Patch 3.02 Discussion - Page 9

Ngita · 10/02/08, 1:30 AM

Originally Posted by Gink

Does anyone know if Badges are made BoE in this patch by the way? I seem to remember reading something about it a while back, but can't find it now.

Badges being BoE was a bug and quickly acknowledged as such.

Jagiya · 10/02/08, 1:42 AM

Considering the slot into the Tokens Panel, there isn't really an opportunity for them to be traded/mailed anyway.

Prinsesa · 10/02/08, 2:53 AM

Originally Posted by Gink

Does anyone know if Badges are made BoE in this patch by the way? I seem to remember reading something about it a while back, but can't find it now.

They were never made BOE. It was simply a display bug that removed the "Binds-on-pickup" text from the item's tooltip. You still couldn't trade them (only place them in the "Will not be Traded" box), mail them or pass them to other people.

Blutelf · 10/02/08, 3:47 AM

Originally Posted by draghkar

It's just me or they removed 1 glyph, unlocked only at 80 now? I'm pretty sure before last build al 3 major were available.

Yes, one of them is now available at 80.

Cadfael · 10/02/08, 7:18 AM

Originally Posted by Sebalot

If patch is released the 14th, basically feature freeze for the patch will be next week?

Feature freeze, in a MMO ?

Blizzard in the past has often added stuff into a new live build that was not available for public testing in the preceeding test phase so you can't use any date or currently testable feature level and expect exactly that for the next patch.

For example, I have a beta key so I cannot use the current PTR 3.0 build, but I am not aware that the event for the WotlK "opening" is currently testable but we can be very sure that it will be in the 3.0.2 patch.

Douglas · 10/02/08, 8:25 AM

Originally Posted by draghkar

It's just me or they removed 1 glyph, unlocked only at 80 now? I'm pretty sure before last build al 3 major were available.

Correct. A major glyph unlocks at 80, and a minor unlocks at 70, so at 69 you only have four slots total.

Redcape · 10/02/08, 10:21 AM

One huge thing for 3.0 is the very recent change to JoW. The new version of JoW has a 4 second raid wide cooldown. Essentially this means that each dpser is going to get a tick every minute or so instead of every 4-6 seconds.

I don't know if this is a bug or not, but it seems like it might be an attempt to make paladins less mandatory in 10 mans in particular. JoW was a really massive mana regen increase and since no one can duplicate it it would suggest that running a tightly tuned 10 man without a pally would be really awful.

This could easily be a big reason why the TBC mobs have had their hp slashed by 30% in raids. I don't see it being very likely that mana based dps could actually sustain their rotations for a full fight with potions, shadow priests and JoW all being massively reduced in mana return.

This actually ends up not affecting ret paladins much since their mana return is fine without JoW (and when you have next to no Int on gear JoW isn't that great anyhow) but I suspect it will be absolutely brutal on nukers and hunters. It will have some effect on Prot pallies, but assuming the current version of Blessing of Sanctuary makes it live they should have enough mana to do things as long as they are getting hit. If they aren't their threat/dps will be very subpar.

Douglas · 10/02/08, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by Redcape

I don't know if this is a bug or not, but it seems like it might be an attempt to make paladins less mandatory in 10 mans in particular. JoW was a really massive mana regen increase and since no one can duplicate it it would suggest that running a tightly tuned 10 man without a pally would be really awful.

This is very interesting, and I believe I approve, even though my own tank is a prot paladin.

As most of us know, shadow priest mana regen has been given out to three specs (retadin, survival hunter, shadowpriest). That should be the main mana battery effect in any group. JoW should not overshadow it, and under some circumstances it might have. This change makes JoW decent for soloing, good for duoing, decent in a 5-man... it gives utility in inverse proportion to the size of your group. Which means that as it becomes more reasonable to require one of the mana-battery classes, it becomes more important to have one of them.

