Yes, and I happened to stumble upon this (note: spoiler alert) while browsing through various WOW forums. It uses the new Blizzard phasing technology and it is an interesting way for characters to have more interaction with NPCs. It seems that Blizzard is finally incorporating more elements of successful RPGs into the game so that the game is more than just kill x of these or collect x of these type of quests. Kudos to Blizzard for that.
No, you just ruin the first half to all but those that are the very first to run it. I was in a group that used the Scepter every single Maura I did until I was running a buddy through at level 70. Making the first half of an instance skipable just means it won't ever be run. And then what's the point of having it?
That was because the first half was dull and tedious and didn't have much in that anyone wanted after they'd done the quest though. LBRS kept being run long after people had the key to UBRS, for example.
That was because the first half was dull and tedious and didn't have much in that anyone wanted after they'd done the quest though. LBRS kept being run long after people had the key to UBRS, for example.
What's the difference between BRS being two entirely different instance portals to how people ran it when it was a relevant dungeon? It really has no continuity between the two wings as far as gameplay goes.
The problem with LBRS was that UBRS needed to stay a 10 man, but all the LBRS quests were 5 man quests. As a result, no one wanted to pug lbrs as a 5 man because it was an easy clear as a 10 man but actually took a decent group as a 5 man. That's why shared portals are a bad thing. They could have made it so that you could see things exactly as you can now, just have the door to UBRS be a portal, and it would have played out exactly the same but LBRS would have been a 5 man as it was intended to be.
As much of a "continuity-breaker" as it would be, instances like BRD needed just 2 simple things too make them desirable.
1) Raid-type ID's that would save a particular group to an instance together but not lock you out if you had a new group.
2) A "save point" system within the instance that would allow your group to reform up. Perhaps within the instance there would be several teleportation stones that the dwarves use to use to get around... Then players could meet Character X near the door who would ask if they had a stone on them so they would be sent to their destinations.
I know it would be a slight stretch from the current situation, but it would avoid the need to have UNIQUE ID's that cause trash to stop respawning (which breaks the realism) while still allowing people to do a multiple night excursion.
There are several ways to impliment a "save point" system without there being literal save points, or even teleportations. For example, if you make the geometry of the place right, you can have bosses drop keys, or have a lever behind him, or simply have his death activate something. The pieces of level that change can range from elevators, to gates and doors, to drawbridges. BRD actually had several of those, but they were all ways of advancing further into the instance than the trigger, not ways of returning to it. Karazhan's back door acted in this fashion. In theory, the Gatekeepers in Mechenaar could have acted this way, although in practice you didn't stop that instance half-way through.
On questing, immersion, and design: I think, honestly, the fact that WoW is mostly a parallel single-player experience has been one of its largest draws to this point. The advantage to this style of game is that the player can pick it up and play it for any desired length of time. You get the immersive feel of multi-player because you can see other people around you doing the same or different tasks, but you don't depend on them to progress. Of course, this changes at the level cap, which becomes the draw for most of the rest of us.
I've been really impressed with how the single-player (i.e. leveling) element has been handled in WotLK (don't worry Hildy, no spoilers). There are significantly more quests which go beyond the usual kill bears/collect bear asses grinds. Many, many quests are progressive tasks leading toward a larger goal, and sometimes these change the visible world to the player or move the story along in ways that haven't been possible in Vanilla/BC. There are solo quests with NPC help that are designed to feel like larger and more important tasks. Like toaster mentioned, there are also some familiar characters returning or appearing for the first time, bigger players in Azeroth's world show up than we've seen before, etc.
Overall, these create the sense that what the player does is more urgent and critical to the fate of the world. There's lots more foreshadowing and good storytelling in the quests, and the player has a noticeable impact on what's going on. The build-up to later raid instances is pretty exciting, too-- Illidan was a hobo squatting in a rundown bus terminal, compared to Arthas.
And on that topic, considering what a lot of players complained about in BC: now that I think about it, a lot of BC zones were based almost entirely around side-plots that didn't obviously fit in with an overarching storyline. Hellfire was a war zone in the Burning Crusade, and made sense. But then, Zangarmarsh was about water supplies and mushroom people; Terokkar focused on bird people and the catastrophe at Auchindoun, which wasn't always clearly explained; Blade's Edge had the ogres and Gronn. Nagrand, at least for Horde, did have a compelling and story-advancing plot, though not clearly linked to bosses/endgame BC. Only Netherstorm and Shadowmoon Valley had any clear lead-ups to a true villain, and yet they feel relatively disconnected story-wise from the rest of Outland.
