Well, the dual spec feature has been confirmed. Great! What use can we give that?
Granted, there's a significant amount of people in Sunwell that are willing and able to hearth and respec every (other) fight, and for those people this will be, at best, convenient. But perhaps we can put this feature to some more optimal use.
Provided this technique works, at the very least, I can see druids and paladins speccing into Imp MotW and BoKings with a buffing spec, and a pure throughput no-buffs spec. Not sure about druids, but as a Holy/Protection paladin you can go 0/10/61 with Kings and Imp Might and still have a solid secondary spec for grinding. Priests get to spec in and out of Divine Spirit too.
Not sure if I'm getting this right, but if you're implying to spec for for example divine spirit, buff the raid and spec out of it, the buff will disappear as soon as you respec (at least currently it does, so it will probably continue to do so then as well).
I'm not certain if this works in the same fashion as improved versions of buffs though.
The use I see in the dual spec feature:
- Purely PvE: your poor pallies (for example) won't have to spec in and out of prot every week (easy raid stacking)
- Being able to easily spec frost/fire for a boss that has immunities (again, easy raid stacking for what you need)
- Secondary use: a grinding spec for your healers, which can be of use in PvE as well (your holy priests going PvE spec shadowpriests for example, also nice if you need less healers/more dps in a fight *kalec -> brutallus anyone?*)
- Ofcourse, the option to have a "free" PvP spec for those that enjoy some arena next to their PvE raiding (and well, the other way around as well), which lessens the burden on those that enjoy both parts of the game.
- A secondary PvP spec for different arena brackets
I would add some more options here:
- speccing for different abilites for the same role (Priests speccing for Circle of Healing on ROS versus Pain Suppresion on somthing like Supremus, etc, that is, assuming they wouldn't be trivial encounters for your raid)
- not needing to have 3 tank specced people sitting around doing nothing on single tank fights, after you just used them to clear all the trash up to that fight. Sure, they can just run around picking spines on Naj, or ferals can combat ress on Teron, and such, but just respeccing your prot pally to healing or ret and your prot warriors to fury on a single tank fight could solve some of their problems. Even assuming the offspec gear is a tier or two lower than the main spec gear, with a proper spec, it would yield better results (pallies would be better at healing or dpsing than they would in the same gear with a prot spec)
Originally Posted by XI-
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
I plan on speccing my Druid feral and resto to get the most use out of my character and provide flexibility to the raid. I think WotLK is going to definitely be the age of the hybrid class. Guilds won't have to have many players sitting on the bench waiting for thier class/spec to be needed either. Blizzard really continues to impress me with thier intuitiveness, and willingness to change the game in favor of the players playing it.
Well, the dual spec feature has been confirmed. Great! What use can we give that?
Granted, there's a significant amount of people in Sunwell that are willing and able to hearth and respec every (other) fight, and for those people this will be, at best, convenient. But perhaps we can put this feature to some more optimal use.
Provided this technique works, at the very least, I can see druids and paladins speccing into Imp MotW and BoKings with a buffing spec, and a pure throughput no-buffs spec. Not sure about druids, but as a Holy/Protection paladin you can go 0/10/61 with Kings and Imp Might and still have a solid secondary spec for grinding. Priests get to spec in and out of Divine Spirit too.
What other uses can you see for this?
I can't understand what you are trying to say. Are you asking if every class have two specs worth using in raids? Or are you asking whether a second spec for pvp or farming is more worth while? Surely a mage having a spare spec against boss immunity, or a protection paladin with a healing/dps spec, is more "optimal" than a secondary buff spec? Unless you mean that a certain buff won't be needed for a boss fight?
FYI, I've been respeccing between protection and dps since SSC/TK time. I think my two specs are sorted already.
I plan on speccing my Druid feral and resto to get the most use out of my character and provide flexibility to the raid. I think WotLK is going to definitely be the age of the hybrid class. Guilds won't have to have many players sitting on the bench waiting for thier class/spec to be needed either. Blizzard really continues to impress me with thier intuitiveness, and willingness to change the game in favor of the players playing it.
I think raiding ferals will have to go Feral Bear/Feral Cat(or moonkin!) as their two specs now. I'd imagine Paladins would be similar speccing Prot/Ret. Basically if you're a tank you want to be useful in fights where you need less tanks than you brought. Clicking a button and changing to DPS mode is great. I'd think healing would be less useful as you tend to bring as many healers as you need. An extra one serves little function whereas more DPS is always useful.
I don't really see where this thread will go. Slightly sub-optimal offspecs that hit rare raid buffs might be good IF it works. Other than that people are going to have their offspec as either their raid/dungeon offspec role, their pvp spec or their grinding spec. Its great in terms of flexibility, especially for more casual 5 man/heroic gamers who can switch from healing/tanking/dps at a button click should there be a glut in one spec, but I just don't see much to discuss on it.
