Ultramax

Considering how into the game they are, everyone in that guild knew how easy the content was. Either by doing it in beta or talking to people who did.

The only reason that statement is on their website is to attention whore and generate traffic. Frankly this thread should be deleted and removed to prevent them getting exactly that.

 

KraxisSingular

Considering this place and the heavy focus on min-maxing, I'm a little surprised. But in the good way.

I honestly feared a lot of complaining at this. But it seems most people commenting on it have not only accepted that Nihilum/SK would crush it, but also seem to encourage it.
Yes, I prefer easy entrylevel raids. I spent months in a latestarting guild and we honestly never got anywhere, even in Kara. In the end I moved on, but others left the game entirely. The people in that guild are the bread and butter of the game. The 'poor and downtrodden' of WoW. Giving them an honest chance at raids that aren't nerfed (thus diminishing the value of the achievement incredibly), will be good. The amount of poor manners I have experienced around Maggy and clearing him pre or post nerfs has been astounding. That encounter was a project in failure for the position it had. It is hardly a surprise so many guilds opted to simply ignore it.

If my current guild doesn't fail at least a few times in Naxx, then I will call it too easy. But for top guilds to clean it out so fast... no problem. Sorry for them to be sitting out on challenges until the next content patch, but at least there are achievements and the extra loot options. So there is at least something for them that most of us can't hope to do right away.

 

Nekrataal

But you can blame Blizzard for not giving out content for Sk. Nihilum & Co. When they don't release the next raid anytime soon you'll have all the guilds patiently waiting for content waiting again after paying 30E. This time they released when they had to release, not "when its done". This is my personal concern, is Blizzard giving up what made them so great?

 

Razzberry

Heroic: Glory of the Raider is the real challenge for elite raiding guilds, not just clearing the content itself. If all of them have Black Proto-drakes already, then maybe they can complain a bit about the tuning. Until then, they still have some legitimate challenges to defeat.

 

◊ songster

Blizzard have given out content for SK/Nihilum & Co. Here is a list:

Heroic: Glory of the Raider

Heroic: The Dedicated Few
Heroic: Make Quick Werk Of Him
Heroic: Momma Said Knock You Out
Heroic: Shocking!
Heroic: Subtraction
Heroic: You Don't Have An Eternity
Heroic: Gonna Go When the Volcano Blows
Heroic: The Twilight Zone
Heroic: Just Can't Get Enough
Heroic: Arachnophobia
Heroic: The Safety Dance
The Immortal
Heroic: And They Would All Go Down Together
Heroic: The Spellweaver's Downfall
Heroic: A Poke In The Eye
Heroic: Denyin' the Scion
Heroic: The Hundred Club


So far as I know, they have done at most 2 or 3 of the above.

 

◊ Zarakiteque

Although I do agree with most of what was mentioned here, with content aimed at the bulk of WoW players and achievements being for the ones that wanted a challenge, I still feel a "tiny little" dissapointed.

I play the game for fun obviously, but there it varies from individual to individual to what they consider fun. For me it was exploring raid content and getting a challenge while doing so. Now the challenge is shifted from exploring the content to completing achievements. Now, we'll basically explore raid content in a few weeks/a month at best.

I wouldn't say that I could whine about it being easy, just dissapointed a bit.

 

sovelis41

People have been reporting in beta (and Blizzard has said in blue posts) that the content would be very easy and entry level. If you are disappointed now, you haven't been believing or paying attention the last 2 months.

Blizzard gave people exactly what they wanted: Content that will be cleared by everyone in time with some optional things out there for elite guilds to compete for.

You pay for the whole chair, but you only need the edge.

 

Boop

Congratulations to NihilumSK.

The ball is in Blizzard's court at the moment. Two years of development time for a recycled Naxx, an Onyxia lair clone and one new dungeon is concerning. While I personally feel that even at 80 there is a lot I have missed, I do hope Blizz will be quick with new content.

