Razuvious was changed a bit in that regard. The new version of Disruping Shout is no longer a mana burn, and also no longer LoSable, and is simply AoE damage on your entire raid. He also has a new Jagged Knife ability which will do a fair bit of damage to random targets, typically meaning that your lower health raiders will have to be topped off at all times.

It's still not a fight with very heavy AoE damage, but there's damage being taken by more than the adds now.

Again, I'm aware of how the fight works now. We've cleared the place 3 times on 10 man, and once on 25, and had zero issues. If they are having understudies dying, then a) they need to improve their bone shield/taunt timing, and b) the healers need to top off the understudies when they're not tanking.

Remember that Razuvious' Jagged Knife has a minimum range of 5 yards so have the entire raid pile on top of him to avoid it on as many people as possible.

Heroic Patchwerk gave our healers a wake-up call last night. My assumption had been that, if you had two OT's soaking up hateful strike, that he would always choose the one with the highest health. Judging by the logs (and our healer's experiences), this was not always the case. Sometimes hateful strike would hit the same tank multiple times, despit the other OT being topped off. Are there any other factors besides health which determines which OT is chosen ?

Log excerpt to illustrate HS inconsistancies
21:42'35.750 Patchwerk Hateful Strike was dodged by Harlequina.
21:42'36.063 Ilharess Greater Heal heals Marknight for 9148. (6824 Resisted)
21:42'37.266 Patchwerk Hateful Strike hits Harlequina for 20021 Physical. (1249 Blocked) (5661 Absorbed)
21:42'38.016 Foxxie Greater Heal heals Marknight for 15722. (Critical) (15722 Resisted)
21:42'38.250 Patchwerk Hateful Strike misses Harlequina. <---- why him when Markknight was clearly topped off?

To Ungeir and NekoZ on 10 man Razuvious:
You guys are definitely doing something wrong. Not to show off at all, because the fact that we were able to do this does not mean we’re imba, it just means it is that easy.

For reference: We entered Naxx 10 for the first time ever last night, with no real previous Naxx experience between us. We had 6 guildies, all with a good amount of vanilla and TBC experience but 4 of them on re-rolled WOTLK chars, the other healer had just turned 80 the night before and had gone resto literally 5 minutes before we got started. In addition, we had 2 trade channel PuGs with no raiding experience.

So, with 8 people, we killed Razuvious with little trouble. Admittedly, I was very low on mana in the end and died a few secs before Razuvious, and the adds didn’t have a whole lot of health left either, but with two more people (not to mention one of the randoms somehow finding it within himself to do more than 1.2k DPS…) it would’ve been an absolute joke.

As far as the MCing goes, we switched aggro often between the two adds (well before Bone Shield ran out) and released and re-cast the MC after every other tanking period, and it worked like a charm.

On the healing-the-adds side of things, I was able to use everything on them I can use on raid members, in particular Prayer of Mending and Power Word: Shield. My 14-15k crit Greater Heals didn’t really make much of a visible dent upwards in their health but they went down slowly.

If all fails, find a Holy Priest with Guardian Spirit – you can actually cast it on one of the adds, even while you’re already in Spirit of Redemption yourself (I did this just in case but the add didn’t end up needing it). Presto, instant 50% health on the add if it receives a killing blow with Guardian Spirit up. Yet, probably not the intended way of doing this

A full explanation of Hateful Strike can be found in posts 408/409 of this thread.

The problem here is that according to the logfile, the explanation for the mechanic cannot possibly be correct. See the excerpt posted by Kandir above:

Despite the fact that the first offtank Marknight was topped off, there was a long streak where Patchwerk always hit the second offtank Harlequina - even if he had considerably less HP at the moment (this becomes most evidently clear at the last Hateful in the series, which killed him). Since the two were #2 and #3 on the threat list, what is the reason for this?

The problem could be related to two things, latency, the server not having gotten the information that Markknight had more health, or him having moved out of melee range, though Patchie should've gibbed one of your melee then instead.

Basicly its lag. We have seen the same thing several times on brutallus where heals would hit right after a hit yet still overheal. There can be a delay in the combat log registering damage to a target and the server actualy updating said damage so in the case above what probably happend is that by the second hateful strike the damage on Harlequina has not yet been resolved and as such the server assumes hes still at full health.

On the topic of hateful strikes, this is what happend our last 25-man kill. All three tanks move in as usual. I eat the first hateful strike. And the second, third, and so on. Obviously the other offtank has full hp, but not any threat on the boss. After a few minutes the first melee goes down (who was #3 on threat), then a second melee (who also was #3 on threat at that time) goes down. Shortly after Patchwerk dies, without second offtank having gotten a single hateful strike.

I had about 42k health fully buffed, while second offtank was in the 34k range or so. I'm assuming the difference in max health and armor, combined with heals that landed at just the right moment, made the first hatefuls go on me. After that the possible targets were me and the rogue that was #3 on threat, but other than 2 times I had enough hp buffert to avoid the rogue getting gibbed.

Fully confirms the description of hateful strike that was given a couple of pages back.

Patchwerk was killed by my new horde guild tonight with 21 people on Heroic.

This fight puts a lot of pressure on your healers, especially your paladins.

I was able to confirm on my end (can't provide logs for proof as we didn't have WWS or anything running) that Hateful Strike on 25 man heroic might ignore threat, and simply hit the person with the highest health. I logged down everybody's buffed health to double-check this.

