Sydane

How about the flip side of how lucky pure dps classes will be and how much it's going to suck to be a hybrid with this system? If you want to roll a dps caster, and you have a choice between mage and moonkin, and you know as a moonkin your raid is probably going to force you to respec and heal some encounters, plenty of people will just roll a mage. I certainly don't envy the shadow priests and ret paladins in LFG who will get repeatedly told they can only join the group if they "use their free respec and heal." There's an upside and a downside to everything. Are you going to chastise the hybrid who has a pvp spec as his offspec instead of a healing spec when you don't make the same demands of a warlock? Not to mention the fact that plenty of the dps hybrids I know I wouldn't trust to heal a 5 man, much less a raid encounter.

I think it's going to be much more likely to see people start instances with 3-4 tanks and 8-9 healers, and have those switch to dps when not needed in their primary roles. I don't expect people to be brought in as dps and then asked to switch to tanking or healing on the fly. That way, you can recruit healers especially heavily, start instances with lots of them, and never have to worry about those encounters where you don't need as many. Plus, the healers could rotate amongst themselves who gets to take a fight off and dps, or you could rotate based on the type of encounters you have.

Empathy does not imply approval.

 

Mode

I'm going to guess you don't actually play a warrior because the past is present. I get cold called at least once per day by people to come tank something for them; I suspect it's because I spend a lot of time as prot and they armory me, but it's also because of the three tank classes, warriors are by far the most likely to be in their tank spec, be geared for it, and not suck.

Then again, maybe it's the same reason hunters are always asking me to mark square as trap and mages demand I set moon as sheep mark.

 

Malleus

I'm a Paladin, I've never been Prot and I still get frequent whispers to come tank $NORMALINSTANCE whenever I'm on. When I'm in MH or BT, even, sometimes. Nothing's going to change when dual-spec is introduced, except I'm going to get pestered twice as often and saying I'm a healer won't be enough to get rid of the idiots because "u can swich to ur tank spec, why u not swichin u fuken nub?"

It's still a great change, mind you. I can stand a bit of pestering if it means getting my dailies done in less than geological time.

 

Dollar

This is the reason dnd messages exist. Everytime you log on type "/dnd No." Even if dnd messages didn't exist, I'd gladly have 100 bads whisper me every hour asking me to join their arena teams for the dual spec feature.

"Oh he's a sad little man? He's thrown a kettle over a pub, what have you done?"

 

ildon

And so I did!

Source.

 

Shadout

But how much lower!
(and obviously a raid without mages would have lower dps, since we bring a unique dps buff. but I assume that was not his point)

Not sure what to think of instant and free spec changing, it surely has both good and bad implications. It does seem to me, that this combined with the merging of item stats, will make some hybrids more useful and 'better' compared to pure dps. But it remains to be seen. In the end its not like I would reroll even if hybrids were better.
The point is not that raids would start to bring hybrids only, thats unlikely and slightly silly even if some did.

The issue is making the players feeling they bring as much to the raid (and PvP and 5mans etc) as others imo. (ignoring the 'take the skilled one'-argument , because, that card can be played to win pretty much any argument, without actually proving anything...).

 

flyingtoastr

It doesn't change a thing for hybrids. Just because you can respc doesn't mean you have the gear to do that job well.

This is stupid.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

LearningCurve

except the changed what you need... spellpower = healing power and spellpower therefore an elemental shaman should have no issues at all switching to resto for instance.

However the dps/healer -> tank switch will still be much more gear oriented, it doesnt really require much to OT in raids or even less in heroics/5mans.

I really dont feel threatened by the change in hybrids as a mage, just the ret palies. EVERY paladin wants to be ret now.

 

Malleus

True, but he won't be as good at it as a Shaman in full Resto kit. DPS spell gear has stat points sunk into +hit, which Restos don't need.

 

Mman

I'm more worried about how two specs will balance out among various hybrids. Shaman/priest/druid healers can easily swap specs and dps without too much of a dps loss really. Same can be said for those class casters specs, but in reverse. A bear druid can pretty easily switch to a kitty spec and do gimp dps, but the reverse is not true (cannot tank in cat gear). Enhancement shaman and all pallys pretty much cannot switch specs without a seperate set of gear.

