What do you consider a challenge and what do you not?
Personally I consider it a challenge if I was at limits of what I can do, and in Naxxramas I have been at my limits several times. In both 10 and 25-man. One thing I do not consider that is "easy".
the top 1% of each realm might as well just pug it because there's no real need to optimize anything for players of that skill given the content's current difficulty.
Mission accomplished. They want raiding to be much like Battlegrounds in that you can just jump in and destroy some bosses (as opposed to players) for an hour or so.
Making all 4 tank classes equally viable, making all 4 healer classes equally viable, making all raid (de)buffs covered with formerly suboptimal group comps were all directed towards the ability to form a raid based on which players you like, as opposed to which classes they play.
Of course, this wouldn't really fly if the content wasn't BG-esque in difficulty either.
Yes, the kind of tuning we see now does indeed reflect a change in their design decisions, but I think that the change has to come from these top-tier raiding guilds instead of the other way around.
Actually, I dont mind if people cleared Naxx in 3 days or in 2 weeks after the launch. It was obvious they would do it fast, and they did. What does that mean? Well, the question should be: What does that mean for them? They cleared all content, they have more or less nothing challenging left before 3.1 hits. I do! I still have to clear Naxx, I still have a lot of content before me.
If every dedicated wow-player would reach the "game over"-screen within 3 days, that would be catastrophic and the end of this mmo. If some very, very excessive, aggressive over-the-top players with years of experience, a perfect team, a perfect lead and the right amount of time do, that means absolutely nothing. Hell, they killed Kil'Jaeden within 11 raid days if you subtract the weeks of closed gates, and sunwell was the absolutely hardest instance of all times, everyone who has been there pre 3.0 knows that. A "normal" guild cannot and will never compete. It does not change a lot. Your local "server first"guild will be a bit faster. Your local "casual raider" guild will see more bosses in less time. That's about it. Some people will moan or even leave because the game is "too easy" pve-wise, but these people have been there before and always will be. Cleared content always seems easy, and content WILL be cleared sooner or later. This time, it's "sooner". We'll see what 3.1 brings.
People are forgetting how terrible TBC "entry level" raiding and even heroic 5 man was. When you were in greens or partial blues, doing heoirc 5 man was scary. And the horror stories coming out from the raids trying Gruul, High King, and Magtheridon was so bad everyone stuck to raiding Kara.
Even Kara wasn't exactly that easy, not if you had just hit lv 70.
Back in the old(er) days, I farmed the hell out of Scholo, Strat and especially Dire Maul for MC.
Likewise, I made sure I had all the important questlines in TBC to pick up my tanking gear and sorted out my Cen Exp reputation as quickly as possible to get the imba Earthwarden. I really do not see a problem with requiring people to at least do the level 80 instances a bit before stepping into raiding.
Mind you, there's a huge gap between 'must farm more and those damn boots never drop!' and 'hey, I didn't upgrade my greens from 70 to 80'. It seems like Blizzard aimed Naxx at those who hit 80 and want to raid instantly. That's their choice, but I personally did not dislike preparing a bit for it. The reputation rewards and zone-wide drops instead of boss-restricted drops help. PvP gear and crafted BoE blues help.
But currently, who exactly are hitting 80 in the first two days? People covered in Sunwell gear. It's most definitely not the green-clad heroes who managed to play an hour or so every other day. It's well possible those do need to gear up a bit in the level 80 5mans or even the heroics before they'll manage to clear a Naxx-wing.
Ignorance can be solved with a book. Stupidity requires a shotgun and a shovel.
Anectodal experiance here I'm afraid, but want to put my 2c in.
We're a 6/6 sunwell guild pre-wotlk, but went casual and stopped properly raiding before 3.0 just doing pug BT/SWP with all of our casuals and some out of guild friends so they could see the content. WotLK hit and we had a lot of rerolling, changing of main specs and loads of casual players coming back (going from 28 online to 55 online).
We took our first 10 man group to Naxx on tuesday (before the reset, as we're EU). Everyone was in levelling blues and the odd dungeon blue. We managed to do Spider wing, and Plague wing up to and including Heigan. We couldn't kill Loatheb as we didn't have the dps (hit enrage timer 4 times in a row), Patchwerk (tanks getting 2 rounded), Razuvious (healers couldnt keep up, and our strat was slightly off - prolly couldve got him, but late by then). Every boss we killed was a close call with the tank getting smashed from here to hell and back
We spent all of wednesday doing two groups for heroics, upgrading our gear (did about 15 of em - a group of Prot war, UH DK, Enh shaman, Resto Druid and FF mage is remarkably loot efficient - got enchants on the gear we had). Came back on Weds evening, cleared all 4 wings with few problems. Thats the difference gearing up makes.
