Optimization and the Dual Spec Feature - Page 2

Anedris · 10/13/08, 3:35 PM

Short answer: no. Bad pure DPSers will get benched. Bad hybrids will get benched. Good players will be taken on raids. You're always going to need DPSers so there will always be a place for pure DPSers, and hunters, rogues, mages, and warlocks all bring unique utilities and buffs that raids will want (misdirection, cloak of shadows, spell crit buff, soulstones, etc.).

Lord BEEF · 10/13/08, 3:50 PM

Originally Posted by Toabo

How is this going to impact raiding with pure DPS classes versus hybrids? Blizzard has made clear that it wants all classes specced for DPS to be competitive with one another. Will it therefore be to the raid's advantage to take only a few pure DPS classes and fill the rest up with hybrids that can tank or heal as needed?

No. Let's end this discussion here. This won't happen for a few reasons.

1) You don't need that many hybrids. A 25 man raid encounter will need likely 1-5 tanks per fight. And 5-9 healers.

That means even in extreme circumstances you'll need at most 4 hybrids that are tank capable, and 4 that are heal capable.

Worst case for dps-only classes is that there are only 11 spots for you to fight over. More likely, some of the tanks will be paladins or druids that if geared, can also heal which frees up more spots for dps-only classes. Likely half the raid will be dps-only.

2) Loot distribution favors a variety of classes. A raid that brings 12 druids will perform below a raid that brings a variety of classes because they'll fall behind on loot. This also goes for stacking any class. If you bring 12 rogues because they're top dps, you'll likely do less than a balanced raid because of loot progression.

3) Encounter design typically favors variety. For example you want a good mix of melee and ranged for fights like Kil'jaedan. Some hybrids can do both, but it requires a complete regearing.

Endahl · 10/13/08, 4:05 PM

Originally Posted by Lord BEEF

I can see offensive casters having specs for only single target damage, and builds that maximize mana efficiency, and ones that focus on area of effect abilities, and ones for survivability etc. It should be a very positive change.

Exactly. I haven't played my hunter as a main in a long while but I'm still thrilled about the option to switch specs between BM and whatever ends up producing the highest non-pet dps (MM?) in Wrath. Anti-pet raid bosses were always my main frustration while playing that class, dual speccing neatly dodges that problem. I'd imagine being able to switch between dot based dps and frontloaded direct damage as a warlock without actually going out to respec is valuable as well, nicely avoiding the issue of not having enough burst for add duty as Affliction or whatever.

And since Blizzard implied at Blizzon that there'd still be some poison-immune raid bosses, I suppose rogues could situationally use their secondary spec for one with poison talents removed, etc.

Lots of PvE applications beyond just the hybrid class ramifications.

pdpi · 10/13/08, 4:07 PM

Rogues bring tricks of the trade, warlocks bring soul wells and soul stones, Hunters have misdirection. All of these stack reasonably well, and are unique buffs above and beyond CC and the other shared buffs these classes bring. I confess I'm at a loss for unique mage utility, but at most there's one class lacking unique utility.

Douglas · 10/13/08, 4:18 PM

Originally Posted by Endahl

Exactly. I haven't played my hunter as a main in a long while but I'm still thrilled about the option to switch specs between BM and whatever ends up producing the highest non-pet dps (MM?) in Wrath.

To me, this is most enticing when you can make the spec swap work without a complete gear change. So I look at specs that have significant gear overlap.

If I were gonna leverage this on my hunter, one of my two specs would be one that provided Replenishment. So for me it'd be a BM/SV split.

If I were gonna leverage this on my paladin... it's interesting. Tankadins benefit more from attack power than from spell power, in terms of threat generation, but spell power is not useless for threat generation. So someone who switched between holy/prot would be exotic, but not completely insane -- they'd sure be capable of tanking PUGs, and maybe providing AOE-tanking when an extra AOE-tank is needed in real grown-up content. But even so, I perceive more gear overlap between prot and ret than I do between holy and anything else now. I'd probably pick a prot-centric tank spec and a ret spec that provides Replenishment as my two.