Wrath fixes this issue significantly, though it's true the early dungeons don't have a clear purpose for running them necessarily (they feel more like you're investigating on some NPC's behalf-- "dude, wtf is up with that place? Go in, you'll probably find out more when you're 80 though"). Of course, there are still side plots that add flavor (I do love the Tuskarr), but the zones don't lose focus-- there are two major plots building from the beginning that both have clear ramifications for Azeroth. Combine that with phasing technology so the player has an impact on the world around them, and you get a lot of moments that just made me stop and say, "Wow." I'm actually motivated more by finding out what happens next than just getting to level 80, and that's good design.
I'd love to see a few sprawling instances designed as 5 man raids - starting with something equivalent to 'heroic BRD'. One per raid tier, balanced to be a decent challenge to raiders on off nights or a progression path for good players that can't or won't raid. Gear would be a tier behind the tier's 10 man in heroic, tier appropriate blues in normal. This comes from having a group of five real life friends - we recently got our latest set of alts to 70 together and it would be nice to have indefinite progression without LF5M.
Usually new games on the market inspire Blizzard to use some of the best features to include them in their own game. So does someone here play Warhammer and has encountered new stuff that would enhance WoW for good ?
Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde
The use of action points, a quickly regenerating resource used to power most of your basic abilities, is a fantastic feature that makes playing any character fun, but Blizzard will never use it in place of their mana system, of course.
I've got only limited experience with Warhammer but one feature which I did greatly enjoy was the inventory system. First of all, it allows for seperate panes for quest items and normal items which helps considerably with uncluttering the inventory. Furthermore, if I remember correctly, you can switch between an icon view and a list view for your items which also facilitates finding things quickly.
I don't know if this thread is the right place but I'd like to hear a couple other opinions about WoW's inventory. I find it to be one of the most lacking features in the entire game at the moment. Even with third party mods and instant mail from character to character it just doesn't seem to be a very intuitive or effective system. There are simply too many items and even with relatively effective (read anal) item management one is forced to fill up the character panel with bank alts, there's no way around it. I really think a server wide shared banking inventory would be a good thing. Maybe some kind of wardrobe/clothes hanger function could be implemented which allows for efficient storage of older tier armor sets. Anything which would streamline the whole process and take the mailbox out of the picture.
The use of action points, a quickly regenerating resource used to power most of your basic abilities, is a fantastic feature that makes playing any character fun, but Blizzard will never use it in place of their mana system, of course.
This is really not extremely far off from how Death Knights work though.
A member of my guild asked me how DKs were to play. His main is a rogue. I explained to him that it's like "upside-down" rogues.
A rogue has two resources: energy and combo points. Energy starts full, and regenerates at a fixed rate. Combo points start empty and stay empty unless you do something. You use abilities that consume energy and produce combo points, and when you have enough combo points, you can expend them to do something else, and then you start over.
A Death Knight has two resources: runes and runic power. Runes start available, and when used have reasonably short, fixed cooldowns per rune. Runic power starts empty and stays empty until you do something. You use abilities that trigger rune cooldowns and produce runic power, and when you have enough runic power, you can expend it to do something else, and then you start over.
This sounds to me like it has similarities to the "action points" you mention.
I can also confirm that, for me, playing a DK has a subjective "feel" closer to that of a rogue (or cat druid) than any other class in the game. I found myself falling into the same percussive habits, the same rhythm-based ability triggering, that I get into on my rougelike characters. It's obviously not exactly the same, but I think it's the closest match. I think the best rogue players are going to make outstanding Death Knight players -- I look forward to some of my rogue buddies finally being able to play an outstanding tank.
Usually new games on the market inspire Blizzard to use some of the best features to include them in their own game.
I can tell you that the phasing mechanics in beta remind me of some of the "book/chapter" progression stuff from LotRO. The achievement system too, with its titles and mostly-cosmetic rewards. Wrath definitely took lessons from LotRO here.