Now for your casual player, you're not likely to be doing 15 heroics in a day, more like 1 or 2. Thats 2 weeks roughly of gearing up before they're likely to be ready to start making headway into Naxx. Bearing in mind these guys won't know the fights either (unlike 9/10 of our group who did it for many months pre-tbc) so this content should have a reasonable lifespan for your average player.
We tried Malygos last night after killing Saph and KT, and found we couldnt keep up with the DPS and that ourmages didnthave enough hp to survive the vortex, so we're going to farm heroics again tonight and go back on saturday to try again. In my opinion, as a freshly levelled DK, the tuning is nigh on perfect for a group in 5 man/heroic blues with the odd epic piece. Regardless of the ultra-hardcore guilds pushing through and doing it in 3 days, those 3 days are probably a month or more for your average player which I don't think is unreasonable.
It strikes me that we don't yet have a proper means of judging if Naxx is anywhere near where Blizzard wanted it. If guilds that avoided KT and Vashj when the attunement requirements were removed are skipping heroics to jump straight into Naxx because they don't need the gear and are thinking about trying Sartharion with 2 or 3 drakes up before Ulduar (with presumably much more difficult content) hits then it's probably easier than they intended. From comments like Tel's and anecdotal evidence from the guilds with enough 80's on my server, this doesn't look likely.
People are forgetting how terrible TBC "entry level" raiding and even heroic 5 man was. When you were in greens or partial blues, doing heoirc 5 man was scary. And the horror stories coming out from the raids trying Gruul, High King, and Magtheridon was so bad everyone stuck to raiding Kara.
Heroic 5-player dungeons in TBC were difficult for most. I'm somebody who never played vanilla, and started playing in late summer of 2007. I hit 70 in june of 2008, only to watch my guild fall apart within a couple weeks, because we still weren't clearing kara and would have wipefests in all but the easiest heroics. But there are a lot more people playing in guilds like that than guilds like the one I ended up in, who *still* didn't down archie or the second half of BT pre-nerf, let alone guilds that saw sunwell for more than trash farming.
I went back and did some of those heroics in the T4-5/badge gear I wore into BT with a bunch of my guildies, and they were mostly easy. In fact, I tanked a heroic ramps run on my druid who was still 69 in a run of guildy alts, with only the healer being decently geared, and we cleared it with no issues (my first tank, so no experience tanking hard fights). When you know exactly how to beat a dungeon, and have farmed it on geared characters, it's not that hard to go in and clear it. But heroic anything was tough when I was a new 70 with no gear and no experience. And even with some decent gear on, I could still wipe easily if I ran with players who didn't pay attention. Pugging heroics was always dicey if I wasn't with a geared up tank and healer (i.e. no more CC than my polymorph required).
One thing that hasn't been said is that there are two ways of making an encounter difficult. You can make it require skill, or you can make it require gear.
Making things require gear is one way to keep guilds like 25November from steamrolling your content, but it's inherently less interesting to farm a bunch of heroics until XYZ crap drops 25 times than it is to learn a difficult encounter that can be done, in principle, with mediocre gear.
But a guild like 25November has it so far over most of us in the skill department, that they will still rollover a skill fight very quickly, unless it is so hard as to be a unbeatable for 95% of the raiding population.
I think it's a huge improvement that you don't need to grind forever to raid in this expansion, that gear to down the entry level raid is available on the way to, or right after reaching 80. No need to pay thousands of gold for the best crafted items or farm battlegrounds/arena/rep for weeks in order to down bosses in kara without help from sugar-daddies who've already farmed it, or having your whole raid know strategies cold from farming it in beta.
So the real question is: how much skill is required to clear Naxx? Enough to interest the decent casual raider for a bit? Somebody like me who never got through BT before it was nerfed? If so, even if it's fairly trivial to the sunwell guilds, I think Blizz has done their job.
Thus, even though its been a week, I can't imagine anyone at level 80 already (which for this board seems to be "expected") thinks of it as even close to notmal.
I hope nobody takes this comment for granted, and I wish some of these "Top Guilds"(tm) would realize this. Take a look at the people running around Dalaran and Ironforge/Org on your server. People still come up to me and say "Grats on 80!" and "holy crap where did you get that gear? you're doing naxx already?!" I push my own guildies to get to 80 quickly, but that's the kind of guild we are certainly not the raiding-band Naxx 10 is aimed to challenge.
