SimulationCraft Model Development - Page 12

dedmonwakeen · 03/09/09, 8:26 AM

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

I think he's referring to the math quoted here. The math in the original post has been shown not to accurately model certain types of talents and abilities, but a good point is certainly made - that the presence of percentage-based execute talents doesn't necessarily mean you should pop heroism towards the end of the fight.

The discussion seems to still be ongoing, but I think it would be very worthwhile to at least make the bloodlust timing configurable when optimal_raid=1.

EDIT: For what it's worth, rerunning Raid_T8.simcraft after having changed one of the shaman profiles to pop bloodlust at the start yields only about 450 RDPS less than the default run. That's a very tiny .28% difference, pretty much a confirmation for those arguing that it's a wash.

Interesting...... While popping cooldowns right away (which is what most simcraft AI do) guarantees that you maximize the number of times they come up, a fight with a reasonably well known (+/- 1min) fight length will let good players "have their cake and eat it, too". If you imagine that these large DPS enhancing CDs are the tines of a fork, you can slide the whole fork back and forth...... and get that last tine to land in BL territory. This gives you both the CD and the Execute.

And you don't need to be omniscient, either: Pop the CD right at the start just like normal..... but as you get close to that last 1min of the fight, you may choose to delay the next use of the CD-ability such that it lands inside BL.

• Zakalwe · 03/09/09, 8:59 AM

It's still easier to synchronize CDs with BL if you just pop everything at the beginning of the fight. And because the math quoted in that blog post seemed to show that the results will be exactly equal no matter when the BL occurs (given perfect CD/BL timing) it was concluded that one should always do it right away.

But in the comments to that blog post we've shown that some classes have execute rotations that scale better with haste than their regular rotations, and that this isn't accounted for in the original math. So the actual answer to the question "when should we pop BL?" turns out to depend on exactly how much of your DPS is provided by affliction warlocks and TG warriors. In other words, something you might want to analyze with Simulationcraft.

EDIT: Regarding the difficulty of timing CDs to occur during BL, keep in mind that there's an increasing number of trinkets that have a random buff with a relatively high proc chance and a relatively long cooldown. It's very likely for such buffs to fall entirely within the first 40 seconds of a fight, and much less likely for such buffs to fall entirely within the last 40 seconds of a fight.

dedmonwakeen · 03/09/09, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

EDIT: Regarding the difficulty of timing CDs to occur during BL, keep in mind that there's an increasing number of trinkets that have a random buff with a relatively high proc chance and a relatively long cooldown. It's very likely for such buffs to fall entirely within the first 40 seconds of a fight, and much less likely for such buffs to fall entirely within the last 40 seconds of a fight.

Good point. I believe one of the two trinkets for each base setup (caster/melee) has one of those trinkets and so was included in your test.

• frmorrison · 03/09/09, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

If you assume that the Judgments are "spells" and pull those out of the sample set, then 14PPM starts to look like a pretty solid model.

Late answer, but Judgements for Paladins could as ranged attacks (like hunter attacks). So if a spell can proc for ranged and melee attacks seperately, a Paladin would get extra procs.

Binkenstein · 03/10/09, 7:58 PM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

Interesting...... While popping cooldowns right away (which is what most simcraft AI do) guarantees that you maximize the number of times they come up, a fight with a reasonably well known (+/- 1min) fight length will let good players "have their cake and eat it, too". If you imagine that these large DPS enhancing CDs are the tines of a fork, you can slide the whole fork back and forth...... and get that last tine to land in BL territory. This gives you both the CD and the Execute.

And you don't need to be omniscient, either: Pop the CD right at the start just like normal..... but as you get close to that last 1min of the fight, you may choose to delay the next use of the CD-ability such that it lands inside BL.

It's more a test of the theory than anything else.

dedmonwakeen · 03/10/09, 8:26 PM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

It's more a test of the theory than anything else.

Actually...... You've convinced me..... Zak did some runs popping BL early and the raid dps was virtually the same.

Kalle · 03/14/09, 6:28 PM

I did some pet tests at the training dummies on the testrealm and noticed that recount's ability breakdown differs from simcraft's summary, at least for the succubus. The level 83 dummy tests were done in build 9658, the tests with the level 80 dummies in build 9684.

Melee_lvl80 (1), LoP_lvl80 (1), Melee_lvl80 (2), LoP_lvl80 (2), Melee_lvl83, LoP_lvl83

Lash of Pain only crits for 1.5x damage
Lash of Pain cannot be dodged
Lash of Pain Damage seems to be lower than in simcraft, I think you forgot the (1.5/3.5) multiplier to the succubus' spell power (casting speed adjustment).
Although Lash of Pain looks like a spell, it doesn't seem to use spell hit mechanics. I see only 1.6% miss for the level 83 dummy while having 211 hit rating (= 8.04% spell hit). It doesn't simply use the melee cap (8% according to [FAQ]Working theories of raiding at level 80) either. Probably 8% cap with melee hit rating formula (1% hit = 32.79 rating): 8% - 211*(819/26855) = 1.57% miss.
Normal melee attacks (from the succubus) however seem to use the spell hit rating formula (1% hit = 26.23 rating), because I didn't see a single miss in 6007 attacks with 211 hit rating. With 200 hit rating, I see misses.
I have no idea how critchances for the succubus are calculated. But you clearly see the critrate depression against the level 83 dummy for her melee attacks. The 13.3% crit simcraft reports seems quite low considering the fact that I had zero raidbuffs during my tests.
Oh, and I observed 25.3% glancing strikes which doesn't support the 24% chance most people here seems to agree on (at least this was my impression from looking at some of the search results for "glancing", however I don't play a melee class and don't follow their discussions) and what is used in simcraft. I think I saw a test with 7000+ attacks that resulted in 24%, maybe this has changed? Or it is different for pets? I don't know.

