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Old 09/06/08, 12:19 PM   #51
Valerian
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Blackhand
Originally Posted by KamPa View Post
Isn't T6 146-154? Plus, those are 10 man drops, so you could add 15? or so levels for 25 man version, seems like a much larger jump than in TBC. Especially if we assume that it is properly itemized, which wasn't that obvious in T4.
The thing is, if you didn't raid pre-BC the jumps were quite large. Nowadays there's badge/arena gear that would make the jump less noticeable. When BC came out Blizz didn't really care, it seemed, that a small % of people would not find huge uypgrades in the raids. Now though, if the upgrades were marginal, there would be a much higher % of people who would "notice" due to the prevalence of badge and arena gear.

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Old 09/06/08, 1:31 PM   #52
Falk
Soda Popinski
 
Falk
Night Elf Druid
 
No WoW Account
Speaking of which, I'm hoping that any retroactive changes they plan to make to current gear lv70, they do it soon, just so it's clear where things ultimately stand.

Plate tank gear, feral gear, T6 (...and possibly T4/T5) set bonuses, I'm looking at you.

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Old 09/06/08, 2:12 PM   #53
Buiden
Great Tiger
 
Worgen Druid
 
Dragonblight
Originally Posted by wastedyouth View Post
Expect the 4hm to be an kara style opera event where you get two of the horseman instead of the four in the 10man
Oh... you get all 4 horsemen still.. Only got 2 runs on them last night since it was 3am but we'll kill em this afternoon no doubt.

Oh and no tokens at all from spider wing or razuvious/gothik. I can only assume 4horsemen will drop one but who knows!

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Old 09/06/08, 2:43 PM   #54
PsiVen
Don Flamenco
 
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Dwarf Paladin
 
Kilrogg
Originally Posted by Falk View Post
Speaking of which, I'm hoping that any retroactive changes they plan to make to current gear lv70, they do it soon, just so it's clear where things ultimately stand.

Plate tank gear, feral gear, T6 (...and possibly T4/T5) set bonuses, I'm looking at you.
They have reitemized the plate at least, haven't seen the other gear. Paladin tanking gear has had every bit of Int and SP removed and poured into Strength, while Warrior gear has lost a bit of other stats to go into Strength.

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Old 09/06/08, 4:31 PM   #55
Spiry
Piston Honda
 
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Draenei Priest
 
<TDM>
Stormscale (EU)
From watching Marix's live stream (Thanks!), it seems that in the 10 man version, on the pull, each horseman runs to his (her) respective corner and (possibly, it's quite hard to tell with the lag) stays there until...something happens, they are currently wiping a lot.

GL guys!

Originally Posted by Ulthwithian View Post
Paladins do have an ability to heal multiple people at once. It's called Divine Storm. ><

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Old 09/06/08, 5:24 PM   #56
Seratha
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Priest
 
Kirin Tor
Something to note about most of the items listed so far is that they seem to be using a new formula to calculate epic item levels. If you take Demise, its listed item level is 200, but if you calculate its item level based on the old formula, it comes out to an item level of 228. The other items I checked all seem to fall somewhere between 220-230 in item level.

In contrast, The Jawbone, comes out to an item level of 253.

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Old 09/06/08, 5:29 PM   #57
Verimon
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Bronze Dragonflight (EU)
That's how I perceived it as well. On top, it appears they will target the closest person to them making for smooth rotations.

From what I've seen so far on the worldofraids.com stream the encounter seems to not have changed that much except for the stationary nature of the horsemen. There are still void zones, stacking marks and they seem to have retained their abilities as well.

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Old 09/06/08, 5:33 PM   #58
glowacks
Piston Honda
 
Troll Shaman
 
Ravencrest
Originally Posted by Roywyn View Post
The quality of an item mostly depends on the amount of effective DPS stats and the amount of budget lost to dump stats (sta/int/spi for me). Item level comes second in my opinion.

The 3 Sunwell T6 pieces (at least for my class) are way better for DPS than the Naxxramas pieces.
Take the 4T6 set bonus and the new gear gets curbstomped by the old gear.
I'm not sure whether you've actually attempted the raids or not, so this is at once a question to mages who've actually raided as well as those who have yet to do so.

