sovelis41

Again, we're back at the "content is so easy" line. Put these comments in the back of your mind then check the D&R forums in a month about 25man Patchwerk and Gluth. I remember back when these folks absolutely obliterated BT and people said "wow that content is too easy" yet so many guilds were finishing up on it nearly a year and a half after it's release.

You pay for the whole chair, but you only need the edge.

 

CoroHD

Yes, but by the third day after the release the armory had been updating. If you look at the loot picture on their website you can see that certain level 80 gear is red where it says "Requires level: 80" because whoever took the screenshot at the time wasn't level 80. The one item on the page that is requires level 70 is white because whoever took the screenshot was above that level.

http://mirror2.futurized.nl/25th/loot.jpg

At best I would guess they had maybe 15 - 20 level 80's in the raid by their Malygos kill, which was the last 25 man they did to finish clearing all wotlk content.

EDIT:

I'm going to overly generalize and say most people who were finishing BT a year and a half after its release were either:

1. late to the game or late to the raiding part of the game
or
2. unable to make the time commitment that raiding actually requires

I was both. I only started playing (as in bought the game and made an account) when ZA came out in 2.3. The guild I joined raids 2 days a week for four hours which meant that when it came to progression we to choose one raid instance a week, and even then we cleared all non-sunwell content before wrath came out.

Just like there were always new 70's running kara, there will always be new 80's running naxx. That doesn't influence whether or not the content is over or undertuned

 

Sydane

This is at best supposition and at worst misinformation. There is no reason to believe whatsoever they did any of the encounters either undermanned or underleveled. The item screencaps are all links that could have just as easily been captured by a level one bank alt. The armory does not always update in a timely manor, and the guild list even now is as much as a day behind the individual character pages.

If they had done it with under 21 people they would have achievements to show for it. If they did either thing they would have every reason in the world to scream it from the mountaintops, and yet they have done no such thing. I strongly suggest that this entirely line of thought be immediately stopped until there is some real information to support it. What they did was impressive but you're dragging it into the realm of the insane.

Empathy does not imply approval.

 

sovelis41

Fair enough, maybe I was slightly over-reaching with my statement. I'll reply that our first bear runs as a guild weren't done with mains in full tier 6, as it was expected it was originally tuned for, but with alts in tier 5/pre-sunwell badge (and some tier 4) gear. There is something to be said for players that can play their class and know what they're doing (and the strats of course).

Another issue we're seeing here to a degree is there are compromises to be made on fight difficulty from a design standpoint. If a boss is tuned so that one or two disconnects won't immediately mean wipe (aka, a little bit forgiving, allowing for recovery), this in turn makes the fight easier overall if no one disconnects. This is only one example, but you see where I'm going with this. Blizzard decides they want you to be able to bring 2 Tanks of any type, 2/3 healers of any type, and 5/6 DPS of any type, and be successful. This kind of change makes bringing a very balanced and synergized raid "overpowered" since the encounter(s) is/are tuned for the low end of the band and not the high end (i.e. Sunwell). Which way Blizzard decides to go with ultimately determines an instance's relative difficulty. Add in extremely skilled players with a lot of time to burn and you have "really easy content."

You pay for the whole chair, but you only need the edge.

 

CoroHD

There is no evidence, except for the fact that they inexplicably left at most 5 people out of each first kill screenshot, and also inexplicably took all their loot screenshots with a level 1 bank alt.

I'm sure their Instructor Razuvious kill shot (http://twentyfifthnovember.com/25th/...rrazuvious.jpg) having only 20 people having only 20 people in it, and the user's UI having only 20 people in his raid unitframes is all coincidence too. I mean who cares about the 5th group anyways?

I hate to sound so cynical or goading but THIS is the exact reason why its so remarkable. Its literally unbelievable that they could do the content the way they did, which is why I think that at least 3.0 wotlk raid content is probably undertuned (I will never know until I actually try it myself). Don't believe me though. Look that the screenshots yourself. Look at the gear they are wearing. Count the number of people in each shot. soon.. If they didn't underman or underlevel the content then I admit I'm wrong. But just based off of what I can infer from their screenshots they sure did.

 

Bula

Well I can tell you for fact that they did not under level 25 man Naxx. There is a level 80 requirement to zone in as we learned last night when we attempted to bring in a few under leveled. With 21 players Instructor was pretty much a total joke. The wipes we had were while the priest learned how to use the abilities and then get a rotation going with the other priest. It was fairly reminiscent of Attunman's difficulty if he were scaled up to be a 25 man boss. Overall on a scale of difficulty from 1 to High king it is about a 5. Pretty much ideal for an entry level raid encounter.

