We walked through all of Naxx except Patchwerk last night and he just seemed to be smacking our HS tanks too hard. Does anyone have rough numbers on HP, AC, avoidance minimums to consider doing him in the 25man version?
On our first kill I had roughly 30k hitpoints, 15% dodge/parry/block and 24k armor raidbuffed. It's important to note, that you do not need to be immune to crits, as hatefull strikes can not crit at all.
I achieved those figures easily with the blue crafted blacksmithing gear, some tier 6, the odd heroic blue and a Flask of Stoneblood.
The average hatefull before the enrage was in the 26k range, which still leaves a buffed to survive a hatefull even if I wasn't fully topped. If you use an Ironshield Potion, Shieldwall, Last Stand and a clicky Trinket for the 5% Enrage you shouldn't have problems with tank deaths there either.
Regarding Patchwerk, does anyone have the damage range for Hateful Strike?
The one I assumed it to be seemed unlikely after I received a 51k Hateful Strike with roughly 21.6% DR (23.1% vs level 80), which would put it's max damage at about 66k instead the 56k mentioned in the spell.
The thing is, this was the highest spell I could find on wowhead named Hateful Strike.
Regarding Patchwerk, does anyone have the damage range for Hateful Strike?
The one I assumed it to be seemed unlikely after I received a 51k Hateful Strike with roughly 21.6% DR (23.1% vs level 80), which would put it's max damage at about 66k instead the 56k mentioned in the spell.
The thing is, this was the highest spell I could find on wowhead named Hateful Strike.
Sorry to derail a bit... We did Spider wing and Plague up to Loatheb yesterday. Everything went pretty smooth, but after checking the WWS I'm a bit confused.
Is the parser bugged for naxx 10? Maexxna doesn't show up at all. Noth parses also look very strange (kill try has almost the least damage done). Each Heigan's teleport phase is a separate try in logs. What the Eck?..
I don't think so, it was pretty early in the fight.
We had our melee dip into the slime before starting to dps. We had the tanks move patchwerk closer to the ditch and let melee dip their backs once in a while to reduce their HP.
Seemed to work fine and none of our melee group eat any hateful strikes.
We had our melee dip into the slime before starting to dps. We had the tanks move patchwerk closer to the ditch and let melee dip their backs once in a while to reduce their HP.
Seemed to work fine and none of our melee group eat any hateful strikes.
Explain, for the benefit of the audience, how Hateful Strike works. Thanks.
The amount of misinformation surrounding hateful strike is amazing, even after 30+ months of original Naxx release.
There are only three viable targets for hateful strike, and these are the three people 2nd, 3rd, and 4th on his aggro list within melee range. Hateful strike will hit the highest HP person out of those 3. Additionally, hateful strike will add threat to the target it hits, which helps keep these tanks on that hateful strike list. This is the reason where if your 3 hateful tanks are low hp, he would still hateful one of them and kill them, disregarding the fact that there were melee dps with higher HP.
Typically, the threat added by getting hit by a HS is more than enough to maintain these tanks on the hateful list, however there were occasions where tanks dropped off the list due melee dps pushing more threat than what HS gave your offtanks, but that was only seen during times where you'd run the old Naxx with level 70 people.
Sinking your melee into the slime doesn't help anyone, it's just stupid and you should quit doing it.
1) It's only the #2/#3 in 25-man, and #2 in 10-man.
2) When he HSes it actually adds threat to EVERYONE currently in the top 3 (or 2 for 10-man) on the threat-list. This is 100% transparent now. Just watch Omen or other threat-meter, during the fight. Every time he does an HS, everyone at the top of the list will see their threat jump upwards.
1) It's only the #2/#3 in 25-man, and #2 in 10-man.
2) When he HSes it actually adds threat to EVERYONE currently in the top 3 (or 2 for 10-man) on the threat-list. This is 100% transparent now. Just watch Omen or other threat-meter, during the fight. Every time he does an HS, everyone at the top of the list will see their threat jump upwards.