Seems like in a 25-man raid things like this won't be as big of an issue. There are lots of slots, so there will be room for druid who can only dps as cat. Where I really see an issue is once the 10-man raids start getting harder. Your ability to play two different specs is much more valued when slots are highly limited.

 

Anedris

Eh, carrying around multiple gear sets is nothing new for hybrids. And though its true that spec-swapping becomes more valuable in a smaller group, you're still not going to need more than at absolute most 6 healers/tanks (2 tanks, 4 healers would be way out of whack for a 10-person but not completely unimaginable). That still leaves space for one of each of the pure DPSers (and there is no particular advantage to filling those four spots with hybrids because you're never going to need to ask them to tank or heal - you've already got all of that covered with the other six spots).

 

Teenee

It's not stupid. The changes to ratings and the spell power changes makes it alot easier to gear two caster specs. A few percent of hit rating isn't going to cripple you performance as a restoration druid or shaman, and vice versa. A few appropiate enchants and select item choices/gems, and that may be all you need to do the job "well". I'm not sure of how close the plate users protection and DPS trees allow any sort of similar gearing. Str is good for all, but I think that may be the extent of it.

And while hearting and respeccing was always an option for more "hardcore" souls, directly supporting it in-game, with a minimum of hassle opens this door for alot more people.

Assuming the elemental shaman can just shed SOME of those +hit points into anything else (crit, spell power, mp5, int, etc), the difference in stats between him and a char who has geared solely for resto is hopefully going to be so small, that it falls into the "noise", and simply end up as a matter of player skill. No, he won't be AS good, but he's (hopefully) going to be so close for all practical purposes that it would only matter to real min-maxers. Literally world-firsts kinda guilds.

 

Linnet

I can definitely see need rolls in 5-mans (or anywhere you use n/g) getting more frenetic. Since people will be more keen to roll on off-spec gear. If my role as a WotLK warrior requires tanking some fights and dps in others then damn straight I'll roll on the fury gear, for example.

Druid: Peace

 

Anedris

Look - no remotely serious guild is going to have a hybrid heal in non-healing gear on a progression encounter. For some classes the healing gear is similar to DPS gear but it's not the same (healing gear has mana regen on it where the best DPS gear almost invariably does not, plus there's the hit issue, plus the two roles will value things like crit and haste differently). There would be no point in flasking up to gain 3% more performance and then throwing away 15% of the effectiveness of one of your healers by having him/her healing in sub-optimal gear.

Hybrids are going to have multiple gear sets. Some items will be the same between them but no one is going to DPS in one progression encounter and then turn around and heal the next equally hard encounter in the same gear. (Farm content's another story but I trust we don't need to balance around that.)

 

Mman

I think you will see people dpsing one fight and healing the next, especially in a 10-man raid. It might not be the exact same gear, they are going to throw on any offset pieces they have managed to pick up, but so many caster/healer pieces overlap that a few choice pieces will be more than enough. It is a fact in the game that the gear requirement for healers is not as difficult as other classes. An elemental shaman might not have the perfect gear set, but if they are good at healing it will be more than enough to fill a 3rd healer spot.

And being able to bring somebody who can fill a healer/dps slot equally will be hugely convienient. Imagine a raid, you have 2 tanks/healers and 5dps. We are allready seeing in Naxx some ecounters only needing 2 healers and some being much easier with 3. If you have a 10th spot open, bringing in a class that can both fill a dps slot and a heal slot is going to be far superior then picking a class that can only do one and gimping yourself for the other fights or switching people in and out.

 

sovelis41

That's completely true, but it is just basic raid planning. If you know you might need a third healer for something than you need to account for that, but pure DPS classes still aren't being shafted in this situation at all as they'll still account for potentially half of the raid. Furthermore you have to evaluate the no free lunch scenario of adding another healer. Is the loss in DPS (which is much more significant in a 10 man raid) worth making the fight longer with extra heals? Obviously in some of the new Naxx encounters it is, but this isn't always the case, and like everything in raiding comes back to the same declaration: Do whatever works for your raid group.

