I was offtanking hatefuls and threw up JoL with a bunch of melee and accidentally overaggroed about ten seconds into the fight. Turned out to be a real boost, though, since Patchwerk has such a blazing fast attack speed and I can break 1.3k block value with the badge libram. He appears to be the pally-favoring boss for which we tankadins were begging Blizzard all throughout BC, and the healers ended the fight at 75% mana instead of 5% like the first week.
For Patchwerk, offtank(s) take more dmg than the main tank. If it's of any issue, you want your worst geared tank as MT and your best geared one(s) as OT. If your healers ended the fight with so much more mana, I'm guessing it's a combination of gear upgrades (of everyone involved) and a more appropriate choice of OT (was it a feral perhaps?).
Also having some troubles with Patchwerk 25-man. Having Cleared all 10-man content aswell as 3/4 wings 25-m Naxx, Sartharion etc - Patchwerk is bringing the biggest challenge as of yet. Everything compared to him is basically a cakewalk. I'm guessing our healers need more experience on the fight and better gear on our HT-soakers (they have est 35/32k hp which isn't always sufficent).
1) It's only the #2/#3 in 25-man, and #2 in 10-man.
2) When he HSes it actually adds threat to EVERYONE currently in the top 3 (or 2 for 10-man) on the threat-list. This is 100% transparent now. Just watch Omen or other threat-meter, during the fight. Every time he does an HS, everyone at the top of the list will see their threat jump upwards.
I remember we used to debate this point a bit way back when - and no one else really seemed to care (probably cause they had BoS!... ignore that). Anyway, I think your idea at the time was some sort of hate aura, and this appears to be similar to that. It is nice that with the new threat reporting its possible to unambiguously arrive at a conclusion to one of the two threat mysteries of Naxx that we proposed theories to. (I think the rest of Hateful was well known as described in the post you replied to.) I think we also mostly proved your theory on 4H deaggro with our KTM mod anyway.
The only thing I'd add is that in 40 mans, at level 60, the main tank was also on that hateful strike "list." If an offtank passed the main tank in threat, the MT and OT would switch (sometimes leading to disastrous consequences). Also the MT used to take the most damage back in 40 man naxx, which appears to have changed.
Also having some troubles with Patchwerk 25-man. Having Cleared all 10-man content aswell as 3/4 wings 25-m Naxx, Sartharion etc - Patchwerk is bringing the biggest challenge as of yet. Everything compared to him is basically a cakewalk. I'm guessing our healers need more experience on the fight and better gear on our HT-soakers (they have est 35/32k hp which isn't always sufficent).
The issue is not your HT soakers. I did 25 man patch in a pug on mal'ganis just this last week with one OT having 22k hp, 20k armor, and 36% avoidance unbuffed. Think he just broke 30k or had just under it when he was a HS soaker.
Healing was 2 disc priests, a paladin and 2 druids. 1 priest on a hateful, 1 priest on the MT, pally on the other hateful. Druids rolled hots on all targets, each was assigned a hateful to watch for swiftbloom for.
The paladins hateful was the one dieing (the undergeared one) and on the killing attempt, maybe 4th or 5th the other priest and I kept weakened soul on the tank that was always dieing.
The only thing I'd add is that in 40 mans, at level 60, the main tank was also on that hateful strike "list." If an offtank passed the main tank in threat, the MT and OT would switch (sometimes leading to disastrous consequences). Also the MT used to take the most damage back in 40 man naxx, which appears to have changed.
We had our MT/OT swap on 10 man Patchwerk last week, so it's definately still possible.
Typically, the threat added by getting hit by a HS is more than enough to maintain these tanks on the hateful list, however there were occasions where tanks dropped off the list due melee dps pushing more threat than what HS gave your offtanks, but that was only seen during times where you'd run the old Naxx with level 70 people.