Interesting - I never did Patchwerk at 60, and I had heard varying explanations of how it worked, mostly either the above, or the 'highest health target' version. I had (wrongly) assumed that the idea of 'priming' your HS tanks by sending them in before the melee, and them gaining threat from HS, was misinformation, largely since it seemed a more complex and less intuitive mechanic than the highest health version (which obviously reared it's head in TBC on Supremus).
Yesterday my guild did Patchwerk for the first time in the 25 man version. We had already killed him on two separate groups on the 10 man version. I personally killed him pre BC - but I cannot really speak for the rest of my guild in that department.
I had always assumed that the Hateful Strikes did a lot of damage - but it was extremely manageable on the 10 man. I cannot recall precisely my guild's strategy pre-bc (I was playing a rogue at the time) - but I seem to remember them assigning priests to simply chain cast a downranked Gheal on whoever their assigned tank was. So I set everybody up for the pull, fully assuming that the Hateful strikes would be hitting a tank for 1/3rd to 1/2 of their HP per hit and boy was I in for a surprise. Every now and then when our Death knight OT did not have Bone Shield up, it would hit him for 35,000 damage - instantly one shotting him. The other offtanks were warriors, and every time they got hit I would see their HP drop to < 5%. Once one of our warriors claimed that he dropped as low as one hit point.
Basing this off of just how easy the rest of the instance has been, it feels like my tanks are extremely undergeared or the damage for Hateful Strike wasn't tuned properly. I somehow do not see a PUG doing this any time soon, unlike how so many other people have claimed. Although we did eventually down the boss, our strategy felt mostly like "Assign 2-3 healers to each tank, spam heals, pray." The enrage component feels mostly pointless now. While this was a serious concern in WoW classic, killing him with two and a half minutes to go until enrage when half of the raid is wearing greens kind of defeats the purpose.
I'm not claiming that it's too difficult, it didn't take us nearly as long to kill this incarnation of Patchwerk as it did in the 40 man days, but my tanks were wearing at least 2 pieces of Tier 7 (varying from the 10 and 25 man version) as well as many other assorted Naxxramas/Heroic epic tanking gear. Am I not remembering this correctly or did Hateful Strike always bring tanks to <5% HP from 100%?
I'm not claiming that it's too difficult, it didn't take us nearly as long to kill this incarnation of Patchwerk as it did in the 40 man days, but my tanks were wearing at least 2 pieces of Tier 7 (varying from the 10 and 25 man version) as well as many other assorted Naxxramas/Heroic epic tanking gear. Am I not remembering this correctly or did Hateful Strike always bring tanks to <5% HP from 100%?
We switched it up and used a feral druid as our 'primary' strike taker and it ended up being much smoother due to the deeper hp pool.
Make sure you are taking advantage of beacon of light and armor-buff procs. The MT is going to be your easiest target to heal so focus your best geared players on the hateful tanks.
You pay for the whole chair, but you only need the edge.
We was using a MT + 2 OT healing strat and tanks were getting destroyed. We moved the majority of the heals to heal myself (our best geared tank, feral druid) which worked a lot better for us with only 7 healers in the raid. This basically made it a MT / OT instead of MT / 2 OT fight. With enough heals the first OT was staying above the other OT hitpoints (I believe he actually was dipping too). I know this probably isn't the correct strat and may cause some issues this week, but it worked for 7 heals decently.
@Ryanb - your tank is very undergeared and/or debuffs are not staying up on Patchwerk. Memory from last week he was hitting me for 18-19k, if demo ever faded HS was 20-22k. A feral should be able to take 2 HS just fine if debuffs stay up.
Edit: Actually it might've been hitting for 20-22k if an armor buff faded on myself from priest/sham.
Is anyone seeing a bug with Sapphiron when he's in the air? Our rogue was dead going into the flying phase and sapphiron didnt spawn any ice blocks at all resulting in a wipe.