Another result is, my prot paladin is no longer going to feel he needs to use JoW, and that's very liberating. I may still use it soloing, but I'm not likely to use it in raids. (On live, I tend to use it in content I overgear, so that our consumable costs go down.)

I really like this sort of design feature, like the druid bear form mitigation thing upside-down. This is some good stuff here, design-wise, and I hope Bliz keeps it up.

flyingtoastr · 10/02/08, 10:57 AM

JoW was only restoring 2% of total mana on a 4 second cooldown to begin with, it is flat out worse for almost any spec than every single other regen buff in the game. It wasn't inherently powerful to begin with.

But again, until they give Heroism to a second class there is no reason anyone else should be losing their unique utility.

EDIT: This post pretty much confirms that it is not intended.

• Adoriele · 10/02/08, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

JoW was only restoring 2% of total mana on a 4 second cooldown to begin with, it is flat out worse for almost any spec than every single other regen buff in the game. It wasn't inherently powerful to begin with.

But again, until they give Heroism to a second class there is no reason anyone else should be losing their unique utility.

EDIT: This post pretty much confirms that it is not intended.

Uhhh. Let's think about this for a second. 2% of Mana on a 4 second cooldown is.... Oh yeah. .5% of mana per second. Which is what the original Replenishment was, which got nerfed to half of its value because it made mana a non-issue for casters. Now, I realize that you're not actually going to get 2% every 4 seconds unless you happen to spam cast 2s spells, but you'd have to get a proc every >8 seconds for it to be worse than Replenishment, and there are very few raiding DPS spell which have a cast time anywhere near 4s.

In short, JoW is nowhere near the worst mana regen ability in the game. Not even close.

Caligula · 10/02/08, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

In short, JoW is nowhere near the worst mana regen ability in the game. Not even close.

Honestly, at least JoW doesn't require you cast 2 separate spells on your target, one that REDUCES your overall DPS (VT does, as of the latest beta build, less DPS than MF spam alone). Not only that, but now VT can't even be used with Flay to self-regen mana when low because the cost of VT is more than the total amount regenerated for the duration of the buff. On top of all that, to retain the replenishment debuff, Shadow Priests can no longer effectively dot multiple targets or AoE without further reducing their own DPS by adding a MB into their AoE rotation.

In short, if things stay the same, Shadow Priests will not be using VT at all, considering how detrimental it is to personal DPS, and how easy and beneficial it is for Surv Hunters or Retadins to maintain the buff.

Schniepel · 10/02/08, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by Caligula

In short, if things stay the same, Shadow Priests will not be using VT at all, considering how detrimental it is to personal DPS, and how easy and beneficial it is for Surv Hunters or Retadins to maintain the buff.

No quite, at least in case of hunters, because as things are right now Survival downright sucks in terms of dps in comparsion to Beast Mastery or Marksmanship. This coupled with the fact that Expose Weakness doesn't buff other players anymore will lead to not having raiding SV hunters at all.

flyingtoastr · 10/02/08, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

Uhhh. Let's think about this for a second. 2% of Mana on a 4 second cooldown is.... Oh yeah. .5% of mana per second. Which is what the original Replenishment was, which got nerfed to half of its value because it made mana a non-issue for casters. Now, I realize that you're not actually going to get 2% every 4 seconds unless you happen to spam cast 2s spells, but you'd have to get a proc every >8 seconds for it to be worse than Replenishment, and there are very few raiding DPS spell which have a cast time anywhere near 4s.

In short, JoW is nowhere near the worst mana regen ability in the game. Not even close.

It's not a 4 second cooldown. It's a lowest possible cooldown of 4 seconds.

For example, a Mage spamming Fireball with a 3 second cast has a 6 second cooldown. With 15000 mana that's only equal to 50 Mp5. Improved Blessing of Wisdom on the other hand is 109 Mp5, Improved Mana Spring is 106.25 Mp5, and Replenishment would be 187.5 Mp5.