I definitely expect to make use of my hybrid players to their fullest extent. Maybe I'll favor a little more healing on a fight then respec them as we learn to increase dps, it will just depend on us and I won't know until we actually start raiding at 80.

You pay for the whole chair, but you only need the edge.

 

Sydane

The other important aspect of the dual spec development is, people are going to have to get used to raiding at 80 without the dual spec feature. Raid groups are going to build up and come together for at least one full tier of raiding before dual spec is even an option. So while it's certainly worth keeping in mind for the long term (maybe by recruiting and gearing up more healers), you're not going to be able to plan raids around it in the beginning unless you intend to pretend it exists and just hearth and resummon.

Personally though, I still feel like the best approach is to start with extra tanks and healers, and have them spec dps when not needed, rather than starting with a lot of dps and having them spec to heal when it is needed. It's a subtle difference, but I think it alleviates a ton of the potential pure vs hybrid dps issues.

Empathy does not imply approval.

 

Aditu

Healing and DPS stats are the same. I don't quite understand what some of you mean by 'gearing up healers.' The shadow priest will have the same gear as the disc priest, holy priest, or mage to a large degree making dual spec off healing an option.

In fact, I honestly don't know what well established raid group has a player that _WILL_ONLY_DPS_ or _WILL_ONLY_HEAL and not momentarily respec in order to help the raid advance content. Furthermore, I personally would never ask any of our shadow priests to respec to fill a gap in for one of my healers unless I absolutely knew they were competent enough to fill the role I asked of them.

You guys are also neglecting the fact that this works both ways in that when we go from a boss that requires 9 healers to one that requires only 6, I can have three of my healers spec DPS and still benefit from the fact that we've got a player we know is excellent still in the raid instead of sitting in Dalaran or on top of the Org bank.

Not to mention, it would probably change reduce the degree of healer burn out and generally increase the level of player skill if everyone that can spec healing or dps can experience both sides of the coin.

As for the warriors complaining that they'll get more whispers, don't lie, you love the attention.

 

Austin

Actually, the gear is quite different. There is still a differentiation between healing gear, healing trinkets, healing Offhands, and DPS gear, DPS trinkets, and DPS offhands. I had to pay close attention to the trinkets that were dropping in Naxx because a few of them say XX spellpower, Chance to increase your healing by XX, or your heal has a chance to XYZ, clearly not a DPS trinket, but it can be used as one for some of the tertiary benefits. The healing gear all has Mana/5 on it, and the DPS gear tends to have +hit on it. You will not find a single piece of cloth gear with Mana/5 and +hit on it.

While raiding Naxx I've passed on ~70% of the cloth drops because they were not DPS upgrades from the PvP gear that had dropped, but were clear Healing upgrades for the healers in their PvP gear.

Austin, 80 Mage - Austyn, 80 Death Knight - Austen, 70 Rogue - Dormant account - 70 Resto Druid, 70 Feral Druid

 

Sydane

The point is, every healer is a hybrid by default. You bring in people that want to heal, that plan to be healers, and you gear them as such. When you start a raid you have 3-4 tank slots, 8-9 healer slots, and the rest dps. The dps are just that, dps. It doesn't matter if they are moonkin or rogues, they are dps. If you hit a fight where you only need 6 healers, or you're doing trash, the healers (and extra tanks) switch to dps. For most of the classes that should require a minimal gear switch. In addition, quality healers are much more likely to be average or above average dps than quality dps are likely to be above average healers. They also get the chance to take a break from the much more stressful job of healing and dps on some fights, something that can be rotated. At no point are you ever asking dps to sit to bring in a healer, nor are you asking dps to switch to being healers.