Once again, if pre-3.0 KJ killing guilds (hell even pre 3.0 Kalecgos killers) are even challenged (in the >10 or so wipes sense) by non-achievement current raiding content (Sarth with 3 drakes down, Naxx 10, etc), then "Kara Guilds" would be screwed. How many hours 25Nov spent on 3 Drake Sarth would be good to know.
You pay for the whole chair, but you only need the edge.
I just really don't understand what makes people post things like this. Is it really that hard to understand the new way Blizzard chose? Do they really think they are sending Blizzard message? Or is this just a way to be cool and interesting? Why not just enjoy the good stuff wotlk brings? There really is a lot of it.
Your thoughts?
They are idiots. Plain and simple. They fail to understand that the new Naxx is an entry level raid. They make posts like that to create drama and draw attention to themselves. They crave said attention. This game isn't designed for that small percentage of people that can clear raids quickly anymore. Casuals didn't destroy anything. "Hardcore" guilds are the ones that caused the changes Blizzard is making. If they wouldn't min/max to such a high degree more people would see content (though, Blizzard's tuning of tBC played a large role there also). I am not saying min/maxing isn't a smart move, but some of these guilds to it to such a degree that WoW is almost like a second job. WoW is a game, not a job.
That said, I do hope they scale the future instances up in difficulty. Naxx should teach noobs how to raid and the next serious should teach them more but not by keeping the training wheels on. If they can't manage to "skill up" they don't need to be downing future bosses.
But currently, who exactly are hitting 80 in the first two days? People covered in Sunwell gear. It's most definitely not the green-clad heroes who managed to play an hour or so every other day. It's well possible those do need to gear up a bit in the level 80 5mans or even the heroics before they'll manage to clear a Naxx-wing.
I agree. Those guilds complaining fail to understand this.
Why all this hate against them because they play more than what's healthy?
It's a game, it's supposed to be fun. It's even supposed to be fun for the top guilds.
Naxx isn't an entry level raid if it's the only thing to raid.
Maybe that's the real failure of Blizzard, they should perhaps have released something difficult with the release.
Is the current content easy? I think that question is easily answered with a resounding "YES!" But is that a bad thing? Probably not. Remember that these are supposed to be the equivalent of Molten Core bosses -- and they are arguably already more difficult than anything in MC ever was.
Guilds who are in sunwell gear get minimal upgrades from heroics and should be able to clear the 10 mans with no problem, and everything in the 25 mans other than Patchwerk with no problem. (I expect to see much weeping and gnashing of teeth over Patchwerk once casuals start in on him -- he's much harder than the 4 horsemen now).
Where Blizzard's failure was at was with Burning Crusade. The entry content was over tuned and too difficult and, because of the intense mat farming requirements, only accessible to a very small % of the population.
Many people quit BC until the patch came in that tuned tier 4 and 5 content to a reasonable level. (Although Kael was never balanced well and was too difficult for his position in progression). Most of the bosses in the tier 6 content were too easy, with the proper gear most tier 6 bosses are as easy or easier than current Naxx bosses.
WOTLK will fail if Bliz takes too long to release content patches with harder content. The current content will not last long, especially with the itemization homogenization making getting geared up much quicker and easier. They need to have a new content patch in by late January/early February at the latest.
Why all this hate against them because they play more than what's healthy?
It's a game, it's supposed to be fun. It's even supposed to be fun for the top guilds.
Naxx isn't an entry level raid if it's the only thing to raid.
Maybe that's the real failure of Blizzard, they should perhaps have released something difficult with the release.
Even if it was just one boss.
Just... no. It's obvious that it is the first of several raid instances, making it the entry-level raid instance of this expansion. It's not a hard concept to grasp.
Also, to clarify, the hate against them is not because of how much they play, but against their failures to grasp the intent of the instance and desire to needlessly stir up drama with posts like the two from NA and 25thNovember. Shit is embarrassing, and really just reeks of attention-depraved children.
If you wanna look at this from a monetary point of view:
10 million > ~200 ?
Not that I look at this as Blizzard trying to make more money, but more-so they're trying to let MORE people that play their game ACTUALLY play their game.
BTW: No I didn't thoroughly read through what seemed to be 9 pages of people complaining, simply skimmed!
I am not saying min/maxing isn't a smart move, but some of these guilds to it to such a degree that WoW is almost like a second job. WoW is a game, not a job.
