Was that ever confirmed, or was it just assumed that he/she meant increased TPS through higher DPS achieving the same thing?

MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Ghost: When does Warrior tanking get easier?

I've never been quite certain how that's meant to work with Righteous Fury. Talented on Live, Righteous Fury gives +90% threat from Holy Damage. On beta, Righteous Fury *untalented* gives +90% threat from holy damage. Since talented live = untalented beta (and there's no new +threat talent), where actually *is* this baking in?

Does Righteous Fury actually give more than the advertised +90%? If so, why doesn't it report that amount instead?

Do all of our abilities inherently do an undocumented +30% threat behind the scenes? If so, how does this not cause issues for retri?

On live, pure paladin threat abilities don't really exist; Avenger's Shield is the only move explicitly for tanks that's designed for threat (via holy damage, albeit only initial threat). This isn't true on beta, of course, thanks to Shield and Hammer, so this raises the question about whether all this bonus threat is baked into *those*, in which case are we going to *have* to get our 51-pointer when 3.0 comes out to compete on threat?

So many questions right now, unfortunately.

The idea of tanking threat:
1) BoS removed and included into "tanking forms".
2) All +threat talents removed/reworked and effects included into "tanking forms".
3) DPS of all tanks increased to around 80% of "real" dps class.
4) Gear changed to support above - mitigation lost in favor of offensive stats.
5) Crushing blows moved from +3 to +4 mobs basically removing it from end-game PvE. Effects like sunwell radiance removed too. Boss damage will be also lowered to compensate etc.

So now every tank (even off spec) will have effects that currently require BoS on others and protection +threat talents. Righteous Fury will most likely act same way as Defensive Stance or Bear Form - give passive 175% threat or something like that. Additionally prot gear/skills/talents will offer more TPS. We are going from "fortress" avoidance tank to balanced tank that will equally go for mitigation and TPS in same one set of gear.

Notice that tooltips and/or mechanics can be not updated on beta yet. They will most likely fix this soon™ when they start balancing numbers (TPS, DPS, HPS). Right now they are balancing talents - so that all of them have proper "budget". If with those talents your DPS/HPS/TPS will be too low/high they will fix that with abilities itself. This will be done next weeks before 3.0 go live and then eventually tweaked between 3.0 and wotlk (and obviously further).

Now tanks are easy pie - around same TPS and mitigation is needed. Healers are little more tricky but should be more or less fine. However what with DPS? They cannot do same damage because of additional utility etc. This will be problematic I suppose.

3.0 is the biggest change WoW have ever seen and I will risk saying that it will be best change WoW ever seen. Some people of course will QQ about "making classes all the same" or "dumbing game down" but that is how humans react on big changes when they feel unsafe.

The tanks bumped up damage will help somewhat along with the incoming changes with SW Radiance. For older content it will be interesting especially considering the NYI talents/glyphs whatever.

On the topic of fearing the unknown that you emphasized on, many of us doesnt fear the "change" itself but rather the incredibile effort it needs and the ability to deliver it. From recent memory the only comparable event is the SW:Galaxies expansion release, which had the same intentions of simplifying the game and yet ended up with a disaster that cratered it HARD.

Fingers crossed for Blizz though.

Oh and if anyone is not familiar with it here is some background on the "comparable event" In Which I try to speak honestly about history | rubenfield.com

The factor that your missing is the following: Tsarin is my paladin on main his spell damage is 410. Converting him straight to the beta server in the exact same gear his spell damage went up to over 800. This increase made my ability to tank absolutely stupid. I started running about testing the various things I could take without issue.

On Ata'mal terrace in his current gear he can easily solo 20 of the orcs plus two of the elites. For most of this I couldn't spend mana fast enough to actually loose mana from my bars. This alone will keep a paladin's threat way up there.

I have to believe that anyone saying "tanks won't be able to hold aggro" either hasn't raided as one or hasn't really been paying attention for the last few months of raiding.

As a warrior tank for my guild I'm looking at the new talents and laughing because I know I will likely be able to use a rotation that might involve throwing my keyboard down a flight of stairs and STILL hold aggro. Increasing the modifiers, making buffs raidwide and increasing my own personal damage is going to put threat generation into the laughable range. Sure they will likely design encounters around this (with aggro drops, adds, etc) but on single targets no one will have issues.