That would land the zone in the triumph area by a long shot. The difficulty felt exactly like that of MC, given that we knew the abilities of every boss, it was simply just execution. Having a first tier of raiding that requires only execution and not overly complex execution at that is a return to the glory days of WoW classic. I am optimistic for the future and am enjoying the present now regardless. There has always been a faster guild then the one I'm in and it doesn't make the game any less enjoyable for me.

 

klüger

You infer things by going on things you have noticed.
You happily avoid discussing the fact that they would have had undermanning achievement had they been doing so.
You also avoid the fact that gear is not everything, and skill can be much more valuable then gear (not that they were in greens)

Why on EARTH would a guild who exist solely for doing the hardest/newest encounters/dungeons first, not have that shit plastered all over their guildpage?
Just give me one reason why.

 

mesullivan

You don't understand that if it's *feasible* for typical players at lvl 80 in level 80 blues, it will be doable by people like 25nov by 20 players in best 70gear at lvl 77-79 with only a few key players actually "geared for" the instance.

You don't think the current incarnation of kara could be cleared by 7 68s and 2 70 blue uncrittable tanks?

My mage was doing 600 dps at level 68-69, and I *sucked* at that point. He was my first character and had never raided before ever. I could easily imagine doing 600+ on bosses with the extra resist if I enchanted him up and did it today (or rather the day before 3.0), and that's plenty to clear kara if your group is any good and knows the fights (like if we'd been farming it in beta for a month). I'm quite certain that players of *my* level could clear karazhan at lvl 68 with 2 70 ready tanks now that we all know it well. I'd expect 25Nov to be able to do it short a player or two. That's the fair comparison.

 

bigp3rm

If I remember Blizzards VP said that they would be releasing one expansion a year. Maybe they are making raiding easier so more of the base can access this content. And since it will be replaced in 12 months (if the yearly expansion stands) there isn't a need for overly difficult raiding content.

 

CoroHD

Because they didn't actually underman the whole instance? I never said they did. Up until razvuious it appears they were 20 manning it, each screenshot after that it seems the got others in and as such they had more than 20 players in the instance. You can see on the last few that they had a full raid.

also, rage?

 

kalbear

As stated, you simply cannot zone into Naxx if you are under level 80. If there are ways to get non-80s into Naxx it isn't via walking in or via teleporting.

 

wickedgrey

Funny you should mention that... I was able to get a level 70 into Wrath-Nax. It's off-topic for this thread, but I'll make a new one and link it in here. But it's not something that could be used to underlevel content.

edit: http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t37181-i...on-repeatable/

 

vassleer

Please someone kill this conversation for being totally bogus. As several other have pointed out it is impossible to zone into 25-man Naxx without being level 80. I can personally verify this as I tried to zone in on my 79 warlock last night.

Speculation otherwise is absolutely baseless.

 

PSGarak

Entering the instance is impossible. The game only checks on zone-in, not periodically while you're in. While cute, your trick has no relevance on being able to circumvent the zone-in requirements with any character that's been played since 2.4. In specific, it's not possible to do that with a character between levels 71 and 79. Even regardless of that, I am quite certain that blizzard pays extra attention to world-first things and would have permabanned the shit out of that guild if they had gotten a world-first through exploits.

Can we stop the tinfoil hat BS now? Even if they undermanned the easier parts of Naxx, does that really change anything? The fact that they did have to bring in a full raid crew would seem to indicate there's some sort of difficulty progression, such as it is, which is a good thing.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

KamPa

You also can't attempt Sartharion, Malygos, or even Wintergrasp boss below 80. Neither 10 or 25 version.

 

Darkmgl

Their defense is they want everyone to experience all the content and that is why it is all gonna be 10 man/25 man and doable with reasonable difficulty. IMO they should add hard versions of all the raid zones (equivalent to heroics) for both the 10 man and 25 man forms. Can tag some nice achievements to them reward some nice unique looking stuff and let the players who want a real challenge go at it.

In theory casual players should have no complaint with that because it is beyond the normal scope of the game. They can still finish all the content just not on super hard mode.

 

Valen

I think there is a fundamental flaw with the dream world some of you are wishing for. Making raids extremly easy does nothing to make the game more "available and enjoyable" to "majority" if you look at the big picture.

The society of world of warcraft, like any other game contains a number of different layers. There will always be a "top" layer demanding harder content compared to the next layer. If you remove the current high end layer, you are just replacing it with another layer, which perhaps doesn't demand content to be as hard as the previos top level, but still strifes to experience challenging content suited for them, and not a layer lower. In the end you just end up with the same nature of the problem, just with another group of people. In the process, you just went out and made the game a whole lot less interesting.