A ret paladin doing a 6/10/10 rotation and a 3.5 speed weapon has an average cooldown of 4.5985 seconds. With his beasty 7600 mana pool he gets the equivalent of 33 Mp5 from JoW. Compare that to the other regens please (Replenishment for him is 95 Mp5).

The only classes that get close to that ideal 4 second time are Hunters and Enhancement Shamans.

Trust me, I know JoW really really well.

Caligula · 10/02/08, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Schniepel

No quite, at least in case of hunters, because as things are right now Survival downright sucks in terms of dps in comparsion to Beast Mastery or Marksmanship. This coupled with the fact that Expose Weakness doesn't buff other players anymore will lead to not having raiding SV hunters at all.

One of my guildies sat on a Heroic Dummy the other day for a couple hours with her Paladin testing out rotations and she said that with the new talents she didn't go OOM once during the entire time. I don't mean to turn the thread into a "who's got it bad now" weep fest, but I think we can agree that Ret Pallies are in a far better place regarding mana regeneration than pretty much every class out there, even with a screwy JoW.

• Adoriele · 10/02/08, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

It's not a 4 second cooldown. It's a lowest possible cooldown of 4 seconds.

For example, a Mage spamming Fireball with a 3 second cast has a 6 second cooldown. With 15000 mana that's only equal to 50 Mp5. Improved Blessing of Wisdom on the other hand is 109 Mp5, Improved Mana Spring is 106.25 Mp5, and Replenishment would be 187.5 Mp5.

A ret paladin doing a 6/10/10 rotation and a 3.5 speed weapon has an average cooldown of 4.5985 seconds. With his beasty 7600 mana pool he gets the equivalent of 33 Mp5 from JoW. Compare that to the other regens please (Replenishment for him is 95 Mp5).

Trust me, I know JoW really really well.

No, it's equal to 50 mana per second. 15000*.02/6*5 = 250 MP5. Amazingly, this number is greater than 187.5, Like I said, you would have to get a proc every 8 seconds in order to be the same value as Replenishment. If you have an 8 second cast, that's a problem, but again, spells like that do not exist in a raiding scenario. More likely, you have a cast time of ~4 seconds to worry about that which, even if it did exist, you will as likely as not get a proc every cast because of latency. With a 2s cast, you're going to hit procs on either every other, or every third cast, again with about the same frequency.

Please run the math.

flyingtoastr · 10/02/08, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

No, it's equal to 50 mana per second. 15000*.02/6*5 = 250 MP5. Amazingly, this number is greater than 187.5, Like I said, you would have to get a proc every 8 seconds in order to be the same value as Replenishment. If you have an 8 second cast, that's a problem, but again, spells like that do not exist in a raiding scenario. More likely, you have a cast time of ~4 seconds to worry about that which, even if it did exist, you will as likely as not get a proc every cast because of latency. With a 2s cast, you're going to hit procs on either every other, or every third cast, again with about the same frequency.

Please run the math.

Yeah, I messed up a little because it's damn early in the morning. Point remains, why does JoW need the nerfbat when there are still tons of equally or more powerful unique abilities out there? (Heroism, Wrath of Air, Battle Res, etc)

Gink · 10/02/08, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

Yeah, I messed up a little because it's damn early in the morning. Point remains, why does JoW need the nerfbat when there are still tons of equally or more powerful unique abilities out there? (Heroism, Wrath of Air, Battle Res, etc)

Paladins have a few more powerful unique abilities, Blessing of Protection, Lay on Hands, Blessing of Kings to name a few.