I will say that I don't find this factually accurate at all. I waited 5 seconds this week before I started attacking, and 1 minute 12 seconds into the encounter I was killed by a hateful strike. I was watching omen carefully and I was seeing myself in 4th by 25k threat. Granted in the 5 seconds or so I watched my cooldowns I could have passed the 3rd tank, but I don't agree with the statement about rarely seen. I seem to remember dying to this every third week back when KTLH didn't even know what to do with threat.
And doesn't that mean, that for me, getting in the slime would actually help? I realize killing a melee is preferable over killing one of the OTs, but I have a lot of Health and quite obviously none of the mitigation. Their 25k health to my 27k buffed with Fort clicked off means I will eat a hateful.
Hey everyone, this is my first time posting here so I wlll keep it concise.
Our raid crew tackled Sapphiron in 10 man naxx for the first time tonight, our prot paladin repecced to holy and I helped our healers out with healing (Elemental shaman) however our healers (holy priest and resto druid) kept running oom by around the 2 to 3rd phase.
I'm wondering how much FR gear is needed for the fight? I'm inclined to think better movement on the blizzards is the key to survivability. I didn't see any posts regarding the currant Sapphiron so if there is any currant information here that I miss, I will gladly be directed to it.
No FR gear should be needed on Sapphiron. The key is to move away from the blizzards here, and there is no real way around sucking at that. We had no problem downing him with the Death Knight aura as the only resist, simply because people didn't take damage from the blizzards.
Hey everyone, this is my first time posting here so I wlll keep it concise.
Our raid crew tackled Sapphiron in 10 man naxx for the first time tonight, our prot paladin repecced to holy and I helped our healers out with healing (Elemental shaman) however our healers (holy priest and resto druid) kept running oom by around the 2 to 3rd phase.
I'm wondering how much FR gear is needed for the fight? I'm inclined to think better movement on the blizzards is the key to survivability. I didn't see any posts regarding the currant Sapphiron so if there is any currant information here that I miss, I will gladly be directed to it.
It can be done without frost resist but when we were learning the fight most people having a piece of frost resist gear made it a lot easier.
No FR gear should be needed on Sapphiron. The key is to move away from the blizzards here, and there is no real way around sucking at that. We had no problem downing him with the Death Knight aura as the only resist, simply because people didn't take damage from the blizzards.
The problem is sometimes the Blizzard will drift over the ice blocked target that you have to clump on, and with no FrR it's absolutely brutal to deal with.
The problem is sometimes the Blizzard will drift over the ice blocked target that you have to clump on, and with no FrR it's absolutely brutal to deal with.
As far as I know you don't have to clump directly behind the ice block. You just have to stand out of line of sight to Sapphiron, e.g. a few yards behind the ice block.
The problem is sometimes the Blizzard will drift over the ice blocked target that you have to clump on, and with no FrR it's absolutely brutal to deal with.
It really isn't to bad, when you realize that you don't have to be directly behind the block. It just needs to be in a direct line between you and where the breath hits.
The problem is sometimes the Blizzard will drift over the ice blocked target that you have to clump on, and with no FrR it's absolutely brutal to deal with.
There is no need to clump. You need to be out of line of sight, not stacked on the block. Make sure that you cannot cast spell on Saph due to LoS, and you're set. I don't even clump on the block now - it's just not needed at all.
While this is technically true, I feel compelled to point out that FrostResist is so easy to get (and effective) people are a little brash not to use it.
People shouldn't just take quotes like this to heart and assume that Sapphiron will be 'easy' for them too, because someone else did it. When I did the fight in no FR (10 man) I came away with the conclusion, "Yes its possible - but lets just make it easier for everyone and get the FR anyway". Especially for nights you might only have 2 healers on and one of the might not be geared or an AOE-happy healer.
Approximately 3/4+ of Sapphirons total damage output comes from his frost aura, when your raid wears no Fr. Thats a lot of unnecessary damage your taking - and only a minimal effort to reduce it substantially.
For those reasons I would recommend any entry-level guild, particulary if you have newer or lesser skilled/geared players, craft FR regardless of whether other people say it's needed or not.
