter)...
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For the lurking Phoenix Wright faithful.
What is the most important thing to you? Won't you grant me the pleasure of taking it away.
That's exactly what I thought. When Kil'jaeden imprisoned Ner'zhul in the Frozen Throne he made him incredibly powerful, but presumably with any great affinity for necromancy. Possibly because he discovered a great source of necromantic power in Yogg Saron. In which case, what happens to the Lich King if Yogg Saron dies?
It would be interesting to see how Yogg-Saron's death affects the Scourge war machine considering they use his living blood as armor. I'd have to think their supply of armor would be cut off as another 'reason' we are able to win against the Scourge.
Didn't Arthas fight an Old God in Warcraft 3 TFT? I wouldn't be surprised if that was Yogg Saron (and the reason his blood is all over the place) and that what we are doing is finishing off another weakened deity. However that begs the question of his location because in TFT you fight the Old God in the depths of Azjol Nerub, whereas current Blizzard information indicates that Yogg Saron is imprisoned in a jail of some sort in Ulduar.
In which case, what happens to the Lich King if Yogg Saron dies?
He gets even more weakened? Much like the single-player event where you destroy Arthas' heart (ok, some random paladin dude does it)?
The Lich King "living" part got problems piled. He got diseased (Wrathgate), his remaining weakness (heart) clobbered for 25% of his hit points. And now we're going after a major power source: A necrosomething parasite... sorry, a Death God whose solidified blood is a major power source for Lich King's magic...
All those events are setting the Lich King for an epic fail sooner or later (ok, in 2010, given the pace of content releases).
I should be getting my own full issue shortly for the summary.
Cho'gall is alive, Darnassus is in peril due to the emerald dream's corruption.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CX81UJZ8
For the lurking Phoenix Wright faithful.
What is the most important thing to you? Won't you grant me the pleasure of taking it away.
In any case, just because the boss encounter being tested is called Freya or Hodir doesn't mean we will necessarily be fighting against them. We could just as easily be fighting with them against something else. Having Freya in there to try and rescue Thorim is at least as plausible as the "oh look, we're all corrupted" scenario.
Seems like a bit of a stretch. I mean they never referred to the Illidan encounter as Maiev...
Didn't Arthas fight an Old God in Warcraft 3 TFT? I wouldn't be surprised if that was Yogg Saron (and the reason his blood is all over the place) and that what we are doing is finishing off another weakened deity. However that begs the question of his location because in TFT you fight the Old God in the depths of Azjol Nerub, whereas current Blizzard information indicates that Yogg Saron is imprisoned in a jail of some sort in Ulduar.
Considering Yogg-Saron has influence expanding across at least 50% of the Northrend land mass, paired with the fact that Azjol'Nerub is a fairly expansive underground cavern - you can safely conclude that Arthas probably only bumped into one of Yogg-Saron's toes or something.
It seems to me that it would be very easy to give us a reason to go to Ulduar, other than just a chance to get new purples. We already know Thorim was taken. It wouldn't be too difficult for the women of Brunhildar (I think I butchered that) to tell us that there's word that he's still alive inside Ulduar and they need our help to rescue him. Freya's avatar could easily give us the same information but for Freya herself. And again with the Sons of Hodir. We could be the good guys going to rescue our friends, or we could be the pawns who were led inside and decieved. Made to believe our friends were corrupted and that we alone can destroy YS.
Seems like a bit of a stretch. I mean they never referred to the Illidan encounter as Maiev...
Hardly an accurate comparison. The objective of the encounter wasn't to rescue Maeiv; she just joined in for the killing blow. Think more along the lines of Akama.
02/18/09, 4:24 AM
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