I just did a google search on Warhammers Public Quest. The following link should give everyone enough information for the further discussion
This sounds to me like a fantastic idea, and something that I think would be great in especially dailies in WoW. It could be tricky getting it into "normal" quests I suppose. If it's a one-off quest, and you don't stay til the end, does that mean you don't get that blue at the end of it?
On the other hand I wouldn't mind mixing it up a bit, and don't mind Blizzard keeping some of the LFG-quests. Call me old-fashioned, but I enjoy the slightly more epic feel you get from finally getting a damn group and killing Nathaniel Blightcaller. Both systems could probably co-exist though.
This sounds to me like a fantastic idea, and something that I think would be great in especially dailies in WoW. It could be tricky getting it into "normal" quests I suppose. If it's a one-off quest, and you don't stay til the end, does that mean you don't get that blue at the end of it?
When the final stage of the public quest is completed the game does a roll and if the winner is lucky he gets a blue applicable to his class, a few minutes later the quests reset to stage 1, the system isn't really compatible with the idea of "one off" quests.
When the final stage of the public quest is completed the game does a roll and if the winner is lucky he gets a blue applicable to his class, a few minutes later the quests reset to stage 1, the system isn't really compatible with the idea of "one off" quests.
If you really boil down the reward mechanics, a public quest probably has more in common with an instance PUG than any form of quest - you take a group of people and an investment of time, and a couple of lucky fellows get some loot. Unless you fail one of the later stages and the public quest restarts, which is roughly equivalent to failing to kill an instance boss and having the trash respawn.
If you want to keep doing it again and again until you get the loot you want, you can, as opposed to a quest that you do once for a reward, or a daily that you can only do once a day.
I think we have to be careful to not let nostalgia for WoW classic overshadow the analysis of TBC design elements. While there are clearly some things that were better in classic compared to TBC, like the environmental design of the 5 man instances, other design decisions are much less clear.
Let's look at various game elements and their design differences between classic and TBC.
a.) Zones and Quests
I remember clearly when TBC hit live and we were leveling our chars, that people here were mostly elated about zone and quest design in TBC. Hellfire Peninsula, Zangarmarsh and Nagrand are among my all time favorites, when it comes to questing and the general feel of the zones. Terrokar and Netherstorm are a bit sucky (the ghost village in Netherstorm is an exception though, for it's fantastic surreal feel), while Shadowmoon Valley is good, even though a bit cliche in it's visual design (all evil and dark). All quests in TBC stay mostly within the zone and with the exception of Blades Edge Mountains there are plenty of quests in each zone.
Compare this to WoW classic. The zones were usually exceptional good up to a level range of 29. Once you hit the the thirties zone design started to lack significantly. Yeah you had Strangelthorn Vale, which is a fantastic zone for questing and also in terms of environmental design, but then you had all the Desolaces and Dustwallow Marshes, The Blasted Lands The Badlands, and The Hinterlands and other completely forgetful zones until you hit the Western and Eastern Plaguelands. Searing Gorge, Burning Steppes and Feralas looked definitly interesting, but there weren't many quests available there, and the same goes for Azshara, which is reall a shame, because it's one of the most enigmatic zones ever.
With three exceptional leveling zones out of six, TBC doesn't look that bad at all. In fact I'd say that zone and quest design were one of areas that were a markable improvement over WoW classic.
b.) Dungeon Design
TBC dungeons suck. Such goes the common opinion here. Well yeah, they suck in their environmental design in being short hallways, but do they really suck when it comes to gameplay?
Long before TBC was released people on the boards claimed that they wanted more dungeons that followed the Scarlet Monastery and Dire Maul design, i.e. short wings, doable in under an hour. Nobody, really nobody, has praised Blackrock Depths as a good dungeon design. People got what they wanted. Scarlet Monastery as every dungeon hub. Only when the hallways turned out to be getting boring quick, people started to remember BRD fondly.
BRD is stunning, but like Sydane pointed out, it's not really playable in MMO reality. Nobody likes to ask, if their group can make a little detour through x trash packs so that they can get their quest finished. The TBC dungeons are easily accessible though boring after the third run. It's a tradeoff really. A tradeoff that was much better handled in WoW classic than in TBC. You got your Scarlet Monastery, and Dire Maul (which was although winged leagues better than any of the TBC 5 mans), but you also got your BRD, LBRS, Scholo and Strat.