Is there not far more focus on mana pool & regen due to the increased availability of it and the increased mana cost of spells? It could very well be that the new loot has slightly better DPS stats, but if you're always running OOM you'd rather have more int and spirit. Back in MC we'd rarely have a full raid and fights like Garr and Golemagg were incredibly long to the point that I'd stack as much regen as I could - and I often got innervates! So while gear with lower int/spirit might work for heroics where the fights only last a few minutes, can you really sustain yourself for 5 or more minutes?

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Old 09/06/08, 6:04 PM   #59
wastedyouth
Glass Joe
 
Human Hunter
 
Shadowmoon (EU)
Originally Posted by Spiry View Post
From watching Marix's live stream (Thanks!), it seems that in the 10 man version, on the pull, each horseman runs to his (her) respective corner and (possibly, it's quite hard to tell with the lag) stays there until...something happens, they are currently wiping a lot.

GL guys!
That's correct and if they arnt attacked they do a ranged aoe attack on the raid

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Old 09/06/08, 6:48 PM   #60
Axl_Stukov
Piston Honda
 
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Night Elf Warrior
 
Winterhoof
Well watched the horsemen die on one of the streams, they drop the chest token and a 2 handed sword, couldn't read stats on it, Fury warrior was tanking with a DK and Feral for Thane and Rivendare, couldn't see how Lady and Zeliek were tanked for the first half but they were spaming a 1.5k-2kish Shadow Bolt and "Holy Evil" on a 1 second cast.

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Old 09/07/08, 12:30 AM   #61
Zaroua
Don Flamenco
 
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Dwarf Paladin
 
Sen'jin
Army of the Dead and tauntable bosses are a joke. Enraged Maex spent 2 of her frenzied webs killing ghouls. Same with Grand Widow and Razuvious when we screwed up the MC.

Theorycrafting procedures per role:
DPS = Theory -> Spreadsheet -> Practice
Healing = Theory -> Practice -> Logs
Tanking = Theory -> Theory -> Theory

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Old 09/07/08, 12:34 AM   #62
Axanor
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Tauren Druid
 
Area 52
Hopefully Maexxna/Grand Widow being tauntable is a mistake.

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Old 09/07/08, 1:37 AM   #63
Ashen
Great Tiger
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Firetree
Originally Posted by Axanor View Post
Hopefully Maexxna/Grand Widow being tauntable is a mistake.
I would imagine so, since the major challenge of the fights would thereby be trivialized. I know that Blizzard wants this to be an entry raid dungeon, but I imagine they would make it more user friendly through adjustments to damage.

Originally Posted by Caniki View Post
Hey guys, I heard that Blizzard puts out these things called "patches" that contain "content"
Originally Posted by Darkside View Post
Yeah but it hasn't happened since Ulduar.

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Old 09/07/08, 3:20 AM   #64
Xav
Bald Bull
 
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Worgen Warrior
 
Sen'jin
Fully cleared the 10 and 25 man last night/today, 25 man was a joint raid of Premonition and Vis Maior. Some bosses are very very well tuned in the 25 man, others not so much. Going to have a full review up in the blizzard feedback thread. Gothik is pretty much perfectly tuned and was very difficult, Sapphiron was decent, and K'T is the same minus no Detonate Mana and no mind control. Beyond those 3, I expect the rest of the bosses will be tuned up a few notches.

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Old 09/07/08, 4:24 AM   #65
Vasala
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Baelgun
Originally Posted by Xaviera View Post
Fully cleared the 10 and 25 man last night/today, 25 man was a joint raid of Premonition and Vis Maior. Some bosses are very very well tuned in the 25 man, others not so much. Going to have a full review up in the blizzard feedback thread. Gothik is pretty much perfectly tuned and was very difficult, Sapphiron was decent, and K'T is the same minus no Detonate Mana and no mind control. Beyond those 3, I expect the rest of the bosses will be tuned up a few notches.
Though since this is supposed to be the entry level raid instance should it not be easy for a guild that has cleared Sunwell? I would expect that the true challenge for those of us that have killed any Sunwell bosses will be in later zones and not the first one in Wrath. What I personally don't want to see is for Naxxramas to be tuned high enough to stop the guilds that currently can only do Kara / ZA as those players also need things to do at level 80.