If I were gonna leverage this on my warlock, there's simply no question. I'd have a deep affliction debuff-centric spec (because I'm an affliction boy at heart, deep down) and a (probably) destruction single-target-DPS spec -- this second one would probably track warlock FOTM spec evolution.

My druid will clearly be switching back and forth between Boomkin and Tree of life. Even if we never get this system. The gear overlap between them due to the spellpower change just makes it too enticing. Already been playing with this on beta. Woot.

My Death Knight will probably use this to switch between a Blood-centric tanking spec and an Unholy-centric debuffs-and-pet-and-crazy-fun DPS/utility spec.

It is entirely possible that this whole thing will result in me raiding with fewer of my alts. I could actually see leaving my warlock out of things, and having my druid provide both my healing and ranged DPS, and either my paladin or my DK provide both my tanking and melee DPS. Today I switch among at least four alts as needed. I'm sure I'll bring them all to 80, but I'm not sure they'll all step into Naxxramas.

Beardstorm · 10/13/08, 4:25 PM

Nice idea. I hope it's implemented the same way as WAR does it's "tactics" in that you preset your specs and can swap freely after being XX seconds out of combat.

If it were to work as I mentioned above I think it'd be great as it lets makes Warriors (and other tanks) as viable off tanks as they can easily switch to decent DPS when needed (which to me makes Feral Druids the undisputed gods of ZA offtanking).

edit: I would think it also lets Blizzard design instances with more complexity as they can account for "quick swaps" in their design. Like in SWP it'd be far less annoying benching xxx class because the next fight needs "j" healers whereas the previous fight needed "k" healers.

solbergb · 10/13/08, 4:58 PM

Originally Posted by Douglas

If I were gonna leverage this on my paladin... it's interesting. Tankadins benefit more from attack power than from spell power, in terms of threat generation, but spell power is not useless for threat generation. So someone who switched between holy/prot would be exotic, but not completely insane --.

Yeah. I have a DPS character already, and my second "80" is a paladin. I'd like her to be prot mainly, with heal offspec.

The way it would work with gear is you'd concentrate your attack power+stam (which is spellpower too for protadins) on some pieces and spellpower+int/spirit on other pieces and swap gear when you swap specs. Ie, your primary "threat" pieces are swapped for your biggest "heal" pieces. This is similar to what I do with my mage when swapping equipment for capping hit on bosses or maxing stam/resil for survivability. My basic set has elements of both, but some pieces are extreme variants and they are swapped in for each other to make a new balance.

I'm not sure gearing a healadin offspec will be that hard. How many plate spellpower/int/spirit pieces are used by anyone but paladins anyway? If you are a maintank you'll still get a shot at the best tanking gear too.

As an alt running mostly 5 man or farm instances, no problem at all. If she becomes my main for progression raiding the retatin makes more sense as the offspec, as the raid seems to more often need a tank->dps swap than a tank->healer swap. But for a "fill in on a group quest/pug instance run" tank and healer is where it's at. DPS is easy.

Katria · 10/13/08, 5:27 PM

Originally Posted by Anedris

Short answer: no. Bad pure DPSers will get benched. Bad hybrids will get benched. Good players will be taken on raids. You're always going to need DPSers so there will always be a place for pure DPSers, and hunters, rogues, mages, and warlocks all bring unique utilities and buffs that raids will want (misdirection, cloak of shadows, spell crit buff, soulstones, etc.).

I've seen variations on this quote in all threads where pure DPS classes worry about their slot in raids. Sure good players will be taken...but given the immense utility hybrids now supply, shouldn't all good players be looking to re-roll hybrid?

My guild does mostly 10 man content. We have a core of great players, but when a top healer or tank is missing on raid night for some reason, it hurts. Now, with the consolidation of gear between specs for some classes and instant on-the-fly respecs, hybrids are looking better than ever.

