SimulationCraft Model Development - Page 2

dedmonwakeen · 10/14/08, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by Fireye

I saw mention of a raid_70.txt that would be coming soon on the shadowpriest board, any idea when we might see that arrive?

I've been dragging my feet..... hoping someone else would do it.....

What's a good gear point that I can use across all classes? Tier6 + Badge fill-ins?

ithecho84 · 10/17/08, 4:51 PM

Well I can't proffess to knowing how the action line fully works, but I figure it was roughly the spell rotation. With this in mind, I wanted to play around with the Affliction Lock sequence a little and managed to squeeze out 20 more dps. I guess it does seem trivial though.

I changed the

actions=flask,type=pure_death/spell_stone/fel_armor/summon_pet,felhunter/haunt/curse_of_agony/corruption/unstable_affliction/siphon_life/shadow_bolt,shadow_trance=1/drain_soul,target_pct=20/immolate/shadow_bolt/dark_pact

to

actions=flask,type=pure_death/spell_stone/fel_armor/summon_pet,felhunter/unstable_affliction/haunt/corruption/curse_of_agony/siphon_life/shadow_bolt,shadow_trance=1/drain_soul,target_pct=20/immolate/shadow_bolt/dark_pact

Since dots won't tick for a few seconds anyways, why waste the uptime of increased dot damage buff from haunt when the time could be spent casting UA.

I played around with every possible order of the three instants after haunt, and this order came out to be the highest dps. Once again, 20 dps seems trivial but a dps increase is a dps increase! And it's a consistent one at that so I figure it's worth mentioning.

(Maybe I should have put this in the warlock thread)

Kalle · 10/19/08, 4:38 PM

On live, critical cleaves don't proc Demonic Empathy. I believe they currently do in SimulationCraft (though I'm not 100% sure). As I currently don't have access to the PTR or beta, I can't check it in the new build.

Kyrious · 10/19/08, 4:50 PM

Originally Posted by ithecho84

Once again, 20 dps seems trivial but a dps increase is a dps increase! And it's a consistent one at that so I figure it's worth mentioning.

This is one of the only places where a seemingly trivial dps upgrade is anything but. The entire forum's dedicated to squeezing out the most possible dps/rdps for each class/spec.

dedmonwakeen · 10/19/08, 4:59 PM

Originally Posted by Kalle

On live, critical cleaves don't proc Demonic Empathy. I believe they currently do in SimulationCraft (though I'm not 100% sure). As I currently don't have access to the PTR or beta, I can't check it in the new build.

Thanks, Kalle. I really appreciate your attention to detail.

We've had an explosion of functionality over the past few months..... and that will continue with Paladin/Hunter released soon.

At some point the team needs to stop and perform careful regression analysis. I think our individual spell mechanics are probably close enough to the "noise" region (not that we won't relentlessly pursue perfection), but I'm starting to believe that I need to rethink our handling of latency.

There are three types of actions
(1) instant
(2) cast-time
(3) channeled

There are nine different combinations of spell pairs. It is likely that some of those combinations can be combined into groups.

All I know for sure is that using the same random lag between actions is looking more and more like a very poor model.

I believe this is ESPECIALLY true with all the haste floating around creating a higher percentage of "lag points" in WotLK cast sequences.

I would really welcome experiential data in this area......

Gaborn · 10/20/08, 6:26 AM

Those 3 types of actions can be reduced to 2:
- Actions that allow other actions to be queued (cast-time and channeled)
- Actions that doesn't allow other actions to be queued (instant)

Because casting an instant breaks the posibilily of queuing the next action, that's the only situation that is affected by lag. Every other combination of actions is "lag free" because those actions allow to queue the next spell.

Erdluf · 10/20/08, 9:44 AM

Originally Posted by Gaborn

Those 3 types of actions can be reduced to 2:
- Actions that allow other actions to be queued (cast-time and channeled)
- Actions that doesn't allow other actions to be queued (instant)

Because casting an instant breaks the posibilily of queuing the next action, that's the only situation that is affected by lag. Every other combination of actions is "lag free" because those actions allow to queue the next spell.