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Old 09/07/08, 4:55 AM   #66
Vihermaali
Piston Honda
 
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Troll Death Knight
 
Magtheridon (EU)
Did you notice how they cleared all bosses in both instances during 1 raid day? Saying something is difficult does not mean you have to wipe on it all day. Some people think "difficult" means "borderline impossible" (=you wipe on a boss for several months before killing), and for others (like me) "difficult" means "I don't have time to alt+tab between casts" (=if I/someone makes a mistake, it's likely a wipe OR makes things much harder). Not the same thing!

After all the experience that Sunwell/40-man Naxx raiders have had in past, it's unlikely that same mechanics are going to wipe them over and over again, but it's very nice if bosses make you try hard!

Last edited by Vihermaali : 09/07/08 at 5:01 AM.

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Old 09/07/08, 6:36 AM   #67
wastedyouth
Glass Joe
 
Human Hunter
 
Shadowmoon (EU)
Originally Posted by Axl_Stukov View Post
Well watched the horsemen die on one of the streams, they drop the chest token and a 2 handed sword, couldn't read stats on it, Fury warrior was tanking with a DK and Feral for Thane and Rivendare, couldn't see how Lady and Zeliek were tanked for the first half but they were spaming a 1.5k-2kish Shadow Bolt and "Holy Evil" on a 1 second cast.
lady and zeliek both are caster's and as such you dont have to taunt them, the basic's are the cloest player to them get's agro. Lady fire's shadowbolt's and spawn's void zone's, zeliek does holy damage as you mentioned. both have mark's which last 25 seconds which are refreshed, stack when reapplied.

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Old 09/07/08, 6:59 AM   #68
Vallkor
King Hippo
 
Vallkr
Night Elf Hunter
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Vasala View Post
Though since this is supposed to be the entry level raid instance should it not be easy for a guild that has cleared Sunwell? I would expect that the true challenge for those of us that have killed any Sunwell bosses will be in later zones and not the first one in Wrath. What I personally don't want to see is for Naxxramas to be tuned high enough to stop the guilds that currently can only do Kara / ZA as those players also need things to do at level 80.
Taking that into account, yes, even still, there are some bosses that could use a slight buff in both versions. On the contrary, I'm of the opinion that there are even some that could use a slight nerf. I'm all for a challenge, but to be realistic and take into account who they are aiming these instances at, there are a few kinks they still need to iron out.

Even still, I think it would be safe to say that about 80% of both of them have been adjusted quite well to make the 10/25 format, which is, and will be, a big relief to many players after the fiasco that was Gruul/Magtheridon/etc. on the 25 man level.

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Old 09/07/08, 7:42 AM   #69
Razr
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Tarren Mill (EU)
Here is the feedback of Xav in the beta offical forums for anyone that missed it :

"Naxxramas 25 man

Premonition and Vis Maior joint raid, everyone at least fully sunwell geared, many people with gear already from the 10-man Naxx, heroics, crafted, or level 80 five mans/heroics. All tanks were crit immune.

Standard raid comp was

1 Prot warrior
1-2 Fury warriors
1 Ret paladin
0-1 Prot paladin
1-2 Holy paladin
2-3 Resto shaman
0-1 Enhance shaman
1 Elemental shaman
1 Feral druid
1 Resto druid
2 Holy priest
1 Shadow priest
1 Unholy DK
1-2 Blood DK
0-1 Frost DK
1 Frost Mage
2 Arcane Mage
1 Mutilate Rogue
2 Survival hunters
1 BM hunter
2 Destro Warlocks
0-1 Affliction Warlock

Spider Wing

Anub'rhekan

Easy, Locust Swarm even functioning? Didn't notice taking 'magical' damage in my blizzard scrolling combat text the one time I got several stacks of it. (Ground spike/impale thing shot me in the air right before he started casting it, so I wasn't able to start moving until it was basically mid cast)

Grand Widow Faerlina

Easy, everything seems to work as intended in the fight, pretty much the same as the 60 version with the mind controls, RoF, poison, and so forth. Didn't notice nearly as much raid damage as I was accustomed to seeing at level 60, however.