 

Bellise

I will just say 1 thing on this matter. Let us wait and see how Ulduar works out.

Who we are is but a stepping stone to what we can become.

 

Kumar

Why are people surprised?

Blizzard has stated they did not feel enough players saw raid content past Kara/ZA in TBC. Especially that very few people had gone into Sunwell. I would rather Blizzard expand to more of their gaming base rather than reduce the focus to a few guilds. For the hardcore guilds out there, heroic raid difficulty was implemented.

Plus, Naxx v 2.0 means strategies don't take time to figure out.

From what I can see Blizzard has spent a lot of time on the quests in WoTLK. When I finished questing in TBC I had no drive to go quest more, right now after reaching 80, there is so much left to see, so much lore to find its awesome. I am glad Blizzard is concentrating on content that majority of their players are going to see.

No you can't blame Blizzard for this. It has been known since beta that Naxx was not going to be tough for Sunwell guilds. How many guilds saw Sunwell properly compared to the total number of guilds in WoW? Should Blizzard be worred about content for Sk/Nih or the other thousands who are taking their time questing in Northrend?

Coming from a server where only one guild downed KJ and that too after the 3.02 buff/nerf patch, making content more accesible is the right thing to do. Once the entry level content is accessible, people can get geared better to face the oncoming raids.

 

Ewinessa

Would you rather have a repeat of early TBC raiding? Pre nerf Gruul and Magtheridon as entry level 25 man? God awful trash on a 45 minute respawn timer? Despite all of those, after a few nerfs, cruising thru all that content in a month, being left in a raiding content draught for 8 months with no new challenges? There was a huge thread around these boards that talked at length about content pacing, it seems that Blizz has taken some of the discussion there at heart and is trying to apply it currently by pacing content such as Ulduar / mystery instance / Icecrown / other relevant content, instead of throwing it all on us from the start so that we can clear it in one month. Honestly, people need to see the big picture here.

The challenge for high end raiding guilds are still there, with an ego trophy at the end for those who achieve it, certainly any guild who gets the black proto drake is deserving of as much respect as those that cleared pre nerf sunwell. The only difference here from TBC is that the minimum requirements for a guild to be a raiding success are much lower, which is a very good thing.

 

Alvira

It doesn't make sense producing content that you want everyone to clear, yet it still challenges the top 0.001% elite raider group. Its not possible. Karazhan was a success but everything from Gruul, Magtheridon to SSC was tuned too high in terms of difficulty initially.

Original WOW raiding took off in a big way because MC was so easy. SSC and TK was so hard to complete they had to take away entry requirements into Mt Hyjal and BT.

Nowadays, the leading guilds are probably so good it doesn't matter how you tune the content. As long as its there, they are going to blow through it in a matter of time. And that time is going to be short. So, its better to just pace it out, put out more content on a more frequent basis.

Let achievements challenge the super hard core guilds. Or have timed reward options like ZA. This way, it becomes "easy to learn", "hard to master" which was the original intent for all content to begin with.

I applaud what Blizzard are doing. Its not a failure, its a success.

 

Uglesh

I really think that everyone who is upset about these sort of things needs a reality check. I see this on my server everytime someone dings a world first and the QQ starts pouring in. The fact of the matter is, THE GAME IS A TIMESINK!! If it takes 30 or 40 or 70 hrs to level from 70-80, the only variable that matters is how much free time I want to make for the game. The fact that I have 2 hrs a day and someone has 20 is just a fact of life. I really don't care and as long as it doesn't negatively effect MY gameplay then they are feel to steamroll all the content they want.

Raiding is no different for any serious guild. Yes every skill level will have a slightly different learning curve, but the bottom line is always TIME.

 

Prinsesa

TwentyFifthNovember was probably going to take a shot at Blizzard no matter what they did.

If they released Naxx, Malygos, Sartharion, Ulduar and Azjol-Nerub in 3.0, tuned it to need a month of gear farming and full buffs to beat and put in an attunement quest that requires "Malygos Scales" to enter Ulduar, of which he only drops 10 per kill, then the inflammatory nature of their post would persist, just with different content and probably a month later.