To be fair, 25Nov is playing for sponserships so it is very much a "job" for them to clear this content as quickly as possible to show they are "the best." There are real life dollars at stake in one form or another. For everyone else, this isn't the case. No one is faulting them for that, just don't go blabbing about how this content is too easy and chide Blizzard for attempting to open up a fun part of the game to more and more people.
You pay for the whole chair, but you only need the edge.
So a week ago, rightfully so, people were pointing out that it was easy to beat the content and that the real challenge was only killing Sartharion with drakes up, but it seems they've done that already too(see websites linked before), which with only one week of gearing up, seems to also be a bit undertuned. While I don't specifically think it's a bad thing, I think they should have overtuned this kind of achievement, so it could only be done later, when you actually outgeared the stuff(like solo onyxia, even though they removed that I believe).
Well there are a couple of things you need to consider:
1) Two weeks of running between 5-10 heroics every day
2) Two weeks of full clears of 10- and 25-man naxx (for a total of 160+ epics) edit: It might be even more than this, closer to 250+ epics. Just ballpark math
3) Two weeks of full clears of 10- and 25-man Malygos
4) Two weeks of 10-man Sarth
5) One week of 25-man Sarth
That's a lot of gear. Naxx is such a big instance that clearing it literally showers you in new epics. Blizzard probably could tune Sarth+3 to be unmanageable with an absolutely 100% kitted raid (Sunwell was like that in parts) but frankly I'm not sure if it would have been a good use of their time. All indications are that it is an appropriate challenge.
I don't know what is going on other servers, but I don't think this is just a case of the ultra elite like Nov. 25 clearing the content. On Boulderfist, an alliance PUG killed Sartharion and has now cleared most of Naxx. Boulderfist is a server where the server first kill typicall happens 4-6 months after the world first, this isn't a PUG of really hardcore players. I wasn't in the kills since worked has owned my ability to level, but I know most of the people in them, they are a good representation of more typical raiders. These people were not in full sunwell, only about 8-10 of the raid were from a guild that made it to muru before 3.0. I think this conversation can begin to move past "while, Nov 25 is doing this as a job and will do whatever it takes and already killed it". You are starting to see now that the raid content really provides no challenge to anyone.
I personally think this is going to be just as big a mistake as the overtuned content at BC release, but the final verdict is yet to come.
To be fair, 25Nov is playing for sponserships so it is very much a "job" for them to clear this content as quickly as possible to show they are "the best." There are real life dollars at stake in one form or another. For everyone else, this isn't the case. No one is faulting them for that, just don't go blabbing about how this content is too easy and chide Blizzard for attempting to open up a fun part of the game to more and more people.
To be fair? Who cares. Find another job. No one is forcing them to play a game for money, they do that of their own accord. This game isn't here so they can play it for money. Blizzard makes it so Blizzard can make money, not so others can play it for profit.
No hate because they are skilled, that they are. All the hate is because they are acting like 12 year old children with their posts that are made purely for the drama/attention whoring value.
Naxx isn't an entry level raid if it's the only thing to raid.
Maybe that's the real failure of Blizzard, they should perhaps have released something difficult with the release.
Are you stupid? There are two other raids that can be done other than Naxx are there not? Mal and Sarth? You know that Blizzard intends on adding in more raids before the next expansion. So if you intend to troll, do it elsewhere.
I don't know what is going on other servers, but I don't think this is just a case of the ultra elite like Nov. 25 clearing the content. On Boulderfist, an alliance PUG killed Sartharion and has now cleared most of Naxx. Boulderfist is a server where the server first kill typicall happens 4-6 months after the world first, this isn't a PUG of really hardcore players.
Did you miss that, that is the reason Blizzard tuned Naxx the way they did? They want Naxx to be an entry level raid. I also highly doubt guilds on your server killed Attunmen 4-6 months after the world first Attunmen kill.
I don't know what is going on other servers, but I don't think this is just a case of the ultra elite like Nov. 25 clearing the content. On Boulderfist, an alliance PUG killed Sartharion and has now cleared most of Naxx. Boulderfist is a server where the server first kill typicall happens 4-6 months after the world first, this isn't a PUG of really hardcore players. I wasn't in the kills since worked has owned my ability to level, but I know most of the people in them, they are a good representation of more typical raiders. These people were not in full sunwell, only about 8-10 of the raid were from a guild that made it to muru before 3.0. I think this conversation can begin to move past "while, Nov 25 is doing this as a job and will do whatever it takes and already killed it". You are starting to see now that the raid content really provides no challenge to anyone.