That covers the usual case. There are exceptions though.

Some non-instants can have cast times less than the GC (Druid's Wrath under common conditions, or Starfire with PvP gear proc).

A ground-targeted spell requires two actions. I'm under the impression that actually placing the target cannot be queued. I've had mixed results on casting the spell (to get the target ring) early. It isn't something I've really studied.

dedmonwakeen · 10/20/08, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Gaborn

Those 3 types of actions can be reduced to 2:
- Actions that allow other actions to be queued (cast-time and channeled)
- Actions that doesn't allow other actions to be queued (instant)

Because casting an instant breaks the posibilily of queuing the next action, that's the only situation that is affected by lag. Every other combination of actions is "lag free" because those actions allow to queue the next spell.

I don't know if it is just a problem with Mind Flay, but many SPs have been lamenting about getting MF ticks cut off.

Is spell queuing really in place for channeled spells? Is it a MF-specific problem or more endemic.....?

Gaborn · 10/20/08, 3:28 PM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

I don't know if it is just a problem with Mind Flay, but many SPs have been lamenting about getting MF ticks cut off.

Is spell queuing really in place for channeled spells? Is it a MF-specific problem or more endemic.....?

You are right. I didn't think about that but yes, channeled casts don't allow to queue spells.

Kalku · 10/21/08, 9:18 PM

Originally Posted by Gaborn

You are right. I didn't think about that but yes, channeled casts don't allow to queue spells.

If by 'queuing spells' you mean precasting to remove the effect of lag, then I disagree, channeled casts allow precasting the next spell. I play in Australia, so my average lag is about 350ms. The only time that lag is a problem though is when it is fluctuating alot. Removing the effect of the average lag is something that every caster can and should do.

dedmonwakeen · 10/22/08, 12:56 AM

SimulationCraft r880 available for download.... too many changes to list.

One that deserves mention: Everlasting Affliction is no longer modeled in its original "bugged" form, dramatically reducing Aff-Warlock DPS.

The LatestReports haven't been built yet, but some SampleOutput can be found here.

BugRoger · 10/22/08, 9:06 AM

I tweaked the demo build of the raid_70 configuration and was able to get an increase of 330dps. This makes it the warlock build with the most dps at the moment

I reckon the build has to change for 3.0.3 with Demonic Empowerment going off the GCD.

Removed Cataclysm and specced into Ruin
Removed Demonic Empowerment from the build and rotation
Removed Immolate from the rotation
Specced Firestone (does only seem to have a irrelevant effect)
Improved Demonic Tactics yields better results than Demonic Empathy

#
# Demonology Warlock
#
warlock=Warlock_0_46_15
level=70
talents=http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warlock=550000050000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000023033011352121500035031200
actions=flask,type=pure_death/fire_stone/fel_armor/summon_pet,felguard/curse_of_doom/corruption/shadow_bolt/life_tap

dedmonwakeen · 10/22/08, 9:42 AM

Originally Posted by BugRoger

I tweaked the demo build of the raid_70 configuration and was able to get an increase of 330dps. This makes it the warlock build with the most dps at the moment

I reckon the build has to change for 3.0.3 with Demonic Empowerment going off the GCD.

Removed Cataclysm and specced into Ruin
Removed Demonic Empowerment from the build and rotation
Removed Immolate from the rotation
Specced Firestone (does only seem to have a irrelevant effect)
Improved Demonic Tactics yields better results than Demonic Empathy

Thanks!

I'll get that into the next release..... which should be soon given that I'm thinking about retracting my change to Everlasting Affliction.......

Kalle · 10/26/08, 3:25 PM

Several of your lvl70 players use three instead of the two glyphs available at lvl70. Some of the glyphs you use for them are not available until we have acces to herbs from Northrend, Glyph of Curse of Agony, Glyph of Felguard and Glyph of Siphon Life for warlocks (didn't check for other classes).

