World of Warcraft - Lore & Storyline discussion [SPOILERS] - Page 91

panny · 01/06/09, 4:38 AM

Can we stop using the word 'Evolve' when talking about the races of wow? It makes them sound like pokemon.

Re: that chart, didn't the Titans create dragons too? I assumed proto-drakes were less advanced versions.

Ukerric · 01/06/09, 6:35 AM

Originally Posted by Verne

With the current lore and what information we have it seems the elementals were one of the first "races" of Azeroth who ruled Azeroth (under the command of Old Gods).

Current "wisdom" from Titan archives is that the Old Gods weren't around on their first visit. The necrotic parasites called Old Gods infested Azeroth between the two visits. So, at that point, Elementals weren't under control by Old Gods.

Kirth · 01/06/09, 7:24 AM

Originally Posted by Verne

Even more eventually we reach the War of the Ancients and the explosion of Well of Eternity. This explosion causes futher mutations and evolution, especially to Night Elves who lived near the Well. The Night Elves then evolve into Satyrs and Naga. Goblins also might have mutated from trolls at this point (or earlier?).

Goblins were around prior to the explosion of the WoE, Satyrs were a creation of Sagaras and evidence points that the Naga, while created during the events surrounding the explosion of the WoE, were not a result of it. All of this is confirmed in the War of the Ancients trilogy.

One interesting thing I find is you have Titans and Old Gods. where do all these Demi-Gods fit into things (Ursoc, Elune, Agmaggan, etc...)

Mman · 01/06/09, 9:31 AM

Originally Posted by panny

Can we stop using the word 'Evolve' when talking about the races of wow? It makes them sound like pokemon.

What word should be used then? Evolution is a real world phenomena, and it is one way to describe what has happened from the original titan creations and the formation of humans and troggs. Whether or not this evolution is the equivalent to real world mutations is another question. The curse of flesh can just be a euphemism for mutations that occurred naturally, or it could literally be a curse put upon the titan creations by some unknown beings. The formation of the races are a pretty fuzzy thing. The question I keep coming back to, is if the titan's have created hundreds of worlds, how did they fuck up with Azeroth so much?

Leguaran · 01/06/09, 9:32 AM

Originally Posted by Kirth

Goblins were around prior to the explosion of the WoE, Satyrs were a creation of Sagaras and evidence points that the Naga, while created during the events surrounding the explosion of the WoE, were not a result of it. All of this is confirmed in the War of the Ancients trilogy.

One interesting thing I find is you have Titans and Old Gods. where do all these Demi-Gods fit into things (Ursoc, Elune, Agmaggan, etc...)

I've had the opinion that some Demi-gods (let's call them original Demigods, like, say, Malorne) were given charges by Titans to watch over smaller aspects of the world. However, natural breeding and mating between some of these Demigods with either divine entities or one another caused a whole second league of Demigods to come into being (say, Cenarius), who shared some of their parent's powers and also took on their duties.

Verne · 01/06/09, 9:32 AM

Originally Posted by Kirth

One interesting thing I find is you have Titans and Old Gods. where do all these Demi-Gods fit into things (Ursoc, Elune, Agmaggan, etc...)

There is really not much information about the origins of the demigods. I would guess all demigods and primal gods of trolls actually belong to the same group. Primal gods are another interesting aspect of Warcraft lore. Where did they come from and where do they live?

My own guess is that the primal gods are another extraterrestial race, much like the Titans and the Naaru, who arrived to Azeroth after the elementals and Old Gods were banished. The trolls begin to worship them and later other species too, giving them other names. Some of these primal gods prefer to stay hidden, like Elune, while some have direct contact with the mortals, even creating new species to their own image (Agamaggan). All these demigods and primal gods seem to have some animal side to them which would suggest they belong to the same group.

Their powers vary greatly. Their powers could even be directly connected to the amount of worship they gain. Without any bigger worshipping a primal god would be as powerful as the most powerful mortals (like our faction leaders, and us at level 90 or so). The most powerful primal gods would be just below Old Gods and Titans.

Another version of origins of demigods I find plausible is that they are much like the dragon aspects, blessed by the Titans who also gave them their powers and a duty to watch over the species of Azeroth. You could call them "lesser" aspects, I guess.

After the Titans' departure some of them might have got bored and started doing their own experiments with the Titans' machines that were left behind and thus Azeroth gained more species, like the Quilboars and Furbolg.

edit: as to why Azeroth got so screwed up... It wasn't the Titans' fault. It was the Old Gods. Everything was going well until the Old Gods came and started doing their own "experiments". When Titans came back and tried to fix what the Old Gods had done they found out they actually can not do anything so they changed the plan and gave some native species powers so they could watch over the evolution and the curse while the Titans were away.

zoombini · 01/06/09, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Verne

as to why Azeroth got so screwed up... It wasn't the Titans' fault. It was the Old Gods. Everything was going well until the Old Gods came and started doing their own "experiments".