Maexxna

Easy, we stopped dps at 32%, waited for a web spray, and then used hero. Burned her down and used timers to live through the enrage, not sure if I would have even died though even if shield wall wasn't up. Didn't seem like a threat at all, to anyone, in the whole fight.

Spider wing trash:

Very easy, can pretty much group up everything and AOE it down. We pulled three of the Cultist packs in Faerlina's room and aoed it all down together without any deaths. However, that is considerably better than how tedious Faerlina trash was in Naxx 1.0 @ 60.


Plague Wing

Noth the Plaguebringer

Easy, was not doing blinks in the first ground phase at all, so it was simply a tank and spank. The curse is applying to so few people that it's a non-factor in the fight. The add phase where he goes up on the balcony is easy as well, we simply offtanked all the adds from phase 1, then aoe'd them in addition to the waves coming in during phase 2. His secound ground phase he finally started blinking, but only got one off before dying.

Heigan the Unclean

Easy, but mostly because his dance was slowed down so much! There's no more teleportation, which is understandable for the 10 man, but in the 25 man it's kind of depressing. I think you should still be teleported even in the 25 man now, it's not hard or anything, it just adds something different to the fight now and then for some people. As long as you fixed the unavoidable deaths with being ported right before a dance phase from Naxx 1.0

Loatheb

Very easy, health seems far too low, I think we ate two or three impending dooms total? New mechanic is fine, simplifies things/learning. It should probably be a bit more dangerous for the raid when he dies rather than everyone completely healthy, in my opinion anyway.

Plague wing trash:

The Gargoyles and all the rest of the pre-Noth trash is fine. The old gauntlet, now the non-respawning trash, is fine, but pointlessly easy. And what's with the jumping bats? The bats... jump on you. I don't understand that.


Abomination Wing

Patchwerk

Ridiculously undertuned! I think we killed him with like over a minute left on the timer, but I dont have an exact time because the screenshot I took was taken with my timer still running. I remember saying on vent, "we're way way ahead" sometime during the fight, knowing it was a 5 minute enrage. Damage to the main tank is fine - could be upped a little bit, and damage from Hateful Strike seems WAY too low. It wasn't a rollercoaster ride like it was @ 60, I don't think hatefuls even brought them below 50% hp.

Grobbulus

Not bad at all. Same exact concepts, but just health values/damage tuned up. Sometimes when he turns to face the raid to inject someone, he does the Slime Stream at the same time and multiple slimes will spawn, this seemed completely unavoidable due to the timing of it. Ranged were on spawns and melee stuck on the boss, seems like it will be a good fight for a lesser geared raid.

Gluth

Bugged. After decimate, the zombie chow are NOT aggroed on Gluth and continue to attack the kiters, the healers, or the DPS aoe'ing them down. Thus, our strat was to AoE Taunt/earth elemental, and then we decided to simply just continue to kite them after decimate since they were not converging on Gluth. He is not tauntable, and the Mortal Wound he applies does not function. I would solo tank him, get to a 10 stack, and then it would wear off. If the mortal wound is fixed and he remains untauntable, due to there being no fear mechanic this could be quite an interesting fight. Not sure how to swap aggro reliably without a fear, in sufficient time, to not die to mortal wound. Might end up doing "clever" things like using timers + intervene shield wall effect + trinkets / tricks to live through a high stack of mortal wound, waiting for it to tick off. (Doesn't refresh at 10stack)

Thaddius

Phase 1 change is nice, the way you fly directly to the other tank without the actual positioning difficulties of Naxx 1.0. Phase 2 is identical and I don't know how far ahead we were because I don't know what the enrage is, however, we had like 3 deaths and we were fine.


Abomination Wing trash:

The reduction of trash before Patchwerk is nice, but I think the lightning totems should inflict more pain to encourage people to actually kill them rather than ignore them!

Death Knight Wing


Instructor Razuvious

Returning to the mind control strategy is appreciated. The adds, however, have a mind of their own. Our first strategy was just me tanking all of the adds in a spot that the priests can MC them easily at, but they would frequently just run away from me and go to healers. (And it was *NOT* due to them pulling aggro). Frequently after taunting it back, off a healer, and slamming a HUGE amount of threat into it seconds after the taunt, it would immediately run back to the healer. This ended up wiping us. Our next attempt we used 4 tanks, each tank assigned to one of the adds, and we baby sat our own adds. It worked fine and aggro was not squirrely at all this way - not sure why, but yeah.