Originally Posted by Shadowed
The best part is, not only were you late in linking it, that's an April fools topic from 6 months ago.
FYI, I've been respeccing between protection and dps since SSC/TK time. I think my two specs are sorted already.
Yes, I realize many people are doing that, and switching people in and out of the raid/having the hearth and respec routine is pretty popular in SWP, from what I understand. This feature will make life easier for that crowd, that much is pretty obvious. But "making things easier" is different from "making things possible" (even if the time-constrained protadin in me loves how it makes life easier). The EJ-worthiness of the question lies elsewhere: what are the truly innovative uses this feature will bring? Ingmar has already blown away the "buff and respec" idea, but my gut feeling is that there are other things one could do with this.
Last edited by pdpi : 10/13/08 at 10:03 AM.
Reason: Spelling
I think raiding ferals will have to go Feral Bear/Feral Cat(or moonkin!) as their two specs now. I'd imagine Paladins would be similar speccing Prot/Ret. Basically if you're a tank you want to be useful in fights where you need less tanks than you brought. Clicking a button and changing to DPS mode is great. I'd think healing would be less useful as you tend to bring as many healers as you need. An extra one serves little function whereas more DPS is always useful.
I don't really see where this thread will go. Slightly sub-optimal offspecs that hit rare raid buffs might be good IF it works. Other than that people are going to have their offspec as either their raid/dungeon offspec role, their pvp spec or their grinding spec. Its great in terms of flexibility, especially for more casual 5 man/heroic gamers who can switch from healing/tanking/dps at a button click should there be a glut in one spec, but I just don't see much to discuss on it.
I'm actually more of a 5/10 man player so I think that having the ability to move from tanking on an encounter to healing on another would be very viable. What I can see though for larger guilds is having a more difficult time with loot distribution, since in actuallity every character will now have 2 main specs. Specialization between tanking and DPS is definitely something that true ferals will consider very appealing though.
I see this as being more beneficial to 10-man raids myself. There are already situations where a single tank is optimal in one fight, and where two tanks are optimal in the next (Malacras followed by Zul'jin for example). I can certainly imagine other raids where you might want two healers for one fight and three healers for another. Bringing a group of players like:
- Prot Warrior.
- Prot Pala, with 2nd Spec Ret.
- Enh Shaman, with 2nd spec Resto.
- 2 main healers.
- 5 main DPS.
means you can swap between raid compositions of:
- 1 Tank, 2 Healers, 7 DPS
- 1 Tank, 3 Healers, 6 DPS
- 2 Tanks, 2 Healers, 6 DPS
- 2 Tanks, 3 Healers, 5 DPS
on the fly at any time. This is a big benefit for 10-man raiding in my opinion, and adds a ton of flexibility. With Ulduar supposedly complete, we can only hope that 3.1 won't be too far behind WotLK at this point.
I see this as being more beneficial to 10-man raids myself. There are already situations where a single tank is optimal in one fight, and where two tanks are optimal in the next (Malacras followed by Zul'jin for example).
Bringing up Z'A reminds me of a particular case where the on-the-fly respec is indeed an advantage: raid stacking during a bear run. Of course, we won't actually get to do it, but speed runs are a definite use case where hearthing and respeccing won't do.
Almost everything in there is two-tank except Akil'zon, so the offtank could go dps for him alone. A priest could easily go shadow for trash (and conceptually use the massive healing of VE to make a single healer doable), and go holy for bosses. Etc etc, that sort of trick seems pretty reasonable.
I'd hoped they'd added some sort of limitation to the switching itself so it couldn't just be subverted into another thing a guild can require you to optimize for their benefit. If its just gonna be used for two raid specs it kinda defeats the point of having it there to begin with, which was freeing people from being locked into raid spec if they couldn't cough up enough cash every time
Of course I have an obvious warlock bias but if I can speak on my class for a second, the raid specs are affliction and destruction, with the former being useful for farming/dailies provided its 3 AM and you are alone. On a PVP server like Kil'jaeden in a place like Quel'danas if you want to do your dailies and be able to survive the gankers you'd have to spec demonology for the soul link at least because affliction means you might kill them but only after you're dead.
I'd hoped they'd added some sort of limitation to the switching itself so it couldn't just be subverted into another thing a guild can require you to optimize for their benefit. If its just gonna be used for two raid specs it kinda defeats the point of having it there to begin with, which was freeing people from being locked into raid spec if they couldn't cough up enough cash every time
The locking wouldn't make any difference. Just inconvenience. People are already hearthing out and being summoned back between fights to switch specs.
From a warlock view point, two specs won't be enough if the health stone situation isn't changed from live. You have your tanking and dps spec, plus 3 variations of each to provide three health stones in progress raids.