My other main is a pally tank I stated as a hobby and who later became a core raider because we needed a pally tank for ZA. With ret DPS being competetive with rogue DPS for raiding, I'm finding it very difficult to justify taking my rogue as my main when we start WotLK content. What does the raid really get out of it? My rogue is 100% useless when the raid is lacking a tank or healer. In 2.x, when everyone is there, my rogue brings great dps to the table. In 3.x, rogue and ret pally bring similar dps (with pally providing better buffs), and I can instantly swap to tank if we need one as a pally.

Sure good players will get raid spots, as always. But if a good player is looking out for the good of the raid, why not have a hybrid as your main? Isn't that the best utility you can provide? This isn't an issue of good players being benched, but rather that certain classes are just BETTER for good players to be playing. If I'm recruiting for a DPS slot, and there are two candidates who are equal in ability to play, I'll take the hybrid...is there any good reason not to?

I guess what I'm saying is you are setting up a straw man argument...that good players of pure DPS classes are worried about being benched for noob hybrids. Really the issue is that hybrids are pretty much completely better than pure DPS, aside from the irreplaceable buffs those DPS classes may bring. Wow...tables have turned...wasn't that originally the problem with hybrid DPS?

Douglas · 10/13/08, 5:34 PM

Originally Posted by Katria

Sure good players will get raid spots, as always. But if a good player is looking out for the good of the raid, why not have a hybrid as your main? Isn't that the best utility you can provide?

Certainly not if everyone else is doing exactly the same thing.

No hybrid brings an ability like Misdirection or "Tricks of the Trade". If you've already got a dozen druids, which adds more utility, a thirteenth druid or the raid's first rogue?

Do these changes mean that more of the good players will play hybrids? Sure -- even if they couldn't respec to tank or heal, some good players will spec Boomkin just because it's viable in a way it never really was before, and they can do so without gimping allies.

Do these changes mean all good players will? Nah.

In fact, we might see an interesting feedback loop here. If fewer rogues are brought along, who will play them? Probably the players who can bring the most raw ability to playing the rogue class, no? Which means we might still be seeing rogues comfortably at the top of raid DPS charts when everything settles down.

Krag · 10/13/08, 8:12 PM

Originally Posted by pdpi

Rogues bring tricks of the trade, warlocks bring soul wells and soul stones, Hunters have misdirection. All of these stack reasonably well, and are unique buffs above and beyond CC and the other shared buffs these classes bring. I confess I'm at a loss for unique mage utility, but at most there's one class lacking unique utility.

The first mage in the raid will bring Winter's Chill/Improved Scorch which is 10% crit for all spell dps. Subsequent mages may bring Focus Magic for a 3% crit buff to another spell caster (that will add 3% crit for the mage himself with very high uptime).

Anedris · 10/13/08, 8:38 PM

The flaw in the "hybrids are better in every way!" argument is that once you no longer need healers or tanks (and no encounter is going to reasonably require more than about 10-11 healer/tanks, leaving 14-15 spots to be filled by people who will never be needed to tank or heal), hybrids aren't actually better in any way. And the non-hybrids bring a number of skills that a raid will not want to run without.

A raid without rogues, mages, warlocks, and hunters will be gimped. A raid suffers no disadvantage from bringing along rogues, mages, warlocks, and hunters.

Chul · 10/13/08, 9:52 PM

From "Player > Class"? I don't see it.

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

Definitely agree that skill is nebulous. Our point is that previously a feral cat or a ret paladin of any level of skill had no real hope of beating a rogue with moderate or bad skill.

We absoutely agree that the 4 pure dps classes (rogue, warlock, mage, hunter) run the risk of losing raid spots if their dps is sub-par.

If everything else is truly equal (gear, skill, etc.) then the pure dps class should beat the hybrid. If a raid chooses to run without rogues, mages, warlock or hunters, they should expect their overall dps to be lower. You can quote me on that. But you're not going to beat them by as much as you did before, and there are going to be situations where things go just right for the paladin or druid and they will be on the top of the chart. We purposely deflated hybrid dps *a lot* before Lich King. The hybrids lost a lot of utility with some of their awesome buffs though, so we wanted to make up for that with dps.