This sounds like ye olde targeting-totem-and-not-doing-anything issue (Not Sapph40, I mean in general). The number of blocks seems extremely inconsistent, at the very least. Also Blizzard wandering into the sole iceblock makes me want to punch things.
This sounds like ye olde targeting-totem-and-not-doing-anything issue (Not Sapph40, I mean in general). The number of blocks seems extremely inconsistent, at the very least. Also Blizzard wandering into the sole iceblock makes me want to punch things.
We found when we killed him last reset that you don't need to be hugging the ice blocks to block los and prevent being killed. Tested it during a wipe standing about 20 yards back from the block keeping it between us and the bomb drop spot.
[e] 10 man version, haven't done the 25 yet.
You pay for the whole chair, but you only need the edge.
Unless the block is riiiiiiight at the back, or on the inner ring (which causes similar terrain/LOS issues as KJ shields, gah), in which case replace 'punch things' with 'punch people'.
10man: 2-3 heals, 2 tanks, 5-6 dps. Some fights are easier with 2 heals, some fights are nearly impossible without 3 (4H comes to mind).
25man: as you would expect, 5-7 heals, 3 tanks, 15-17 dps.
I would expect some fights will see healer stacking, "hard mode" Sartharion comes to mind. There wasn't anything very healing intensive in 25man Naxx, though.
We had a group clear the 10 man with only 2 healers (and none of the hybrids assisting or respeccing).
For 4H, a CoH priest kept healing up on both melee tank groups, running in range between mark ticks.
Once you get a bit of gear it seams 1 tank, 1 offtank, 2 healers and 6 DPS is the best to go.
We've cleared all Naxx sans Saphron and Kel'thuzad on 10man style.
This is in a mix of T6, dungeon heroics, and crafted gear. One of our tanks ONLY used crafted gear and the badge trinket from heroic MgT. We were able to tank patchwerk with 27k health no problem. We stacked allot of block so we could absorb his rapid punishment as the lower end gear doesn't come with anything but hit/expertise/def. There are some items with dodge/parry but they are few and far between.
It definitely helps walking into these instances with 20k+ armor, 23k health, and 1000Block value for warrior tanks. Naxx wasn't a challenge, but it wasn't a cakewalk. You just had to get around some of the wonky mechanics that have changed (heigans dance is slower now) and your healers are going bone dry faster.
Having a huge, monstrous 15k mana pool helps on fights like patchwerk when your healers are spamming heals over and over again to keep you up. He is a gear check for sure, you can't waltz in there with T5/6 and a few upgrades and beat him down (exceptional guilds non-withstanding). You need upgrades that come from heroics, dungeons, and crafted gear for everyone not just your tanks. DPS has to be rockin around 1800+DPS, healing has to be 14k+ mana pool, tanks with their 540DEF and gobs of health. That will make that place a breeze.
Also Blizzard wandering into the sole iceblock makes me want to punch things.
As mentioned above, clumping is not required. It can be a line of people all the way to the back which leaves very little exposure to blizzard.
"You are better than I am," Inigo admitted. "So it seems. But if that is true, then why are you smiling?"
"Because," Inigo answered, "I know something you don't know." "And what is that?" asked the man in black. "I'm not left-handed."
We switched it up and used a feral druid as our 'primary' strike taker and it ended up being much smoother due to the deeper hp pool.
Make sure you are taking advantage of beacon of light and armor-buff procs. The MT is going to be your easiest target to heal so focus your best geared players on the hateful tanks.
I'd just like to comment on this in case anyone else is having trouble with the healing/tanking part of this fight.
Our kill last night:
Druid Hateful tank - 1.6 million damage taken
Warrior Hateful tank - 1.1 million damage taken
Pally main tank - 1.0 million damage taken
If you are struggling with Hateful tanks dying try having your best geared tank as the first hateful tank, the next best geared as the other hateful tank and then your worst geared (of the three) as the 'main' tank.
However, remember that the main tank must still be defense capped and the hateful tanks do not have to. (We tossed our warrior as the main tank and he was crit and killed haha).