Yes, I did say that it would need a month of gear farming, but just as people were trying to down Hydross with half-blues half-Kara epics, bleeding edge guilds would've been attempting Patchwerk with quested greens anyway even if they doubled his HP.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Liebestod

Here are the alternatives to having a superuberguild clear the content right off the bat:

1) Make the intro WotLK instances tuned to Sunwell difficult
2) Arbitrarily add gear checks to the content
3) Release overtuned content and then gradually nerf it
4) Throw in a broken, untested Ulduar on live.

My preferred response is (3), but any of the others are arguably worse than not status quo.

It's true that the content shouldn't be tuned to the liking of .001% of the playerbase, but at the same time it's also true that these players have a very strong impact on the overall impression of the game.

I'm worried that unless Ulduar is patched in within a month or so, then Blizzard will lose the ability to create hard content because such a large proportion of casual guilds will complete the current raid stuff that making T8 content a brick wall would be as problematic as making T7 a brick wall would have been. We'll see what happens though.

 

urotas

I wasn't surprised to see Naxxramas cleared so quickly, but I am disappointed in how seemingly easily Malygos went down. Having one hard raid boss on the early tier would have been perfectly fine, and would have given guilds who clear Naxx and Sartharion quickly something to work on while waiting for the next patch. The lore geek in me cries at a Dragon Aspect being taken down so easily.

 

sovelis41

The barrier to any of these guilds clearing this content in one night was getting to 80, and we all knew that 2 months ago. Their comments that the content was too easy and Blizzard needs to look in the mirror were both irresponsible and expected based on their past.

You pay for the whole chair, but you only need the edge.

 

◊ Abradix

With regards to Malygos, it's very much an execution fight, and beta testers have had months to practice this execution. Every major guild has killed Naxxramas and Malygos so often by now, doing it on live was the same just with some worse gear and a few less players.

 

Megalith

The common opinion here seems to be that easy entry level raiding is a good thing. I agree with that and i'm not surprised that that Blizzard took this path since they had given a heads up on it long ago.

Personally i wouldn't mind the tuning in the complexity of the encounters to stay the same as now, but a steeper gear check curve that required some level 80 normal and heroic farming also before raiding. Making content pointless gear wise ain't really a idea to keep people busy is it? And i don't think it contributes to the overall feeling of satisfaction with the game either.
Bit surprised that they, as i see it, ditched their hard work on five man instances when coming to raiders. At least those who got the organization ready to raid, since one can start raiding right away. And for those, the content ain't that great and long lasting. It's not only the elite guild of merged SK and Nihilum that has cleared the content now, more guilds are dropping in by the day. We see the argument that one can't tune the encounters for the elitist top, since they are so few. But as i see it this small amount of raiders is on the other hand a large part of the active constructive community that makes this game interesting and alive on forums and homepages. Bit like top leagues in sports give people something to aim for and keep them them going. Is it a good thing to kill off the top league? I think not.

I think they could've slowed down the progress some with gear as said, but also to keep it interesting later implement more ZA like challenges. Making it easy for entry level raiders is a really good thing, but the failure of keeping it interesting for raiding people looking for challenges is not.

You who are 100% satisfied with this and see no problem at all. Is it cause you believe challenges will come later on or that you just don't think they are a good thing in an mmo? Because you do raid, so the discussion is based on equal interests?

 

Kemortia

I question the overall real impact SK/Nih/etc have on the larger player base. While I'm sure they get plenty of hits on their site, I'd wager it's still a pretty small margin of the overall player base. I find their shots at Blizzard rather sad personally, Blizzard has clearly stated that they felt Sunwell was too hard - and as stated many times in this thread Naxx is just the entry instance. I don't necessarily think raiding has recovered from the mess of TBC 2.0 even now two years later on. Ultimately I think they need to look at what they want from the game. If they are happy with the achievement system of raiding achievements, which I think are awesome, then they should stop whining and complete those. If they want more content like Muru, then they should probably just find something else to do with their time.