Kalle · 10/29/08, 9:49 AM

In spell_t::level_based_miss_chance you are still enforcing a minimum chance to miss of 1%.

dedmonwakeen · 10/29/08, 3:39 PM

Originally Posted by Kalle

In spell_t::level_based_miss_chance you are still enforcing a minimum chance to miss of 1%.

Bah.... That must have happened when I stripped out support for the 2.x mechanics. Cut the wrong line! Thanks.

I'll have a new build out very soon.

EDIT: New build will also include latest research on SnF.

dedmonwakeen · 10/29/08, 4:14 PM

SimulationCraft r984 available for download.

Key changes:
* Spell minimum resist rate changed from 1% to 0%
* Warlock talent Shadow-and-Flame changed to modify the spell coefficient multiplicatively instead of additively
* Multi-Threading for UNIX. I tried to get it to work on Windows..... but it is like trying to perform brain-surgery in mittens. I'll have another go at it in a week when I'm less frustrated.

Roywyn · 10/29/08, 4:21 PM

Hey Dedmonwakeen!

First of all, thanks a lot for your great tool. I never got to say that earlier, sadly.
I'm bringing you some news from the beta update front! Bad news though.

Judgement of Wisdom is changed to:
No cooldown (buff)
1% max Mana on proc (nerf)
25% proc rate (ouch)

It procs on spell hits, including Arcane Missile waves and hopefully Mind Flay waves since it's not a DoT anymore.
DoTs can proc it too, but only on the initial application. Not on the ticks.

There are some mage details:
Living Bomb's explosion is now affected by Burnout and Master of Elements (mana loss/gain).
Also, Blizzard and Arcane Missiles work with Master of Elements, returning 10% per rank of 1/8th or 1/5th of the base mana cost when a wave crits.
Frostfire Bolt's DoT portion no longer scales with spell power, not even with talents.

Thanks again for your great work, and don't hesitate to ask when you want to know some more/details.
Even though I'm sometimes slow at replying

Edit: Talk about horrible timing. It feels like having thrown a monkey wrench into your new update.
The change to JoW is pretty likely to wreck some classes' mana.

dedmonwakeen · 10/29/08, 4:44 PM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

It procs on spell hits, including Arcane Missile waves and hopefully Mind Flay waves since it's not a DoT anymore.
DoTs can proc it too, but only on the initial application. Not on the ticks.

It is currently modeled as a spell/attack hit event in the sim. The change is easy.... but I fear what it will do to some casters.

Thanks for the Mage details. I'll get them coded up.

Edit: Talk about horrible timing. It feels like having thrown a monkey wrench into your new update.
The change to JoW is pretty likely to wreck some classes' mana.

No big deal. Releases are very simple to put out...... I just wait for major changes because I'm lazy.

The JoW change definitely counts as "major" so a new release will be forthcoming.....

EDIT: And thanks for taking the time to post in this thread. Due to the cross-class nature of the sim I find it hard to keep up with all the relevant forums......

dedmonwakeen · 10/29/08, 5:07 PM

SimulationCraft r986 available for download.....

...includes Jow and Master of Elements functionality as described by Roywyn.

SampleOutput can be found here.

With the exception of Druids, the JoW change seemed okay/good.

Unfortunately, until I get setup for .Net programming on the desktop I cannot update LatestReport wiki pages.

Erdluf · 10/29/08, 5:41 PM

For the druid, the five points in Genesis probably added a total of 1% to his DPS (5% boost to IS and MF, and they were 21% of his DPS).

Move a couple of those points to Intensity (or Dreamstate or Moonglow) and the mana should be fine for your sample fight. For a longer fight, you could also take points from Improved Moonfire (those two talent points provided a total of 1% of his DPS).

I'd play with it, but I'm about to hit the road.