• Adoriele · 10/02/08, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

Yeah, I messed up a little because it's damn early in the morning. Point remains, why does JoW need the nerfbat when there are still tons of equally or more powerful unique abilities out there? (Heroism, Wrath of Air, Battle Res, etc)

Oh, I don't believe it need the nerfbat (well, maybe increase CD to 5 or 6 seconds). Yeah, it's potentially twice as powerful as Replenishment, but only for casters who can manage to get procs on cooldown all the time. It's active regen, which means you have to be casting in order to use it. if you're OoM, JoW doesn't help you (unless you're a dirty clothy). I'm fair certain that the current behavior is a bug. But for comparison's sake, here are the numbers for a T7-25 geared Moonkin:

JoW: 440 MP5
Moonkin Form: 392 MP5
Replenishment: 267 MP5
Intensity: 246 MP5
Dreamstate: 121 MP5
BoW: 109 MP5
Mana Spring: 106 MP5
Moonglow: 105 MP5
Omen of Clarity: 47 MP5

JoW's a good 50 MP5 better than the next-best mana regen, and 180 MP5 better than Replenishment, a 70% improvement. It's damn powerful, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it changed in some form.

Copernicus · 10/02/08, 12:36 PM

The nerf to raid mobs is official-

World of Warcraft (English) Forums -> Existing Raid Content Changes

Originally Posted by Blizzard

To coincide with the upcoming new talents and mechanic changes for classes in the next patch, we are making some adjustments in existing raid content to provide a smooth transition when the upcoming patch is released. The creatures and bosses in raid dungeons that were introduced in The Burning Crusade will have their health reduced, and most will have their standard melee damage output reduced as well, but their spell and ability damage are not being changed. These changes are being made in all raid dungeons from Karazhan to Sunwell Plateau as well as the outdoor encounters of Doom Lord Kazzak and Doomwalker. On top of this Illidan is also doing his part and will stop casting Shear on players.

Caligula · 10/02/08, 12:40 PM

A good move on their part, lest we see Sunwell Plateau as the new 10 man instance in the next expansion.

Malleus · 10/02/08, 1:57 PM

Originally Posted by Schniepel

No quite, at least in case of hunters, because as things are right now Survival downright sucks in terms of dps in comparsion to Beast Mastery or Marksmanship. This coupled with the fact that Expose Weakness doesn't buff other players anymore will lead to not having raiding SV hunters at all.

As things are right now where - live, PTR or beta? Our Survival Hunter is reporting from beta that her damage is matching that of BM Hunters.

Douglas · 10/02/08, 2:04 PM

Originally Posted by Malleus

Our Survival Hunter is reporting from beta that her damage is matching that of BM Hunters.

I suspected this. Any more info about this particular hunter? As I understand it, survival has historically (since patch 2.0 at the very least) been the most gear-dependent spec.

(Sorry, I'm not a great hunter theorycrafter. I play my hunter as a solo/farming alt, so I don't do a lot of work toward raid-level DPS on her.)

Daenerys · 10/02/08, 2:48 PM

Originally Posted by Malleus

As things are right now where - live, PTR or beta? Our Survival Hunter is reporting from beta that her damage is matching that of BM Hunters.

As of a couple weeks ago Beta testers were reporting that SV was competitive DPS. But after a nerf or two to Explosive Shot (and some other changes), BM is back on top in a big way (the current scaling of pet damage is pretty ridiculous). There is really no reason to bring a SV Hunter to a raid as it stands right now, though that doesn't mean some Hunters won't spec SV because it can be a fun spec. Guess it will depend on if you're raiding for progression or just for fun.

ildon · 10/02/08, 6:57 PM

Originally Posted by Daenerys

As of a couple weeks ago Beta testers were reporting that SV was competitive DPS. But after a nerf or two to Explosive Shot (and some other changes), BM is back on top in a big way (the current scaling of pet damage is pretty ridiculous). There is really no reason to bring a SV Hunter to a raid as it stands right now, though that doesn't mean some Hunters won't spec SV because it can be a fun spec. Guess it will depend on if you're raiding for progression or just for fun.

Or, more likely, there will be a series of nerfs/buffs until the specs are closer together.

funshinebear · 10/02/08, 7:39 PM

Has there been any more details about making the 60-70 leveling faster? I seem to recall some rumors awhile back that they were going to do something for 60-70 in 3.0 but can't find anything recent about this.