Sapphiron was our brick wall as well, we had almost an entire night on it with 2 holy priests and a resto shaman, before we switched around someone and finally got replenishment from a ret pally, which then turned into a very comfortable 1 shot after that, I would make sure you have replenishment if you didn't already, we also ended up making a FrR bit for everyone as well, I believe the boots were the best for the mat/FrR cost.
Originally Posted by Xequecal
The problem is sometimes the Blizzard will drift over the ice blocked target that you have to clump on, and with no FrR it's absolutely brutal to deal with.
If you still maintain breaking LoS with the block you can walk backward out of blizzards for a nice distance, it can be a little difficult to accomplish and can lead to easy deaths if people don't keep breaking LoS but it proved vital in situations where blizzard was owning people behind blocks and 1 or more healers were blocked.
Hey everyone, this is my first time posting here so I wlll keep it concise.
Our raid crew tackled Sapphiron in 10 man naxx for the first time tonight, our prot paladin repecced to holy and I helped our healers out with healing (Elemental shaman) however our healers (holy priest and resto druid) kept running oom by around the 2 to 3rd phase.
We were short a healer and I had to respec from shadow for this fight tonight. Unfortunately, that left us without Replenishment - and we also had no paladin, so no Wisdom (and no source of resist buff, either). This composition made the fight extremely challenging, to say the least. A raid without Replenishment is severely hindered, I'm guessing this is your issue.
Our raid crew tackled Sapphiron in 10 man naxx for the first time tonight, our prot paladin repecced to holy and I helped our healers out with healing (Elemental shaman) however our healers (holy priest and resto druid) kept running oom by around the 2 to 3rd phase.
I was out of mana quite quickly on the first couple of pulls that we did too. It's one of those situations where you're not immediately sure how best to triage and it's easy to over compensate on early attempts. I don't doubt there's a bit of that going on with your healers, and that it'll pass.
It's a lot easier to heal once you relax into it. Trust your other healer/s, make the most of every cast (and get your raid to help you make the most of them too), pull out every regen trick you can and realise that people are very unlikely to just drop dead unless they're doing something wrong - hello cleave.
There were a few small changes we made that helped. People respecting Blizzard a little more was a big change, albeit obvious. We had one of the Paladins Judge Light. We made sure that the ranged and healers stayed a little closer together during the ground phase, to make best use of the AoE healing. We threw a mark on my head, to give people a loose spread point to head to in the air phases - which again meant topping up the raid was much easier and more efficient.
While learning this fight on 25mans us tanks(2 of us) put on 3 pieces of Frost Resist.
I scaled almost over 400 and that mitigated 60% of the frost damage that was kicking around which allowed for healers to focus on raid healing instead of worrying about me and needed less healers overall. We did it late into the night so only had one go but it was soley about people not moving out the blizzard and dying to frost breath. That's 90% of the fight.
On 10man I did the same which allowed us to clear it after 3 attempts with 2 resto shamans and a holy pally with no HoTs. It's brutal without a HoT monkey in Naxx, some of those fights require one to keep the tank alive unless they have a truckton of HP to be able to survive through some phases without healing (maxxena for one comes to mind).
Patchwerk was cake after getting some heroic upgrades and naxx/10 gear. We went from being mauled like a bear on porkchops to one shotting him after us tanks effectively increased our hp by 20% (Prot warrior in 32k hp, Druid Hateful: 40k, Prot warrior: 34k). Between putting on more dodge and gaining HP it wasn't as god awful for our healers. Melee still died due to hatefuls missing or just bad timing on healing but not much you can do there.
Our current ckblock was Thadius as the ledge boss managed to wipe out 30% of our raid on a go including yours truly who hit the windows key instead of the space bar to jump. The movement of raid around him is key from positive to negative. We put him in the middle of the platform and had tanks run in a tight circle around him positive to negative. I caution you as tanks to not take it wide but skirt right around feet so he spins easily enough. We had to yell at people to go wide around him as when I went wide the first time he wandered off to one of the corners for some odd reason and couldn't bring him back.