I'd hoped they'd added some sort of limitation to the switching itself so it couldn't just be subverted into another thing a guild can require you to optimize for their benefit. If its just gonna be used for two raid specs it kinda defeats the point of having it there to begin with, which was freeing people from being locked into raid spec if they couldn't cough up enough cash every time
I think Blizz have come to terms with the reality that some people will always stack the deck in their favor. Past a certain point, it becomes a grindfest and all you can do is try to level the playing field so that the difference in progress between guilds isn't "casual vs hardcore" but "clueless vs skilled".
I've also come to terms with the fact that people will use and abuse all features, so I wanted to bring the dual spec feature to the spotlight, and see what can be done with it that is impossible without.
From a warlock view point, two specs won't be enough if the health stone situation isn't changed from live. You have your tanking and dps spec, plus 3 variations of each to provide three health stones in progress raids.
Healthstones will be unique regardless of talenting.
I can see where people are coming from regarding pvp vs pve dualspecs - while it might be true that some guilds will require both specs to be pve-relevant, it still means pvp will be possible for some of those classes for whom it wasn't previously. We've all seen many a tank/healer complain how dps classes can farm/pvp in their pve spec. Well, that will be the case for healers/tanks now as well, because they'll probably have a secondary dps spec - even it's not optimized for grinding or pvp, it's still better than nothing.
As for this being mostly beneficial in 10-mans, I certainly see it being equally beneficial in 25-mans. Going from 4 tanks on trash to 1 tank on a boss (hypothetical case) without hearthing will be very nice indeed. Bosses will favor different amounts of healers, and being able to adjust this number will be extremely helpful as well. The end result will probably be a higher average dps, as there is really no need to have tank-specced dps'er anymore, and the number of healers can be changed mid-raid. Trash clears will be faster, as the amount of healers is adjusted down, and the amount of tanks (if needed for more mob control) is turned up. It allows guilds to make hardmode attempts on selected bosses (assuming instances with multiple bosses will have this option).
There isn't really much to say about different "tricks" for using dualspecs. It's really just a way to change the composition of the raid without hearthing and respeccing.
I already see some misinformation spreading in here.
- Despite what a lot of people seem to think, buffs do not fade when someone respecs currently. It was also not said at BlizzCon that (improved) buffs would fade when someone switches their spec using the new system.
- In WotLK (And 3.0) people can have only a single Healthstone. Doesn't matter if it's improved or not, just a single Healthstone.
We also don't know the full details of just how lenient the system will be. We know it's likely to be remembering your glyphs and action bar setup, and it was specifically mentioned you could swap "While in a raid". We do not know what kind of circumstances allow you to swap however, the more lenient the system, the more possibilities there are.
I think we'd be better off waiting with a full discussion on the subject and it's implications until the patch that introduces it hits the public test realms.
buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
Well, as with everything, there are obvious degrees to which you can take any implemented feature. What your guild and your members decide is the most reasonable route, will then really decide how the feature affects you. As far as the raids we will run are concerned, I expect the specs to complement raiding, mainly because that IS what we're expecting from our guild. If and when a spec aside from that is required, maybe we'll cover it with gold from the guild bank.
But in all honesty, gold acquisition isn't very hard anymore, especially not with Dailies, and with further consumable restrictions put in place. With all that's going on, the Dual Spec is obviously a very welcome feature, and still solves more problems than it creates.
If you're raiding for progression, and min/max to any degree, then this is a positive change. If you don't, min/max enough, only enough to bring one viable raid spec, then this change is still huge for you. For the people doing 5 mans, for the people doing 10 mans, for the people doing 25 mans, this is a great change. Even for the Arena people, who are getting farmed by a team, and need to change things around. (Like a rogue going from Shadowstep to Mutilate to better adjust to an opposing team. You still queue at almost the same instant rate, and you have a different spec running into that next fight. Similar things might exist, depending on the arena meta game for things like Restokin vs. Feral talents such as Survival Instincts and Feral Charge)
At any rate, I'm excited for this change, and the only thing that saddens me is that it won't make release, or presumably anything sooner than Ulduar. Naxxramas has a LOT of this type of raid changing and that will make things a tad tougher, though obviously, they will still remain manageable.
Originally Posted by Caniki
Hey guys, I heard that Blizzard puts out these things called "patches" that contain "content"
- Despite what a lot of people seem to think, buffs do not fade when someone respecs currently. It was also not said at BlizzCon that (improved) buffs would fade when someone switches their spec using the new system.
Some buffs do, I'm currently IDS bot for our raids and it most certainly went away when I respecced to get CoH for a bear run. It may be that the code is already in to remove improved buffs on respecs or that certain buffs are handled on a case by case basis.
I think raiding ferals will have to go Feral Bear/Feral Cat(or moonkin!) as their two specs now.