On top of that, having no challenges will ultimately just make the game boring for everyone. World of warcraft isn't the only MMO out there. go play some other games casually and see how boring and dull it becomes if you could easily reach the end game. After all, that's why we throw our single player games away as soon as we master them.

 

Kuthumii

Because it is impossible to have a group in group 5, 6, 7, or 8 right? If they had undermanned all the encounters they would have said they did. They would be bragging about it. Yet I don't see them saying they did anywhere. So until you have some proof they did, STFU, with your false info. It brings nothing to the thread.

Actually it does. If new players and old players that never raided can just zone in and kill a few bosses, they usually have fun, thus they continue to raid. Raiding has been picked up more and more since tBC released, in part due to 10 man raids. Why do you think Blizzard is making 10 man versions? So I am not entirely sure what "big picture" you are looking at but making them extremely difficult stops the majority of people from even attempting the raid. These raids aren't extremely easy either. For a guild like 25Nov? Sure. They knew the bosses from Pre-tBC and farmed them on WotLK Beta, as for the other layers you speak of? They haven't hit Naxx yet, so no one can truly say how the encounters are going to be for them. I didn't see people QQ that content was easy in tBC when this group of people cleared is effortlessly.

They didn't remove a layer as you call it. Naxx is an entry level raid. It is suppose to be easy for guilds like 25Nov. It isn't meant for them. Jeez. How many times does that have to be said before some of you let it sink in?

 

Xei

I am personally of the opinion that Wrath raiding is a little too easy atm. Now my guild is no where near top end (we finished BC #140ish in the US) and we never did Naxx pre-BC, and we cleared the 10 man Naxx and Sartharion in 2 nights. We went and tried Malygos 10 man, and we struggled a little - which is good.

I cannot speak of the 25 man versions as our first full raid is tomorrow night, but from the 10 man experience from a middle of the road guild, it was pretty easy.

However, I can see it being hard for the kind of guilds it is aimed at.

"Being a leader is not a position of power. It is a position of service." ~ Barestomper

WTB Oceanic Horde PvE Players

 

Beliandra

It's no wonder this thread has gone around in so many of the same circles as these threads always do, when people who are in the top, what, 7000-odd, out of 2.5 million players, say they are "no where near top end".

And DON'T say "but not all of those 2.5 million are raiders.." when the whole POINT of this discussion is that Blizzard are trying to enlarge the number who are.

 

Talgog

Can we just kill this thread already? If you've raided the content, you are so much more intense and dedicated than Blizzard's confirmed average player that it's not even funny, and you're not the target audience for the content.

 

Maldi

I don't see why they cant just make content difficult while its new and nerf it over time like they had done with a few other instances. There's no reason blizzard cannot provide content for both ends of the spectrum. It didn't really bother me when they nerfed sunwell letting the terrible guilds down kj in a matter of days because it was nice doing it before hand the way it was designed, and every one knew that.

 

Tunch

Everyone keeps saying the same shit over and over again. Stop it.

This tier of raids was meant to be easy entry-level raid content. The subsequent tiers WILL GET HARDER, they have said this. You probably won't see anything as brutal as Sunwell (which was actually mostly due to class/buff/whatever stacking issues), but you will see challenging content. Lets move on, maybe to targeted discussion on the apparent disappointment that is "hard" mode Sartharion (the only actual news lately that has bothered me).

 

Lord Loom

This, like almost everything posted on the last two pages, was already addressed earlier. Basically YOU don't mind because you get the challenge and the glory, and everyone else can have the scraps once you're done, everyone who can't match the level of raiding competence or -dedication has to wait for serious nerfs just to have a chance? I don't see this as fun considering most WoW players, even most people who tried to raid in TBC didn't really get to the last raid tiers even after badge gear and a content nerf here and there (keep in mind that Sunwell nerf you're talking about was a heavy-handed change to accomodate new game mechanics without having to spend much time with rebalancing content, it can't be used as a benchmark to gauge the effect of raid nerfs in general).

This argument works both ways anyway, ie. one could as well say: "I don't see why they can't just make content easy, just instead of cheapening the experience for those that came after you, higher-end players like you still have the achievements and glory of doing content far earlier than everyone else, with less hiccups in progression and more shinies to show for."

Everyone always coming to Zathras with problems. Great responsibilities. But Zathras does not mind. Zathras trained in crisis management.