Gothik the Harvester

Hard. A true challenge, this was just like the 60 version for the most part. We wiped many times, even after knowing what to do. We were using 3 shackles and 3 sheeps, and frost novas + 2 tanks on each side to control all adds. All Rider volleys were interrupted, and damage was still rough at times due to loose adds and being overran. I can see this easily being very, very difficult for new guilds to the zone seeing it for their first time.

4 Horsemen

Easy. Identical to the 10 man version, with numbers just tuned a bit higher. I was looking forward to mechanics being changed in some way from the 10 man to force more tanks into the fight, or more diverse rotations - right now it was just a 'front 2' swap with tanks meeting in the middle and taunting, then going to the other side with all of their healers/dps. Also, rogues can cloak the marks, and you can resist the marks, which makes it even easier. This should be scaled up considerably and more things added, if it's meant to be more difficult than Gothik.

Death Knight wing trash:

Tons of trash. Trash is annoying, too, with the Death Knight whatevers that do the whirlwind. Pats that patrol very very long distances and can sync up and travel together in huge deathpacks. (The invisible spectre pats would sync up with a death knight pack and cause a huge pull). Trash wont be bad if the pats were in smaller areas and easier to discern where they travel from, right now it's easy to get big chain pulls due to far aggro ranges.


Sapphiron

Pretty significant raid healing required. Sapphiron was shooting 2 Frostbolts (turning into iceblocks) for several air phases, forcing us to all be on one side (to survive reliably, anyway). Not seeing Sapphiron's cast bar/channel bar for Ice Blast or whatever it is called is awkward, but not a big deal. On later air phases (when she got lower health), she started shooting multiple frostbolts - I think we got 3, and then maybe 4? Nicely tuned, hits very hard, stresses healers, etc.

Kel'Thuzad

Phase 1 seems bugged, the adds are travelling veryveryvery slow, after doing the 10 man, which had them move fast and appropriately, the 25 man having them move literally at a snails pace is dumb. Fix their speed, make them move faster.

Phase 2 is ok, no idea why you don't add more abilities in though. It's a replica of the 10 man. Should put Detonate Mana back in, and maybe the Mind Control too - but have it not mind control anyone currently tanking a mob. Perhaps disable the mind control once 40% hits, that way you wont have to deal with mind control on add tanks, which seems appropriate for the difficulty level intended. You just need to spice this up a bit because it's a snore right now, lots of health, long fight, for most of the raid it is nothing more than press your button and move if a void zone is on you. However, making the Frostbolt still threatening enough to force an interrupt rotation is nice. It hit me for 16,666 - the one I got hit by, so you definitely need a strict solid rotation for that.

The soft enrage seems to be on the Guardians of Icecrown, as they hit harder and harder, (Their self buff now auto stacks based on time rather than deaths) causing your OT's to eventually probably die.

Overall: I like it, but it was easy, probably due to our experience/gear level. However, some of it is very obviously too easy and needs to be buffed. A few changes here and there and it'll be a great entry level zone with appropriate difficulty scaling as you work through the 15 bosses.

Thanks Blizzard "

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Old 09/07/08, 11:51 AM   #70
Luc
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Shaman
 
Blackrock
Originally Posted by nataku View Post
I just remember Patchwerk as being the fight I spammed the same rank of GHeal the entire fight on the same target. Sure there was some math involved in putting enough healing on each of the tanks prior to the fight, but that's the end of the actual complexity. Execution for me was simply pressing the GHeal2 hot key continuously, hitting mana consumables on cooldowns to sustain it.
Yeah I don't really remember any complex healing involved in Patchwrek, all I remember is spam FoL high rank all the time on your tank.. (snip)
It was very different for our (horde) healers. We were also on a 400ms Australian ping so cancelling heals or trying to reactive heal in any way was not possible. At about the 40% mark, our single target healers started to run out of mana and were waiting on pot cool downs, with the best geared of the healers mabey reaching the 10-20% mark. It was always a roll of the dice in the last 30% of the fight, I don't remember a single fight where we lasted without a tank death.
Our first 'legit' kill (a few weeks after we used the wrath 8 piece set bonus) I was the best geared of the tanks and so set as one of the HS tanks, the other two had died by about 19% and with shield wall, last stand, and a roulette wheel I lasted until 6%. This was just enough when combined with fast reacting rogues hitting their evades as he turned on each of them.
The fight never really got any easier for us, but we stopped raiding before the 2.0 changes, that might have made a difference.