Sure, it's in many ways just perception and semantics. But as anyone that runs an organization will tell you, perception of one's job is the largest part of being happy with it. The enhancement shaman should never have to worry about being forced to heal, and the healer knows they will have the opportunity to take a break some times. The mage knows he won't lose his slot to someone who can switch to healing or tanking. It gives everyone a level of comfort with the role that they have.

Empathy does not imply approval.

 

Mman

What about pally's. I'm not really familiar with their gear choices, but it seems like without a different set of gear they will be pretty terrible dpsers. Their DPS spec is unique in that it isn't a caster.

 

Douglas

Actually, after 3.0, it's Holy that's unique in that it is a caster. All the abilities that protadins use scale with attack power now.

Actually, even that is an oversimplification.

The abilities that protadins use scale with both attack power and spell power. They scale a bit better with attack power, but can manage with spell power.

Tanking plate is being built "warrior-style" for everyone now. New tanking gear is going to be AP-centric, not spellpower-centric, even for paladins.

Tanking all that together, if you wanted to make a paladin who switched between prot and ret, that's the easiest in terms of gear overlap. If you wanted to make one that switch between prot and holy, that's doable with some gear overlap, but you're going to be weak on tanking stats (defense, stamina) -- probably okay for 5-mans and fill-in AOE tanking, but this isn't gonna be the best approach for your raid MT. And if you wanted one that switched back and forth between Holy and Ret... well... that's not extremely viable in terms of sharing gear. If a holy paladin wants to go out and DPS, they're better off doing it as prot (or collecting a more complete second gear set). Even in that case, remember that crit rating and haste and stuff work for both spells and melee now, so it's not as bad as folks might think.

IMO. YMMV. IANAL. EIEIO.

 

katholas

As a shadow priest I can promise you that I will not have the same gear as a healer. The stats we value in WotlK are spell power, hit, crit, and haste with INT as our best mana regen stat. I can assure you that when I am done gearing up in naxx I will have very close to zero spirit and zero mp5. This is far from ideal healing gear, in fact I'm pretty sure this wouldn't even be passable healing gear.

Don't worry, healing gear and DPS gear are still very different. For a hybrid to heal well they will still have to have 2 sets, nothing really different from live except that we no longer have to get a port and a summon when we respec.

 

Lanlaorn

I may be just speaking for myself here, but IMO the martyrdom of healers and difficulty of healing are real misconceptions that needs to be put to rest.

I played a Mage in Classic and rerolled a Holy Priest for TBC raiding. Similarly I know a Rogue who rerolled Resto Shaman, a Hunter that rerolled Holy Priest, all amazing healers. We didn't do it out of necessity, but because we wanted to. Basically,

1) Healing is not difficult. It's not even more difficult than DPS if you're serious about both. A good player is a good player no matter what the role. If your best DPS rerolled as healers they'd be among your best healers, garunteed.

2) Healing is fun. It's not a chore that some people unfortunately have to do. You say an Enh Shaman shouldn't be concerned that he'll be forced to heal and your healers "get the chance to take a break from the much more stressful job of healing and dps on some fights". It's not a fun treat, it's annoying.

Frankly, instead of letting me DPS during trash I would vastly prefer if trash had the same healing load as the bosses it lies in between. Healers get bored on trash with low healing requirements and start DPSing not because it's an awesome break from the drudgery of healing but because they don't want to feel like complete dead weight.

All the good healers I have known feel this way. It's the bad players who reroll healers so that they are 'needed' that perpetuate these notions of the vast complexity of healing and how incredibly dull it is.

 

Douglas

This very much depends on your environment.

If a good healer is surrounded by a good tank and good DPSers, then I can't find fault with what you say.

But what if you have friends who are less skilled, but who are friends, and so you want to play with them? What if you're not in a big enough guild to do all the content you want without involving outsiders?

Or, good heavens, what if you decide to PUG some day?

With a bad tank and bad DPSers, a healer has it very rough.

I think this is in part why tanking is being buffed so much, with pretty much everyone getting viable AOE tanking and with threat caps being made less important. Blizzard needs for tanks and healers to PUG, even if the PUG community has a bunch of ... less than spectacular players in it.