It might be more effective to have your Feral Bear to convert to Resto Druid and have your Resto Shaman convert to Elemental/Enhancement Shaman to accomplish the same thing.
However, consider that in a 25-man raid you might well have 5 Death Knights/Warriors - which means that you probably won't need any more tanks and your Paladins/Druids would be more likely to spec dps/heal.
Some buffs do, I'm currently IDS bot for our raids and it most certainly went away when I respecced to get CoH for a bear run. It may be that the code is already in to remove improved buffs on respecs or that certain buffs are handled on a case by case basis.
That's interesting then, I'd expected that since Paladin buffs are more regulated (That is, they check if the caster is in your raid) they'd be the most strict in these rules as well.
This could also be a case of improved vs. specced into buffs however, I'm comparing between having or not having Improved Blessing of Wisdom here, in both cases you retain the basic buff, and if you try to overwrite with a (now weaker) version of the buff, you get a "A more powerful spell is already in effect" message.
It'd be interesting to test how other improved buffs work vs. speccing into an entirely new buff. I can't say I ever took notice of Kings or Sanctuary fading upon respeccing, but I'll keep an eye on that too next time I respec.
buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
Question regarding raid spec changing and loot. I imagine this may be an issue for some guilds when it comes to looting. A hybrid that is spec'd dps most of the time changes spec in order to heal on say 3/6 bosses in a particular raid. What kind of gear should this person get/be allowed to bid on...dps or healing? I imagine people will still need to declare a main spec for loot, which could rub some the wrong way if they are asked to fill a certain role many times that is different than their main spec. Although I do think the benefits outweigh these issues.
I can see offensive casters having specs for only single target damage, and builds that maximize mana efficiency, and ones that focus on area of effect abilities, and ones for survivability etc. It should be a very positive change.
Question regarding raid spec changing and loot. I imagine this may be an issue for some guilds when it comes to looting. A hybrid that is spec'd dps most of the time changes spec in order to heal on say 3/6 bosses in a particular raid. What kind of gear should this person get/be allowed to bid on...dps or healing? I imagine people will still need to declare a main spec for loot, which could rub some the wrong way if they are asked to fill a certain role many times that is different than their main spec. Although I do think the benefits outweigh these issues.
This is a guild-to-guild issue, not something that's really the purview of this discussion.
23:40:55> [Illidan Stormrage's] [Shear] was blocked by [Castille].
Our feeling is that any kind of cooldown just ends up punishing you for not being super organized, when the idea is to give you *more* flexibility.
Hey, can you provide the debuff in the boss this time?
You sure? Okay, let me switch.
No wait -- I think we have someone else coming.
Oh noes! Too late! Now I have to wait an hour.
Hey, want to go do BGs until our heroic healer gets here?
Okay, let me switch specs. Done.
Oh look, the healer got here early. We can go do that run now.
Uh... I'm in PvP mode now. Sorry.
Remember that the actual talent swapping isn't even the biggest part of the feature. Anyone with a little patience and a warlock can already hearth, respec and get resummoned. Cutting-edge guilds do it every fight. What we really want to offer is a way to remember what buttons you have on your bar for example.
I understand the concern coming from the pure dps classes. But those guys benefit an awful lot from a system like this too. Since dps is your primary concern most of the time, this gives you a way to have say a trash spec and a boss spec, or a cc spec and pewpew spec without hurting your performance on either. Most pure dps classes will still have more PvP vs. PvE builds too, and this lets you participate in both without jumping through a few hoops at the trainer.
Some threads have also pointed out the loss of gold moving out of the system, but really even at max cost, the amount spent on respecs wasn't much. We haven't inflated it to keep up with the rest of the economy for a couple of expansions.
We'll let you know more when we have more details worked out.
Personally I'll stick to having a pve and a pvp spec, possibly tailoring my pvp spec so that it still has some utility in pve. As an example on my warrior I will probably be prot/pve and arms/pvp with some tweaks to my pvp spec like taking stuff like trauma and imp. slam so that it can still be decent when I'm not tanking during an instance run. It will be harder on my priest as I will have disc/pve and disc/pvp specs but I will see if I can find some uses for my pvp spec in pve.
After all there's still the option of paying a respec for your offspec right before a raid so that you can switch back and forth during the raid and then speccing back after.
I'll still have a pvp spec there most of the times because of the freedom it will give, with my focus being mainly 10 mans and arena, I remember countless times where I turned down an instance run because I was pvp specced or I turned down some quick arena games because I had just done a couple heroics and had a raid later. I'm sure many people can relate.
How is this going to impact raiding with pure DPS classes versus hybrids? Blizzard has made clear that it wants all classes specced for DPS to be competitive with one another. Will it therefore be to the raid's advantage to take only a few pure DPS classes and fill the rest up with hybrids that can tank or heal as needed?
10/13/08, 7:24 AM
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