The build/rotation is a bit artificial. Most Balance Druids will probably leave IMotW to restoration druids (who won't spec Furor). Most will not be casting FF either (and many won't spec IFF). Misery will take care of the spellhit portion of IFF, and Ferals will cast FF (Feral) for the Armor debuf. Feral's are typically not GC limited, and FFF does not cost any rage or energy.

dedmonwakeen · 10/29/08, 7:33 PM

Originally Posted by Erdluf

For the druid, the five points in Genesis probably added a total of 1% to his DPS (5% boost to IS and MF, and they were 21% of his DPS).

Move a couple of those points to Intensity (or Dreamstate or Moonglow) and the mana should be fine for your sample fight. For a longer fight, you could also take points from Improved Moonfire (those two talent points provided a total of 1% of his DPS).

I'd play with it, but I'm about to hit the road.

The build/rotation is a bit artificial. Most Balance Druids will probably leave IMotW to restoration druids (who won't spec Furor). Most will not be casting FF either (and many won't spec IFF). Misery will take care of the spellhit portion of IFF, and Ferals will cast FF (Feral) for the Armor debuf. Feral's are typically not GC limited, and FFF does not cost any rage or energy.

Okay, I'll juggle the talents. Thanks for the info.

Your post implies that it is sufficient to take IFF (but not cast it) to get the buff? I didn't realize someone finally went through the pain to confirm this.....

Erdluf · 10/30/08, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

Your post implies that it is sufficient to take IFF (but not cast it) to get the buff? I didn't realize someone finally went through the pain to confirm this.....

Bullocks did some testing, where he had a very low (about 3.5% on paper doll) crit rate. Over a few hundred casts, with no feral FF, his actual crit rate was in the 3-5% range. With FFF on the target, but only 300 casts, he saw a crit rate of almost 9%.

That is few enough casts that a false positive was a real possibility (any statisticians want to figure the odds?). Until we see a more thorough test, I'm inclined to believe his results (and the wording on the tooltip).

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Improved FF is indeed affected by Feral FF

Also, Starfall is borderline effective in a single-target rotation (may have higher DPET than a non-eclipse Starfire, particularly at low +spellpower). If you want to model it:

A single target, at range, will be hit by 10 stars (should be 12 with Starfall Glyph at 80). The stars have a 2% spellpower coefficient, each. Starfall is affected by Nature's Majesty, Vengeance, and Moonglow. In 3.02, Starfall crits cause Moonkin mana regen, but Blue has said that will be nerfed. Base damage for each star is

80: 433-503
70: 250-290

Enemies near the moonkin (tooltip says "within five yards of the enemy target", but that is not the observed behavior) take some additional damage, but as a general rule Moonkin won't want to be in melee range of bosses. Coefficient for these stars is 0.5% (each). Damage is

80: 78
70: 45 <-- Edited

I'm not sure if this matters in the Simulationcraft context, but Starfall is treated as a buff on the Druid, not as a DoT. This means that changes in the Druid's state can affect affect future stars. For instance, if the Druid dies, Starfall goes away. If the Druid gains (or loses) Owlkin Frenzy, the damage of future stars goes up (or down).

dedmonwakeen · 10/30/08, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by Erdluf

Bullocks did some testing, where he had a very low (about 3.5% on paper doll) crit rate. Over a few hundred casts, with no feral FF, his actual crit rate was in the 3-5% range. With FFF on the target, but only 300 casts, he saw a crit rate of almost 9%.

I guess I better stop fooling around with tweaks and multi-threading and get back into gear expanding the class support.

I can force a FFF debuff.... but I'd rather have a real Feral Druid putting it up.....

Munorion · 10/30/08, 11:42 AM

Regarding IFF, using the numbers Erdluf linked to and very rough napkin math, it's something like a 2.5 sigma effect. Which, if you assume a normal distribution, should correspond to below 5% probability that there is no effect from the faerie fire.

Edit:
Actually, forgot what I wrote above. The 2 sigma (=95% confidence level) intervals of the two values overlap pretty strongly (it's something like [2.9; 6.1]% for the crit without FF and [5.45; 12.25]% for the crit with FF), and it obviously gets worse if you go to 3 sigma. So, the sample size is simply too small to say anything definite.