To sum it up: TBC dungeon design is what happens when you listen to the unwashed masses on the forums. The public asked for short and straightforward dungeons and they got it.
c.) City design or why Shattrath is the Projects of WoW.
A little less often discussed topic, but considering the amount of time that people hang out in cities also an underrated I'd say.
People liked to hang out in Ogrimmar because it had a natural design. It was a real city, with a houses and streets, a central square between the bank and the auction house, with uneven ground and a palm tree on it. It was asymetrical and the bank had a roof you could jump in circles on it. The wind rider was on a tower overlooking the city, and when you came out from a mage portal you first were greeted by the serene ambiance of a troll architecture enclave in a shallow pond with step stones in it, and when you left it you could literally take a plunge to the right into the heart of the city, if you knew which roofs you had to jump on to reach the bank quickly and safely.
In short Ogrimmar was fucking great. It was a home.
Now let's look at Shattrath. It was planned so well, wasn't it? A circular mostly symmetric design, with a central place that people were supposed to be gathering in (the inside of the temple). Two banks to disperse the crowds and two terraces that people would have exclusive access to, depending whether they've chosen Scryer or Aldor allegiance. You had portals installed in the temple making it even more the central crossroads of WoW. All so very well planned.
Did it work out? At least on my server there are more Horde hanging out in Ogrimmar, than in Shattrath. In fact no one "hangs out" in Shattrath. People do their business there and move on. It's like the business district of a large city, busy but lifeless. Not a home. The only part that feels somewhat natural about Shattrath is the Lower City. Shattrath is what happens when you overengineer things. When designers try to make artificial accommodations to theorycrafted behavioral patterns of human beings. It blows. Ogrimmar was probably done by someone who just designed a horde capital without putting much thought into the working of player crowds ins MMOs. But it has charme, which Shattrath hasn't.
It's the same as with the instances. It was all very well thought out, but somehow the creativity got lost along the way. which is my main gripe with many changes from classic to TBC: over engineering.
To be fair, I suspect the real reason that Shatt is comparatively underpopulated is that it has no class trainers or auction houses (also on my realm at least, Shattrath is always much more populated than, say, Ironforge, so I don't think your argument can be universally applied).
When you're idling waiting for people to log or for pugs to join your group or what have you it's more convenient to be in a city with an AH, where you can easily respec if the party/raid requires it.
This was intentional IIRC, as Blizzard wanted to make sure you had a reason to keep visiting the Azeroth cities.
c.) City design or why Shattrath is the Projects of WoW. snip
Did it work out? At least on my server there are more Horde hanging out in Ogrimmar, than in Shattrath. In fact no one "hangs out" in Shattrath. People do their business there and move on. It's like the business district of a large city, busy but lifeless. Not a home. The only part that feels somewhat natural about Shattrath is the Lower City. Shattrath is what happens when you overengineer things. When designers try to make artificial accommodations to theorycrafted behavioral patterns of human beings. It blows. Ogrimmar was probably done by someone who just designed a horde capital without putting much thought into the working of player crowds ins MMOs. But it has charme, which Shattrath hasn't.
It's the same as with the instances. It was all very well thought out, but somehow the creativity got lost along the way. which is my main gripe with many changes from classic to TBC: over engineering.
Are you sure that wasn't the intention? They could easily have put an auction house and class trainers in Shatt, and I am willing to bet that you would have been able to count on one hand the number of people still hanging out in old-world cities. Look at Shattrath for what it is: a huge temple on an alien planet, and while we have business there it definitely isn't 'home'. It isn't a city, really, it's a sanctuary and a military camp. There are refugees camping out in the lower tiers, there are soldiers drilling and marching around the 'streets', and most notably there isn't even any actual housing, while all of the other major cities have buildings scattered around for flavour purposes.
While it was meant to be a hub, and it was engineered as such, I don't think Shattrath was ever meant to replace the capitals as the 'city hubs' of the world. Whether that was a mistake or not is a different discussion. They've taken pains to make Dalaran seem more like a bustling city, which I think is pretty cool, but at the same time they're still not obsoleting the old world capitals. I think I'm rambling at this point, but the gist of my argument is that the expansion's sanctuary cities serve a different purpose than other cities, and as such are designed differently. I definitely prefer Dalaran's style, though :p
To be fair, I suspect the real reason that Shatt is comparatively underpopulated is that it has no class trainers or auction houses (also on my realm at least, Shattrath is always much more populated than, say, Ironforge, so I don't think your argument can be universally applied).