I personally think this is going to be just as big a mistake as the overtuned content at BC release, but the final verdict is yet to come.
The wrongheadedness of this post indicates to me that you either didn't read the thread or aren't paying attention. I sincerely doubt whatever PUG you're talking about (but didn't participate in, natch) cleared Sartharion with the drakes up.
I'd also like to point out that anyone who is 80 already levelled at a rate of more than 1 level a day since the launch of the expansion and thus any group composed of such people is very seriously self-selected for the hardcore, "guild that made it to muru before 3.0" or not.
To be fair? Who cares. Find another job. No one is forcing them to play a game for money, they do that of their own accord. This game isn't here so they can play it for money. Blizzard makes it so Blizzard can make money, not so others can play it for profit.
No hate because they are skilled, that they are. All the hate is because they are acting like 12 year old children with their posts that are made purely for the drama/attention whoring value.
Whoa there, I'm on your side. You pretty much restated my post that you quoted. WoW being a job for them doesn't in any way justify their comments, you are 100% correct. I'm just stating the fact that this IS a job for these guys, and they will go to nigh-unbearable ends to accomplish world firsts, but most of us just wish they would do it with a little more class. Anyone that bases their server's performance or the state of the raiding game off of anything they do is naive to say the least.
You pay for the whole chair, but you only need the edge.
Whoa there, I'm on your side. You pretty much restated my post that you quoted. WoW being a job for them doesn't in any way justify their comments, you are 100% correct. I'm just stating the fact that this IS a job for these guys, and they will go to nigh-unbearable ends to accomplish world firsts, but most of us just wish they would do it with a little more class. Anyone that bases their server's performance or the state of the raiding game off of anything they do is naive to say the least.
Sorry, bad day at work. I was skimming when I read your post. Didn't catch your full intent till I re read. Apologizes.
I for one am looking forward to Naxx. I am an ex-hardcore raider that still has that hardcore mentality but is in a extremely casual raiding guild. We are mostly old friends from a pre-tBC guild that raided MC. They rerolled when the guild died in tBC and I ended up making it to the top guild and burned out, joining them Horde side after I re rolled. I enjoyed the atmosphere of the 40 mans, where I as a new recruit was taught the ins and outs. I get to do that to our new raiders now.
As many people have stated, the content was not aimed towards top end players. I think Blizzard did an amazing job with the achievements though, making some of them incredibly tough and even providing a nice reward for players who finish them all. We've now cleared all WotlK content and are working on the achievements, it's a much more fun experience than the constant farming of a boss you've had down for months in my opinion.
I think it's funny that people seem surprised by this. To me, the only surprise was that they leveled a full guild in two days when I was under the impression they were all rerolling (I misunderstood the original announcement for the new guild). We discussed this easy content two months ago on this very forum in the Naxxramas thread. The consensus seemed to be that people were looking forward to easy content and having a bit of a break from the pressures of high end raiding. Of course, that was before we knew about the 3.0 Sunwell nerf, but over time and now that I have leveled to 80 and been able to raid immediately, I'd have to agree. It's fun being able to both raid and run 5 mans for upgrades, not having to simply put raids on hold until we gear up to an arbitrary level. Although I will admit that the I am disappointed by how the reputation gear is for the most point pointless to farm, and the five man "tier" is almost completely obsolete.
The bigger question is going to be if they can release the T8 content in a timely enough manor for this to not be repeated instantly, and what sort of reasonable restrictions can we expect? The encounters in Naxx are challenging, this isn't 15 tank and spanks, the entire construct wing will shred undergeared and unprepared groups; those that can't coordinate will be tested throughout the instance. The only reason they are "easy" is because there is no measurable gear check. If Ulduar is three or more months away, the top guilds will have most of their players in best in slot gear and ready to steamroll any potential gear check once again. They regulated this in Sunwell with the gates system, and of course Brutallus was a gear check for those that hadn't farmed BT for 6 months. But in reality, Sunwell got steamrolled as well, no boss lasted even a week. So it's reasonable to expect a repeat once again.