I would imagine the efficiency and speed of Paladin single target healing combined with Blessing of Wisdom, judgement of mana and Kings would have made jsut enough difference to turn it into a fairly safe repeatable process once the initial learning and gear check was reached. (We ran 17 healers 4 tanks and our DPS was always _just_ enough)

The spider wing Boss (pre 2.0) was certainly very challenging for our healers to perfect the Cures and Hot + Trinket timings, but was much more of a reliable kill after it was learned.
I used a few high Stam high NR pieces from my AQ set to get the poison portion of the damage into the 75% region without saccing more than a few hundred HP and always just saved Last stand and the Warrior HP trinket for the end of a web wrap. Once the wrap was over, we only had a few instant heals available over the fight, the others were all going to to take a second or two, so the instant the web dropped was when getting myself up from 3% health was most important.
The number of shaman NS heals horde had in that fight probably made up for the AC and HP Paladins gave the tank.

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Old 09/07/08, 12:27 PM   #71
Reinhars
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Mage
 
Kirin Tor (EU)
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
I agree. Kel'thuzad > Attumen was not quite so big a jump in ilvl as Kiljaeden > Naxx 10 appears to be.
25 and 10 man Naxx have the same gear at the moment.
What we see could either be 10 or 25 man gear, no ?

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Old 09/07/08, 1:03 PM   #72
Mikari
Banned
 
Moo
Dwarf Priest
 
Bloodhoof
Originally Posted by Reinhars View Post
25 and 10 man Naxx have the same gear at the moment.
What we see could either be 10 or 25 man gear, no ?
Current Naxx gear in both instances is the 10 man stuff, it's been stated that the 25 man loot will be in place in the next major beta patch.

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Old 09/07/08, 8:43 PM   #73
LiquidHAL
Piston Honda
 
Human Mage
 
Hyjal
Originally Posted by Mikari View Post
Current Naxx gear in both instances is the 10 man stuff, it's been stated that the 25 man loot will be in place in the next major beta patch.
Just a little corroboration, the placeholder names with "Naxx 10" are item level 200, same as all the drops seen. The placeholder-named 25-man item, "Naxxramas 25 Trash Loot 2H Mace", is item level 213 (incidentally the same ilevel as naxx10 Kel'thuzad drops).

This is all of course subject to change once they start dealing with balance/tuning issues. After all, it was some time after BC release that the item level of the entire karazhan loot table was modified, tweaking stats on every item.

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Old 09/08/08, 2:56 AM   #74
Jagiya
Don Flamenco
 
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Gnome Rogue
 
Blackrock
I just noticed that there are currently two completely different tokens dropping in the 10 man and 25 man versions of Naxxramas. For example:

Warrior, Hunter, Shaman (Breastplate of the Lost Protector - Naxx 25) | (Chestguard of the Lost Protector - Naxx 10)

Each token has a 10 man and a 25 man version of the same name.
Helm / Crown of the Lost XYZ
Chestguard / Breastplate of the Lost XYZ
Leggings / Legplates of the Lost XYZ
Mantle / Spaulders of the Lost XYZ
Gloves / Gauntlets of the Lost XYZ

It'll be interesting to see what differences (iLvl & stats) will exist between these token rewards when the vendors are implemented.

EDIT: Added in links
EDIT2: The reason I posted this is because as far as I knew, there were no Naxx 25 items available yet (with the exception of The Jawbone).

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Old 09/08/08, 4:45 AM   #75
Jaete
Bald Bull
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Auchindoun (EU)
As an aside, my old (alliance) guild never used a hunter on Anub, we used two tanks and a BoP instead. I didn't see it mentioned how he works in the new Naxx, does it still require hunter/paladin/whatever trickery or does he just slow down when casting so that you can outrun him on normal speed?

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