All tanking classes will benefit IMMENSELY from the changes being made. Lets not forget, part of the reason for all these changes was because they want to convince Joe-fury-warrior that "tank" isn't a 4-letter word...errrrr... or at least a bad one. People have long complained about lack of tanks and this is a move to try to allieviate some of that pressure.

I think the issue that he was pointing out is that Paladin TPS is balanced around our new ability Shield of the Righteous (holy shield slam batman!). However, we can't train SotR until level 75, kinda screwing over pallys during the break between 3.0 and Wrath.

I'm hoping to collect some guildies on the PTR tonight and run some tests on aggro sans SotR. Nevertheless, it would be *really* nice if we could get it trainable at or before 70.

(Of course, what I'm really looking forward to is pulling the opera audience in Kara with instant Holy Wrath. The mind boggles.)

I'm a little short of exalted on hydraxian, but it didn't check the MC achievement for me. Funny considering I still have my hand of rag on my person (and achievement to go with it.) Didn't get the BWL achievement either, but did get the AQ40. I think if you cleared either of those things somewhat recently then you'll get the achievement. I ran AQ40 fairly recently on live before copy, but haven't been to BWL or MC in more than 2 years.

All mounts are on gcd which is supremely annoying.

What mod is that?

I never got a hand of rag or other quest item off Rag but I do have the achievement for clearing MC. I think it might have something to do with my Tier 2 Legs in my bank.

It's quests AND items, quests are marked off forever, items are only if you have the item in your bank. If you have an item off of Ragnaros, you get the achievement, if you don't have an item from Onyxia, yet you've turned in the Onyxia head, you get the achievement. I still have items in my bank from Onyxia, Ragnaros, Nefarian, and C'Thun, thus I have all of those achievements in Beta, as well as clearing ZG since I turned in his heart for the trinket.

It's probably both. I have never done any quest for Ragnaros but I have my Tier 2 leggings in the bank and I have been given an achievement for the kill. I believe it was Tigole who stated that they would validate kills retroactively any way they could. This would be either through quests (which are trackable) or through existing loot that you happened to keep.

Well I guess that blows that theory...

I wonder if they are only correlating items that are directly on a bosses loot table... which would explain why someone who has the hammer would not get credit since it does not drop directly from him.

I know they are using quests as one factor because all of the old world kills I have credit for can be traced to a quest (i sharded all of my MC gear in a regrettable bank cleaning incident a while back and do not have the MC achievment on the PTR).

The Hand of Rag might as well drop right off Rag though, since you need to get [Eye of Sulfuras] off Rag in order to make it. I'll check when I get home to see whether I have the MC achievement done.

The achievement system is far from complete, my Warrior alt has a [Zin'rokh, Destroyer of Worlds] and doesn't have credit for a Hakkar kill. Best thing to do is probably to report specific boss drops as bugs for the achievement as posts to the beta forums for specific items have been incorporated into the achievement check.

Thunderfury is its own achievement, which is easily tracked as it is an actual quest that you have to complete to obtain the item.

Sigh. What he means is that in order to complete a Thunderfury you have to have killed Ragnaros to get the [Essence of the Firelord] quest item.

Oh shit, yeah. It's been so long since I did it I'd forgotten about that.

A month after TBC was released, my account was hacked and I lost every item I owned pre-BC; so there's no traces of MC, BWL, AQ, Naxx, etc left on my account. Yet, I have the MC/BWL Achievements. I'm exalted with the Hydraxian Waterlords, but I never participated in any Quests relevant to Ragnaros. So the only link that would have connected me to Ragnaros would have been the [Perdition's Blade] or [Bloodfang Pants] - both of which were sharded by the hacker. I looted Nefarian's Head and handed it in; which would explain the BWL achievement. However, I also looted the [Deathdealer's Vest] token from C'thun and handed that in. (It was a quest, remember..) Yet for some reason, AQ40 is not listed as cleared on my Achievements panel. I'm really confused as to why C'thun isn't registered, but Ragnaros is.

I assumed Hakkar would be linked to his heart; and the associated trinket quest. Haven't checked if this one is crossed off... I'll have a look when I get home from work.

edit: I don't think I have [Eternal Quintessence] in my bank, either.

Item tracking is for final bosses of 25 man instances or higher. Quest tracking is for everything all the way down to 5 mans. Some things that aren't direct drops like Thunderfury they probably need to be reminded of, because they no doubt enabled item tracking just by dumping the full drop list into a database. Which would mean you'd get credit if you still had [Eye of Sulfuras] laying around, but they'll need to manually add [Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros], which they probably will if reminded.