Our tanks consisted of

[Main Tank Protection Paladin]: 42,312hp
[Primary Soaker]: 46,001hp
[Secondary Soaker]: 42,971hp

The highest HP dps players in order from highest to lowest was

[Ret Paladin] 24,012hp
[Death Knight] 22,002hp
[Rogue] 21,217hp

I assigned one holy paladin to each of the tanks, with a holy priest on each of the soakers, and a resto druid on the main tank. (6 healers)

It was a very rough fight the longer it lasted, even with each holy paladin assigned their own tank to keep Beacon of Light on. Eventually, healing mana had gotten so low that each soaker was very low health at times. When this happened the Ret paladin went down first, followed by the Death Knight, and then the Rogue. This leads me to believe that threat does not play a role in factoring who gets hit by a Hateful Strike.

If you've been relying on the threat method, and your dps keeps getting insta-gibbed, I would reccomend trying two soakers with healers assigned to their own tanks. This worked fantastically for us as there were a lot less dps dead at the end.

Reliknom, people tried exactly the same in 40 man Naxxramas. For some it worked, for some it was worse than with 4 tanks. You can roll the dice of course and hope that the heals land in the correct timespot. Otherwise the hateful strike will kill some melee. This happened 2 years ago and in this regard the encounter didn't change a lot

I disagree, we couldn't make the fight work with only 1 OT at lvl60. We used 3 and that was that. Now the healing game is quite different, at least that's what I got told by our healers. We wiped trying to use 2 OTs and beat him on the first pull with 1.
(Also, staggering heals should be a baseline skill nowadays, especially after Brutallus.)

As Dodo already said, it just depends. We had our first 25-naxx yesterday. Healing a single OT @ patchwerk seemed nearly impossible as the hateful strikes hit for 20k and he only had 35k+ hp, so if due to any haste or whatsoever there is ONE second without a major heal incoming, he's dead meat. Two Offtanks, however, seemed pretty healable and we downed Patch. I'm sure with better gear, one Offtank would be sufficent. Double hits won't occur as often as now and could even be survived. Just find out what is easier for you. DPS is nearly a non-issue as it seems, the firstkill took barely 4 minutes. Not comparable to Brutallus at all. Healing is the only challenge here.

In short, because patchwerk already chose his target. Top your tank off faster, .2 seconds before HS hits isn't soon enough.

The heal .2 seconds before that attack was 100% overheal, showing that the tank was already topped.

I'm a bit over 28k unbuffed, which translates to 35k with full raid buffs. I do have a full set of WotLK gear though, and have enough defense to be able to use two different stam trinkets (Essence of Gossamer along with the Figurine - Monarch Crab). Only my helm is from a 25-man raid, though I have a pretty extensive collection of Naxx-10 gear. I wouldn't be surprised to be able to get close to 31k unbuffed if I had a full set of 10-man epics.

I haven't seen anyone mention the change of mechanics on Patchwerk. I'm fairly sure he had no aggro table in Naxx40, but at least in Naxx10 it's quite possible to overaggro. I was offtanking hatefuls and threw up JoL with a bunch of melee and accidentally overaggroed about ten seconds into the fight. Turned out to be a real boost, though, since Patchwerk has such a blazing fast attack speed and I can break 1.3k block value with the badge libram. He appears to be the pally-favoring boss for which we tankadins were begging Blizzard all throughout BC, and the healers ended the fight at 75% mana instead of 5% like the first week.

Of course he has a threat list. He had a threat list in the 40-man and he has a threat list now. He just attacks #2-#3 instead of #2-#4.

What is it about patchwerk that makes people flock to their keyboards to post stupid misinformation? Do you really run as a tank and not use omen? Try looking at it. You just overaggroed. Hint: Judgement of Light.

That makes no sense, then how are people able to two tank it?

Edit: Thats the important part, that the ability actually adds threat.

As was posted a few pages back and likely will need to be repeated ad nauseum... Heroic Patches HSs either #2 or #3 on his threat list, and chooses between them according to whichever has more health. Thus, if #2 (i.e., your primary OT) has more health than #3 and is always topped off within a second of taking a hit, #3 will never receive a HS and it won't matter if #3 is a tank or a rogue.

Mother of god. There's a post 3 pages ago some guy named like Praetorian that explained how hateful strike worked. He does not suffer fools lightly, nor relish explaining himself twice (from what I've seen). I'll try and simplify this EVEN MORE by making a list.

1. Hateful strike is an ability.
2. Hateful strike adds super duper threat to the 2nd and 3rd highest people on his agro list (in 25 man).
3. Hateful Strike hits the person with the highest health of those 2

That's it. No special tricks, no deep breaths, no ancient chinese magic.

EDIT: even better, here's the unabridged text of the two posts so nobody should have to repeat themselves repeat themselves:

The amount of misinformation surrounding hateful strike is amazing, even after 30+ months of original Naxx release.

There are only three viable targets for hateful strike, and these are the three people 2nd, 3rd, and 4th on his aggro list within melee range. Hateful strike will hit the highest HP person out of those 3. Additionally, hateful strike will add threat to the target it hits, which helps keep these tanks on that hateful strike list. This is the reason where if your 3 hateful tanks are low hp, he would still hateful one of them and kill them, disregarding the fact that there were melee dps with higher HP.

Typically, the threat added by getting hit by a HS is more than enough to maintain these tanks on the hateful list, however there were occasions where tanks dropped off the list due melee dps pushing more threat than what HS gave your offtanks, but that was only seen during times where you'd run the old Naxx with level 70 people.

Sinking your melee into the slime doesn't help anyone, it's just stupid and you should quit doing it.


Two corrections:

1) It's only the #2/#3 in 25-man, and #2 in 10-man.
2) When he HSes it actually adds threat to EVERYONE currently in the top 3 (or 2 for 10-man) on the threat-list. This is 100% transparent now. Just watch Omen or other threat-meter, during the fight. Every time he does an HS, everyone at the top of the list will see their threat jump upwards.