How exactly do the mind control orbs for Razuvious (10-man) function?
Asking since even after doing it several times last week it's still not clear to me, having had substantial trouble re-clicking after control breaks with no effect other than a "target cannot be charmed" message, yet other times it seemed to work fine without preselecting a target. Do you simply target the appropriate understudy and then click? Does it pick up the nearest understudy automatically?
We was using a MT + 2 OT healing strat and tanks were getting destroyed. We moved the majority of the heals to heal myself (our best geared tank, feral druid) which worked a lot better for us with only 7 healers in the raid. This basically made it a MT / OT instead of MT / 2 OT fight. With enough heals the first OT was staying above the other OT hitpoints (I believe he actually was dipping too). I know this probably isn't the correct strat and may cause some issues this week, but it worked for 7 heals decently.
@Ryanb - your tank is very undergeared and/or debuffs are not staying up on Patchwerk. Memory from last week he was hitting me for 18-19k, if demo ever faded HS was 20-22k. A feral should be able to take 2 HS just fine if debuffs stay up.
Edit: Actually it might've been hitting for 20-22k if an armor buff faded on myself from priest/sham.
IIRC debuffs don't affect HS damage because it is a "spell" that deals a flat amount of damage (53-56k). The only thing that affects how much damage it deals should be armor and defensive stances.
How exactly do the mind control orbs for Razuvious (10-man) function?
Asking since even after doing it several times last week it's still not clear to me, having had substantial trouble re-clicking after control breaks with no effect other than a "target cannot be charmed" message, yet other times it seemed to work fine without preselecting a target. Do you simply target the appropriate understudy and then click? Does it pick up the nearest understudy automatically?
Each orb is tied to one understudy and clicking it will automatically recontrol that mob. If you release control of the mob before your channel bar goes away then I think you have some sort of mind exhaustion debuff that will prevent you from controlling again. If you use the full duration though you should be just fine.
We're a 6/6 Sunwell guild who cleared the 25 man version of Naxx for the first time this week, having had no problems with most bosses including Patchwerk and 4H but we just couldn't kill Gluth. Kiting the zombies didn't work as the mages were running out of mana all the time using improved blizzard. The removing of downranking to stop the PVP whining really screwed us up in PVE, I used to have no problems with the kiting back in the old days using rank1 improved blizzard - this no longer works, obviously. We'll have to find a new tactic with hunter traps and earthbind totems. I haven't seen Sapphiron and KT yet in this version of Naxx, but Gluth is head and shoulders above the other bosses right now in terms of difficulty.
Any hints on how you arranged and successfully executed a kiting strategy in the 25-man version?
NOTE: Earlier on in this thread, somebody was talking about mages not being effective against Sapphiron because of frost immunity, this is not the case. Frostfire spec does very high damage on frost-immune mobs, it's only fire-immune mobs that would gimp its DPS since Ignite wouldn't work any more. You can look at some WWS parses floating around to verify this.
Each orb is tied to one understudy and clicking it will automatically recontrol that mob. If you release control of the mob before your channel bar goes away then I think you have some sort of mind exhaustion debuff that will prevent you from controlling again. If you use the full duration though you should be just fine.
There is no longer any debuff that prevents you from mind controlling immediately again. For 10- or 25-man version. For 10-man we use our two tanks to have the two understudies MC'd all the time (making quick releases and regrabs when there's time, since the channel only lasts 90 seconds).
Any hints on how you arranged and successfully executed a kiting strategy in the 25-man version?
We had some issues the first few tries getting it working properly. Then we had our dps warrior respec into Piercing Howl, which made it trivial.
For Patchwerk, if you can, I'd definitely recommend using feral druid(s) as soakers for the hateful strike, it's really the perfect roll for us. For reference, our first week in there I was taking hateful strikes in the 20-22k range. The second week, with a bit better gear (specially the two armor trinkets I managed to pick up), it was down to 18-19k.
11/23/08, 2:39 AM