Emphasis mine

I see this system as quite interesting. You have hybrids who can change roles which helps your raid, but with the cost of doing slighly less DPS and having to potentially have multiple sets of gear. Pure classes do slightly more DPS, and since their buffs can be superior than hybrids (i.e. TSA > UR), they can allow hybrids to spec around them if they get the chance thereby furthering the DPS of the raid.

Nemantopia · 10/13/08, 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by Krag

The first mage in the raid will bring Winter's Chill/Improved Scorch which is 10% crit for all spell dps. Subsequent mages may bring Focus Magic for a 3% crit buff to another spell caster (that will add 3% crit for the mage himself with very high uptime).

Ignoring the silliness of 'mages bring no utility to a raid' comment and turning into a list:

ONE Mage [just one] brings:
1) +Int buff, which is +Mana, +crit, and +mana regen [regen varies by caster]
2) Food and Water...you know, the 'vending machine' crack?
3) As Krag said, the +Crit from either tree and potential for Focus Magic [an arc/fire mage could bring both feasibly]
4) Frost mage brings the new WE for raid-mana regen, affecting all casters
5) Polymorph and AoE/Frost-Nova. Grouped because this qualifies as 'trash/add control', and Polymorph alone gets groups
6) Decursing, which has now sadly been added to just about everyone with a cleanse *cry*, but should still be considered more efficient in curse-only cleanse encounters to save healer mana
7) At least the basic amplify/dampen for fights with no/horrendous-amounts of magic [admittedly this comes up far less often, but Gruul the Dragonkiller, anyone?, and is sadly often forgotten]

Two Mages bring the entire list in spades.

Vaccine · 10/14/08, 6:25 AM

Originally Posted by Kortar

It might be more effective to have your Feral Bear to convert to Resto Druid and have your Resto Shaman convert to Elemental/Enhancement Shaman to accomplish the same thing.

However, consider that in a 25-man raid you might well have 5 Death Knights/Warriors - which means that you probably won't need any more tanks and your Paladins/Druids would be more likely to spec dps/heal.

This is a very interesting point of view. Are you assuming this change will make guilds stop using Prot Paladins and Feral Druids if they take DPS with a tank subspec?

Don't really think its any more effective to swap a healer to dps and a tank to healing than just swapping a tank to dps.

Mideci · 10/14/08, 6:31 AM

Honestly, the number of guilds where this is going to be used for excessive min-maxing is, well, minimal. I'm sure Nihilum, SK, and, perhaps and EJ might use it for that. But I can't see the top guilds on Stormrage doing it to be honest. They are serious guilds and qualify as hardcore, but having their ferals take feral tank and feral dps when the dps difference is going to be a few percent it appears and that means the druids will have to spend gold for every step into PVP (assuming the PVP spec is radically different) seems like something more onerous than they'd mandate.

Also, the game appears to be moving away from razor's edge kind of execution. It appears both Brutallus (for a gear-limited guild) and M'uru-type fights are just not on the the table. You're going to get lighter gear checks like Vashj Phase 2 where, yes, there's a dps check but, no, it's not a hard one like Brutallus. You're going to get execution checks like Archimonde-lite where, yes, people need to not screw up, but nothing like M'uru.

Now, that said, hybrids might be asked to use both specs for hybridizing in raids. I mean, heck, we have a prot pally who's a terrific healer. Fights often benefit from more or fewer healers and often require a differing tank count. The guy also doesn't PVP. He's a perfect case for a holy/prot dual spec. And since he can farm in his prot spec, he's not going to complain about it either. I'm sure your guild has a similar example, but I raise the point of an easy case for illustrative purposes.

My suspicion is an awful lot of us are going to take a raid spec and a PVP spec and enjoy the heck out of it. That's why we demanded this so vehemently. And it's pretty obvious that Ghostcrawler, et al. heard what we said here and elsewhere in deciding not just to implement this, but also how.