In my opinion, Blizzard's done an amazingly awesome job with the raid content so far in Wrath (speaking from Beta experience) and I'm very excited to see how Uldar turns out.

Eek, Shaman

 

Elani

You're implying that Nihilum/SK has already conquered the ZA challenges set out for them. They have not. As for the comparison you make between little leagues and big leagues, it doesn't really exist, most people I talked to back in when I was a raiding member of Death and Taxes during its heyday didn't know or care about the guild, and if they did it was usually something along the lines of "Wow, you must've had no life".

As for how easy content is, I would like to draw a parallel between console RPGs and where I think Blizzard is heading. In many modern console RPGs, the main story quest is quite easy, from start to finish I'd be surprised if you had a game over screen more than five times. However, there are usually optional side quests and/or monsters for the people who want a challenge and who want to min/max. For example, Yiazmat in Final Fantasy XII. This optional content is where the challenge is, and is where Blizzard is heading I'd say, where the main content is quite easy, for raiders like us anyway, but there are optional things you can do that give greater reward but are quite difficult to pull off.

Let's face it, having people fail at something repeatedly is bad game design, people don't like to fail. It's the reason why Resident Evil 4, for example, had unlimited saves and a checkpoint system, it's the reason why you couldn't die in Bioshock, and it's the reason why arcade style difficulty in most games no longer exists.

The direction Blizzard is headed in with the main content, and raids are part of the main content, being relatively easy is a triumph not a failure.

 

Megalith

QUOTE=Elani;978405]You're implying that Nihilum/SK has already conquered the ZA challenges set out for them. They have not. As for the comparison you make between little leagues and big leagues, it doesn't really exist, most people I talked to back in D&T's heyday didn't know or care about the guild, and if they did it was usually something along the lines of "Wow, you must've had no life".[/quote]
Well neither did i say or imply that they have beaten all achievements. I said that i think there should be more ZA style features to make every raid worth returning to since the completing it in the most basic way doesn't seem to require much gear or focus.
The top league comparison was to show how a few at current end game showing how their gear made their raids perform motivated people to want to be able to do the same. This at least works for me and a lot of people i know when building up a gear profile to match the encounters. A pvp epic grindable by everyone in Alterac valley is not as spectacular as let's say DPS trinket from Sunwell. Might be different for others of course.


Hm, but is the challenge and the reward exciting enough here? If this really was the case i would be fully satisfied. I'm, as most i think, playing games for fun and to have a go at some challenge from the game maker.


Well again, is the side content interesting enough for, let's say, most raiding people reading these forums? I guess it is at least looking at the positive comments in this thread. I hope the matter can be problematized some more. After all, ain't these forums alive and popular just because everything ain't trivial?

 

• Nisu

The raid achievements are the "ZA style features" - they're the ones that require near-perfect execution to receive, and many of them carry extra rewards, like titles, 310% speed epic flyers, and bonus loot. As has been said before, Blizzard's approach to the initial raid zones is that they're openly accessible to everyone. They're clearly not happy with the divide between Joe casual and Jack raider beginning so soon after the leveling content, so they're trying to open more content to the casual (which is not the same as making it a pushover - your average multi-day Karazhan group won't be 1-shotting everything in Naxx either) while leaving things for the hardcore to push for.

 

Prinsesa

As someone who could not fit raiding into his schedule for more than half of TBC's lifetime and sustained his playtime solely through 5-man instances, I would have to say that the ability to jump into Naxx after dinging 80 does not necessarily negate the usefulness of Heroic Utgarde Keep.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Currylaksa

It is a great and simple philosophy direct from the successful offline games.

Let the "average" raider experience the story and content. Let the hardcore have exclusive loot and highly visible bragging rights.

neither elitist nor jerk