We killed him right as he enraged, I popped shield wall, and died right as he hit 10k health but we still won.
You can lose 2 people, 3 at max, and as long as you pop your bloodlust at the beginning you can pop another one at 20% and burn through him easily enough.
Are you guys running 10 man Naxx with 2 healers or 3? There are some fights we've done where the third healer is just twiddling their thumbs (Razuvious, Faerlina, Heigen, Loatheb, Gothik) and there are other fights where positioning or throughput requirements seems to mandate 3 healers (4 Horsemen comes to mind, Noth to some extent, Patchwerk). Right now we have a shaman who has been a good sport about respecing from night to night based on encounters, but I'm loathe to ask him to reglyph every night too.
Run 2 healers for everything through to Sapp, then either feed a holy priest an innervate, or get a 3rd healer for Sapp+KT. You don't specifically "need" them, but it does make life simpler, and there's usually a spare hybrid lying around.
We typically just have our OT (druid or paladin) put on healing gear for Sapp, then back to prot for KT; you don't need 3 healers for 10-man 4H. If you do, rework your healing assignments, or rework your dps assignments. The only situation I can see where you might need a 3rd healer is if you somehow can't kill Thane in a single bloodlust (i.e. before the 5th mark). In that case, you're going to have to be swapping back and forth between Rivendare and Thane, and that means you probably need another healer body.
Any reasonably competent paladin or priest can keep him/herself + a warlock/DK/hunter tank alive at the back with Blammo & Zeliak.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
KT's frostbolt is now partially resistable. If you're having severe healer mana problems and only 2 healers, 3 piece FrR on the MT and no interrupts is a good way to punch a hole through the mountain rather than going around it.
That's for 10-man, for 25-man the bolts hit relatively harder compared to his melee and FrR makes healing either about equal.
Are you guys running 10 man Naxx with 2 healers or 3? There are some fights we've done where the third healer is just twiddling their thumbs (Razuvious, Faerlina, Heigen, Loatheb, Gothik) and there are other fights where positioning or throughput requirements seems to mandate 3 healers (4 Horsemen comes to mind, Noth to some extent, Patchwerk). Right now we have a shaman who has been a good sport about respecing from night to night based on encounters, but I'm loathe to ask him to reglyph every night too.
We had our first wander through Naxx10 last night. All we had time for was Razuvious, since we were mostly brushing the rust off our raiding skills, but we tried 2-healering it and the understudies just weren't surviving long enough. We finally killed him when our friendly boomkin stepped in to throw some HoTs around. I don't know if it was just healer throughput or what, since our two healers are fresh 80s who haven't had much time to hit up heroics for gear, so that might make a difference.
you don't need 3 healers for 10-man 4H. If you do, rework your healing assignments, or rework your dps assignments. The only situation I can see where you might need a 3rd healer is if you somehow can't kill Thane in a single bloodlust (i.e. before the 5th mark). In that case, you're going to have to be swapping back and forth between Rivendare and Thane, and that means you probably need another healer body.
We've only done it once, but I don't think we have the dps to do what you're suggesting. You put one healer on the near side of the room and he stays on the Thane Tank the whole time? Does that mean you put all your DPS on Thane and ignore Baron to start?
Originally Posted by thedopefishlives
We had our first wander through Naxx10 last night. All we had time for was Razuvious, since we were mostly brushing the rust off our raiding skills, but we tried 2-healering it and the understudies just weren't surviving long enough. We finally killed him when our friendly boomkin stepped in to throw some HoTs around. I don't know if it was just healer throughput or what, since our two healers are fresh 80s who haven't had much time to hit up heroics for gear, so that might make a difference.
Are your controllers releasing the understudies to heal them back up to full? As long as they're keeping up their shield wall ability and taunting accordingly, the healing is really easy. One trick some groups use is to all stack on top of Razuvious as his Jagged Knife ability has a minimum 5-yard range (and supposedly he will never do it on the controllers). I haven't tried that one, but it might make the healing even easier.
12/01/08, 11:29 PM
.