Druid-tankin · 10/14/08, 9:38 AM

How awsome will it be to skip talents such as imp. motw for my tank spec (if buffs last!)
this would free up 2 talent point i can invest on the bear department!!!

play around with the talents if you think about it like that.

druid talents

Valerys · 10/14/08, 9:48 AM

I'm pretty sure Blizzard does not intend you to have a special talent spec only for buffing. If buffs don't disappear now when you respec out of them, that most likely will be fixed by Blizzard.

Jerry · 10/14/08, 9:52 AM

Originally Posted by Druid-tankin

How awsome will it be to skip talents such as imp. motw for my tank spec (if buffs last!)
this would free up 2 talent point i can invest on the bear department!!!

I think it's the main reason why improved buff should not stay when switching specs. By accepting the scenario you describe, all druids will be more or less forced to not have imp. motw on a spec and have imp. motw on another spec. Because two talent points matter to be the best in your role, whatever it is. This would be even more serious for priests and divine spirit, as the talent is further down the tree and requires more investment.

I think that either imp buffs should be removed when switching spec or the talent be changed before dual-spec feature becomes a reality. The first seems very likely as the game already can remove buffs when someone leaves the raid.

Leaflock · 10/14/08, 1:31 PM

Originally Posted by Katria

Sure good players will get raid spots, as always. But if a good player is looking out for the good of the raid, why not have a hybrid as your main? Isn't that the best utility you can provide? This isn't an issue of good players being benched, but rather that certain classes are just BETTER for good players to be playing. If I'm recruiting for a DPS slot, and there are two candidates who are equal in ability to play, I'll take the hybrid...is there any good reason not to?

Yes. Werebeef posted it above you.

I think part of the problem is that "utility" has become a nebulously-defined, overused term for overstating the value of one class (usually someone else's) over another. Yes, in BC, "utility" was raid buffs-- the tradeoff that hybrids had to justify their lower dps in raids. Now, with roughly equivalent dps and overlapping buffs, there's a much wider variety of possible raid compositions that get you what you need. And yet, the term utility is still being used to describe the notion that every individual player in a guild, beyond the minimal number to supply buffs, has to somehow "bring something to the raid" beyond playing their class well and being situationally aware.

On top of that, utility is now also used to describe the fact that hybrids can respec for additional roles. It's worth noting that by this definition, an equally class-balanced raid is already 60% hybrids. The benefit of exceeding this ratio is hazy at best, since raid-stacking is no longer necessary, and the negatives have already been pretty well laid-out in this thread and elsewhere.

Min-maxing is one thing, but there's a limit to it--beyond that you get the kind of theoretical min-maxing that doesn't actually confer any real benefits. I seem to remember Nihilum (the druid class leader, no less) railing against resto druids back in Black Temple, claiming they were completely useless. And yet, plenty of guilds cleared BT with resto druids without issue. Plenty of guilds also use melee dps successfully on Felmyst and Twins, etc., despite it being suboptimal. WotLK is lowering the optimization ceiling further.

And finally, though I've made this point before: the hypothetical "choose one" scenario is absurd. If you actually have two candidates of equal ability, why would any guild recruiter turn one of them away? I know in my guild, the only time that might happen with a truly skilled app is if we already have regular skilled players filling those spots and the app is unsatisfied with the amount of raid time they'd see, in which case they end up making the decision themselves. If you're playing "2 apps 1 spot" with players that are of a high caliber, you have some short-sighted recruiters.

sovelis41 · 10/14/08, 3:07 PM

This isn't an issue of good players being benched, but rather that certain classes are just BETTER for good players to be playing.

While your point is valid, some people just plain enjoy the class they're playing, and that is what Blizzard is trying to accomplish. Good players playing the class they like and the raid not seeing any detriment. In TBC you might ask one of your 3 pro rogues to switch to shaman because of the huge benefit, but for WotLK this (supposedly) won't be necessary at all. Utility classes are dead, every class has their own stuff to bring to a raid. Some might have a bit more, but everyone has SOMETHING.