When you're idling waiting for people to log or for pugs to join your group or what have you it's more convenient to be in a city with an AH, where you can easily respec if the party/raid requires it.
This was intentional IIRC, as Blizzard wanted to make sure you had a reason to keep visiting the Azeroth cities.
When Blizzard first mentioned that they don't add class trainers and AH to Shattrath to keep the old cities alive it was considered naive. After all everyone has an AH alt (now the the intra account mail delay is removed there is even less a reason to do AH business on your main), and you don't respecc every day. And if people hang out LFG wouldn't it be better to do it in Shattrath, where you have all the portals to the various parts of the world?
No, from my observation people hang out in Ogrimmar, because it's more fun to do all the posing and people watching there and not in Shattrath.
The "no fly" zoning in Dalaran is a step back to old world city feel, and shows that the developers realized, at least for this one aspect, that ground traffic enriches the atmosphere of a city, instead of allowing the faster but somewhat irritating short distance hopping on your flier. I'm really hoping that Dalaran will feel more of a city than Shattrath.
No, from my observation people hang out in Ogrimmar, because it's more fun to do all the posing and people watching there and not in Shattrath.
If this is the major incentive then players will go to whichever major city happens to be the most populous, regardless of its design. After all, it's the people that are the interesting part.
In any case, as it seems the behaviour is not consistent across servers (from our admittedly completely unscientific observations) I don't think any universal design inferences can be drawn. For every person who prefers Orgrimmar because it feels like an organic city, there will be another who prefers Shatt because of its functional layout.
In my opinion, Public Quests aren't all they are cracked up to be. It's very much dependent on who is in the area, and you pretty much need a tank and healer. Also, if you get too many people it devolves into a zerg. They're fun if you start with a decent group, but that defeats the "public" aspect. They sort of remind me of Alterac Valley, only without guaranteeing that you have enough people to actually defeat the boss.
Also, Random + Modifier is a terrible loot system.
Things from WAR that are worth stealing (in my limited experience):
1. Quest integration with the map. This is superbly done, and completely eliminates the need for outside quest sites like Thottbot.
2. Queuing for scenarios from anywhere in the world. Lots of fun. Queue up, go quest, scenario pops, PvP, then go right back to questing.
3. I like the repair mechanic. You can find broken gear which can be repaired by a vendor into an item for your class. Kind of like tokens, but for general questing.
4. No random quest drops. If a quest sends you to collect 5 Livers from Bears, the first 5 Bears you kill will have Livers, unlike the alcoholic bears of WoW.
This is really not extremely far off from how Death Knights work though.
A member of my guild asked me how DKs were to play. His main is a rogue. I explained to him that it's like "upside-down" rogues.
A rogue has two resources: energy and combo points. Energy starts full, and regenerates at a fixed rate. Combo points start empty and stay empty unless you do something. You use abilities that consume energy and produce combo points, and when you have enough combo points, you can expend them to do something else, and then you start over.
Indeed, DKs have a finely designed system that makes them manage their resources yet does not allow them to go "oom" for long periods of time. Same with rogues, and in fact WAR Witch Hunters/Witch Elves use a copy of the WoW rogue combo system (the only difference being that their five "combo points" are personal rather than bound to a target). However, many WoW classes still use mana which runs out, and changing it would require some pretty major mechanic changes, which will not happen as Blizzard stated that they want mana management to be part of the game.
4. No random quest drops. If a quest sends you to collect 5 Livers from Bears, the first 5 Bears you kill will have Livers, unlike the alcoholic bears of WoW.
Do WAR quest items have 100% drop rate, by any chance? Hell, even 50% has to be a great boost over the days of Murloc Heads, Spider Ichor and Bear Flanks.
3. I like the repair mechanic. You can find broken gear which can be repaired by a vendor into an item for your class. Kind of like tokens, but for general questing.
I've pondered the possibility of an "every quest an upgrade" system. Basically, whatever quest you do leads to an upgrade for one of your items. Even if it's just a tiny upgrade, doing your dailies and coming out with twenty-five tiny bonuses for the gear you're currently wearing feels like real progress.
10/01/08, 1:50 PM
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