Then that leads to the question as to where the Old Gods come from - are they a 3rd all-powerful spacefaring faction? Was Azeroth the first time the Titans encountered them? Have they encountered them since on any other worlds?

Liebestod · 01/06/09, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by Ukerric

Current "wisdom" from Titan archives is that the Old Gods weren't around on their first visit. The necrotic parasites called Old Gods infested Azeroth between the two visits. So, at that point, Elementals weren't under control by Old Gods.

iirc it doesn't actually say that, just that the Old Gods weren't detected at first. Whether this means they weren't around is debatable.

Starfire · 01/06/09, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by zoombini

Then that leads to the question as to where the Old Gods come from - are they a 3rd all-powerful spacefaring faction? Was Azeroth the first time the Titans encountered them? Have they encountered them since on any other worlds?

Err who is the 2nd? The Naaru aren't all-powerful. Except for A'dal the individual Naaru seem relatively weak...

And it does appear in Shadowmoon Valley the Arrakoa are summoning what looks like an Old God; of course it is also possible they are summoning an Old God from Azeroth and not from some other planet/region.

Duodecimal · 01/06/09, 12:04 PM

The Burning Legion is the other powerful spacegoing faction (after the Titans).

Verne · 01/06/09, 12:07 PM

I really doubt the Old Gods are a space-faring faction. If they were it would make no sense for them to pick up one single planet to occupy, wage war against each other on and defend the rights for it to death with the Titans.

My guess is when the Titans first time arrived in Azeroth all they saw was the elementals fighting each other (actually the Old Gods fighting each other) but did not see the background forces influencing the elementals. So the proceeded to banish the elementals and started molding Azeroth to their liking. The Old Gods are propably smart enough to know when they are outnumbered so they waited until the Titans left Azeroth.

The Old Gods started fiddling with what the Titans had left behind on their first visit and when they could not bend the creations of the Titans under their will they created the Curse of Flesh. The Titans returned and found out about the Curse of Flesh and that's how I guess they found out about the Old Gods and the war for Azeroth began, with Titans emerging victorious and the Old Gods banished under the surface of Azeroth.

The Titans aren't able to find a working cure to the Curse of Flesh so they appoint aspects/demigods to watch over the evolution of races on Azeroth.

edit: So if the Burning Legion counts as a space-faring faction, then so does Naaru. Neither of these factions are as powerful as the Titans however. The Naaru (individually speaking) seem to be way more powerful than the the Legion but the Naaru are few compared to the millions of the Legion.

The Ethereals also seem to be a space-faring race along the Draenei (with the help of the Naaru). We also have to take in account that does dimensional warping count as space-faring?

Liebestod · 01/06/09, 12:16 PM

They could easily turn the Old Gods into a race of eldritch space fleas. I think they're moving in that direction myself, but the evidence is far from solid at this point. In which case the conclusion would be that the Old Gods on Azeroth are just a few members of a race or organization or whatever that's spread across the cosmos. They could use an explanation of why they're on Azeroth in either case, and "they were just always there" doesn't seem particularly satisfying. I think that any development of the origins of the Old Gods is going to lead in the direction of their either being extraterrestrial or possibly related to some greater evil.

• Melthu · 01/06/09, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

I can't find any problems with that chart, except Goblins evolving from Trolls, which seem a bit unconfirmed. I still think it's more likely that Gnomes evolved from the mechagnomes and then Goblins spurred off from that, given that the races are a mirror of one another in terms of intelligence, height, interests, etc, yet obviously different on many other fronts.

Aren't goblins in their natural state pretty unintelligent? I thought most of their intelligence came from exposure to kaja'mite. If the kaja'mite gave them their intelligence then pretty much the only thing they have in common with gnomes is height. Of course, it's also possible that goblins are a mistaken mutation from the mechagnomes and kaja'mite fixed that mistake, bringing them closer to their gnome cousins.

andastra · 01/06/09, 1:02 PM

The Old Gods storyline, to me, seem to be moving toward them being like Lavos in Chrono Trigger. There are differences, sure, but the concept seems to be a species of parasite that moves from world to world.

After the Sargeras-Eredar retcon, I wonder if these will now be the ones that corrupted Sargeras, instead of the Eredar and Nathrezim.

Kirth · 01/06/09, 1:12 PM

It was the last boss of Arcatraz, Harbinger Something, who gives us a hint that the old gods are something more then just from Azeroth. Believe this was mentioned in this thread previously. I guess the logical conclusion to that line is that the Aquir are not of Azeroth as well.