If you still need data on pet mana regeneration, I think I have enough free time now.

dedmonwakeen · 03/14/09, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by Kalle

I did some pet tests at the training dummies on the testrealm and noticed that recount's ability breakdown differs from simcraft's summary, at least for the succubus. The level 83 dummy tests were done in build 9658, the tests with the level 80 dummies in build 9684.

Melee_lvl80 (1), LoP_lvl80 (1), Melee_lvl80 (2), LoP_lvl80 (2), Melee_lvl83, LoP_lvl83

Lash of Pain only crits for 1.5x damage
Lash of Pain cannot be dodged
Lash of Pain Damage seems to be lower than in simcraft, I think you forgot the (1.5/3.5) multiplier to the succubus' spell power (casting speed adjustment).
Although Lash of Pain looks like a spell, it doesn't seem to use spell hit mechanics. I see only 1.6% miss for the level 83 dummy while having 211 hit rating (= 8.04% spell hit). It doesn't simply use the melee cap (8% according to [FAQ]Working theories of raiding at level 80) either. Probably 8% cap with melee hit rating formula (1% hit = 32.79 rating): 8% - 211*(819/26855) = 1.57% miss.
Normal melee attacks (from the succubus) however seem to use the spell hit rating formula (1% hit = 26.23 rating), because I didn't see a single miss in 6007 attacks with 211 hit rating. With 200 hit rating, I see misses.
I have no idea how critchances for the succubus are calculated. But you clearly see the critrate depression against the level 83 dummy for her melee attacks. The 13.3% crit simcraft reports seems quite low considering the fact that I had zero raidbuffs during my tests.
Oh, and I observed 25.3% glancing strikes which doesn't support the 24% chance most people here seems to agree on (at least this was my impression from looking at some of the search results for "glancing", however I don't play a melee class and don't follow their discussions) and what is used in simcraft. I think I saw a test with 7000+ attacks that resulted in 24%, maybe this has changed? Or it is different for pets? I don't know.

If you still need data on pet mana regeneration, I think I have enough free time now.

Kalle, thanks (as usual) for the exceptional level of detail. Looks like we need revisit Succy.....

And YES we definitely need hard data on pet mana regen. That is a big glaring hole in our model right now......

• Zakalwe · 03/15/09, 4:49 AM

My tests several months ago seemed to indicate PetMP5 ~= 0.3*WarlockIntellect. I couldn't quite get the numbers to match up to that simple equation, though it was hard to figure out if that was because of inaccurate testing methodology or because the equation is actually more complex, maybe involving spirit or some other factor.

I know very little about regen mechanics in general, but my initial reaction was that pet Mp5 scaling directly off the master's Intellect seemed pretty odd. And since pets running out of mana practically never happens in 3.0.X, I kind of left it at that. I do imagine pet mana issues might become more pressing in 3.1, though, so if anyone could independently confirm my result, we should implement it ASAP.

dedmonwakeen · 03/16/09, 4:27 PM

SimulationCraft r1851 available for download.

3.0.9 report: SampleOutput - simulationcraft - Google Code

3.1.0 report: SampleOutputPTR - simulationcraft - Google Code

A couple things to note:
(1) JoW is being modeled as 15PPM for both weapons and spells
(2) BoW and Mana Spring do not stack when patch=3.0.1

dedmonwakeen · 03/18/09, 1:03 PM

SimulationCraft r1882 available for download.

3.0.9 report: SampleOutput - simulationcraft - Google Code

3.1.0 report: SampleOutputPTR - simulationcraft - Google Code

All default profiles now use real gear-sets (with chardev links). We did our best to put BiS sets together. If you see any problems, be sure to let us know.

EDIT: The DPS-spread in the 3.0.9 report is rather tight...... (excluding DG shenanigans, of course!)

Starfox · 03/19/09, 12:34 AM

Saw the tier 8 bonuses/relics on mmo-champion.
Implemented in trunk right now are
Druid

Add Idol of the Corruptor (Need procchance/cd from PTR!)
Add Idol of the Crying Wind
Add Blanace Tier 8 2 piece bonus
Add Balance Tier 8 4 piece bonus (Need procchance/cd from PTR!)
Add Feral Tier 8 4 piece bonus
Starfire: Add option to take advantage on the new set bonus (instant=1)

I need actual numbers on the feral 2 piece bonus.

Priest

Add Shadow Tier 8 2 piece bonus

Wording of 4 piece bonus is borked, 15 haste rating? Need data on chance/cd and what it really is.

Rogue

Add Tier 8 bonuses

Shaman

Add Tier 8 bonuses for elemental and enhancement
Add Thunderfall Totem
Add Totem of the Dancing Flame

Need information on tier 8 4 piece elemental, time between ticks? Overall duration? I just assumed that it's a rolling DoT.

Warlock

Add Tier 8 bonuses

Need information on tier 8 2 piece bonus, is it additive to talents? Or multiplicative at the end?

• Zakalwe · 03/19/09, 7:37 AM

Originally Posted by Starfox

Warlock

Add Tier 8 bonuses

Need information on tier 8 2 piece bonus, is it additive to talents? Or multiplicative at the end?

I've changed your assumption from multiplicative to additive, because that's how glyphs work. Also because I'd rather underestimate than overestimate the value.

As an aside, I'm also assuming the 2 piece bonus will affect conflag damage, because the immolate glyph does now.

Starfox · 03/19/09, 9:49 AM

Elemental Focus Stone
Pyrite Infuser
Eye of the Broodmother

Are now in trunk

Corbetti · 03/24/09, 2:17 PM

Mac OS X binary now on downloads page.