So to me, the better question is not if T7 is too easy, it's a moot point now either way. Enjoy what we have for what it is. The question is, how should T8 and T9 scale in order to present both a reasonable challenge to most guilds (if not the top 0.1%, then the top 10%). Do you put a harsh gear check at the entrance to keep out those that haven't farmed enough? Do you put an arbitrary resist cockblock or structured gates system to stop quick clearing? Trade channel pugs will be clearing Naxx by Christmas. Should those groups reach a dead end with Ulduar until a content nerf hits? Bear in mind, making 25 mans "hardcore" and 10 mans "ezmode" is not considered an option for Blizzard as they have stated they want each to have a difficulty progression. It's also still a little early to judge progression as a whole when the vast majority of players still aren't even level 80 yet.
Actually, I dont mind if people cleared Naxx in 3 days or in 2 weeks after the launch. It was obvious they would do it fast, and they did. What does that mean? Well, the question should be: What does that mean for them? They cleared all content, they have more or less nothing challenging left before 3.1 hits. I do! I still have to clear Naxx, I still have a lot of content before me.
If every dedicated wow-player would reach the "game over"-screen within 3 days, that would be catastrophic and the end of this mmo. If some very, very excessive, aggressive over-the-top players with years of experience, a perfect team, a perfect lead and the right amount of time do, that means absolutely nothing. Hell, they killed Kil'Jaeden within 11 raid days if you subtract the weeks of closed gates, and sunwell was the absolutely hardest instance of all times, everyone who has been there pre 3.0 knows that. A "normal" guild cannot and will never compete. It does not change a lot. Your local "server first"guild will be a bit faster. Your local "casual raider" guild will see more bosses in less time. That's about it. Some people will moan or even leave because the game is "too easy" pve-wise, but these people have been there before and always will be. Cleared content always seems easy, and content WILL be cleared sooner or later. This time, it's "sooner". We'll see what 3.1 brings.
That's (the bolded) such a deceiving thing to say though. Because of the gates system whenever facing a new boss in the sunwell you had farmed the previous boss at least 2 times. The early bosses were tuned to a guild in full t6. The later sunwell bosses were tuned to a guild with gear up to the last boss you had cleared within the sunwell.
^ theres a picture of the 25th November people's first Sartarion 25 kill. Count how many name plates you see. 20 people. If you had checked how many of their guilds players were level 80 the day after they finished clearing all wotlk content, the answer would have been less than 10 (I checked after seeing it on mmo-champion). Obviously since almost none of them are level 80, none or few of them are wearing lvl 80 gear, and most are still wearing lvl 70 sunwell gear.
I understand that heroic naxx is supposed to be a starter 25 man, I understand that they cleared the exact same content multiple times (original naxx, then beta naxx 10 and 25, and now on live both 10 and 25), and I understand that it is a guild composed of at least some of the best players in europe if not the best in the world. But despite all that, it still bothers me that the content was so easy that it could be undermanned by players an average of 3-4 levels below that which it was designed for (and even further below in gear levels). Its like if you walked into kara with t3 and 8 people at level 67 and cleared all of it in a few days.
I'm not saying that content should be as difficult as most pre-nerf sunwell fights, especially considering what heroic naxx is supposed to be as an entry level raid. What I am saying is that if its designed for players in 25 in at level 80 with level 80 blues, it shouldn't be doable by 20 players at level 77 in level 70 epics.
Were you checking the armory for their guild levels? If I recall correctly the armory was not updating quickly, if at all, for several days following release. I know for a fact many people who had plowed to level 73 in my guild still showed up as being level 70. I highly doubt that a fact as important as being sub-level would have been omitted from their complaint about the game being too easy.
What I lack in intelligence I make up for in verbosity.
I think the skill levels of the players has a lot to do with this as well. If you were to take an average raiding guild, what ever the "average" is...equip them with T7, and say ok, go take on WotLK content, you would not see them plow through it that fast. In fact, I would say that you would see a lot of them struggle, gear helps, but play skill can make all the difference in the world. Also, I think it's being overlooked that most/if not all of these guys were in the beta, for months...prior to release. They have seen these fights numerous times, tried different strategies, and I am sure that they were not full T7 stacked when they transferred their characters over to the beta. The leveled up to 80 on the beta, probably as fast as most raiding players are, in a week or two, so they could start on the raid content. Nothing about what they were doing was new to them, they probably tried killing Sartarion with the adds up on their first kill, why not, that would be an even bigger epeen stroke.
I think the impressive nature is getting player to the cap, and clearing the content in the short amount of time, but as professionals, I would almost expect nothing less. Imagine if you will the the New England Patriots playing against a college team, it's going to be a slaughter, and they could probably not play at full strength and still beat the college team. Would the next statement be that the NFL is too easy seeing as they have bested the entry level content for it?
11/21/08, 5:26 AM
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