Kjallstrom · 10/31/08, 7:59 PM

Jumping back to the original question about dual-spec, my plan is to use this for my "serious" spec and my "fun" spec. I don't PvP much (and when I do, I'm not too serious about it), so I don't feel the need to separate these into PvE and PvP specs. The "serious" spec will be combat (replaced occasionally with respecs for weapon specialization, if I get significant upgrades), and the "fun" spec I'll flip between Hemo and Mutilate depending on what I feel like doing and what weapons I have. The latter is what I'll use for 5-mans and soloing, most of the time. Deep down, I like the playstyle of Subtlety best, even though I know it's more appropriate for PvP. It just feels... roguier, to me.

Do we know what happens to talented abilities on action bars when you toggle the dual spec feature? I'm hoping for something more like greying out than mysterious disappearance.

Glodd · 11/12/08, 8:57 AM

I'll likely have BM and MM as my 2 specs. Right now, though, I'm doing much better DPs as MM than BM. I have a feeling that this might change once I have 10 more talent points to play with at 80 though.

Enova · 11/12/08, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Kjallstrom

Jumping back to the original question about dual-spec, my plan is to use this for my "serious" spec and my "fun" spec. I don't PvP much (and when I do, I'm not too serious about it), so I don't feel the need to separate these into PvE and PvP specs.

While the hybrids are complaining that they'll need to use both specs for PVE, I don't see any reason why a prot pally with a PVP ret or holy off spec, for instance, would do any worse than the current situation of being forced to do something else in a single tank fight with a prot spec, or being benched for the fight, or having to take two round trips to the paladin trainer.

Originally Posted by Glodd

I'll likely have BM and MM as my 2 specs. Right now, though, I'm doing much better DPs as MM than BM. I have a feeling that this might change once I have 10 more talent points to play with at 80 though.

I think it will have more to do with the extra talent points that the pets gain over 10 levels. Speaking of which, it'd be interesting to know if pet talents (for non-exotic pets, of course) will automatically switch as well while switching specs.

footloop · 11/12/08, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Enova

I think it will have more to do with the extra talent points that the pets gain over 10 levels. Speaking of which, it'd be interesting to know if pet talents (for non-exotic pets, of course) will automatically switch as well while switching specs.

My memory is a little hazy, but I believe in beta it would just drop the top four points in your pet's talent tree whenever you respecced.

ZeroWashu · 11/12/08, 4:33 PM

Originally Posted by Karit

I plan on speccing my Druid feral and resto to get the most use out of my character and provide flexibility to the raid. I think WotLK is going to definitely be the age of the hybrid class. Guilds won't have to have many players sitting on the bench waiting for thier class/spec to be needed either. Blizzard really continues to impress me with thier intuitiveness, and willingness to change the game in favor of the players playing it.

From my perspective it is almost natural for a spell power hybrid to cover both dps and healing. This is the route I will follow with my druid who is currently spec'd to boomkin. Per request I will also have a restoration spec. This should be satisfactory for simple 5 mans and even off healing raid level encounters. Where it gets touchy for me is my gemming does not specifically support healing. I am light on spirit, heavier towards hit and crit. The same holds true for my priest, I can cover both shadow and holy pretty much with similar gear. I can see a feral spec'd to both cat and bear separately if talent points really change up that much, more likely it would serve if the glyphs change as well.

Now the case changes totally for my enhancement shaman. Unless I just build a second set of gear, rolling for off-spec, I am very limited as there is little to no interchangeability with elemental or restoration. As such for a predicament such as her I will focus more on a pvp spec where I take talents I like for personal survival versus raid benefit.

Are glyphs to be in this dual spec feature? If not that may put a damper on it. Gems I can overcome for the most part but only minor glyphs seem to be unaffected by talent choices.

So the only issues I see are in order of importance
1. Gems
2. Glyphs; I do not have a current link to a blue post covering these
3. Enchants
4. Gear