A combat rogue needs to use deadly (or wounding) poison to keep a poison debuff on the target for Savage Combat (2% damage increase) unless you have an arms warrior.
A mutilate rogue needs to use deadly poison on one hand no matter what, as it increases their mutilate damage by 50% AND allows them to use envenom, the main finisher in their dps cycles.
EDIT: Also, for all rogues (but Mutilate especially), poisons make up such a large portion of their damage that forcing them to switch poisons is probably a bad idea.
A combat rogue needs to use deadly (or wounding) poison to keep a poison debuff on the target for Savage Combat (2% damage increase) unless you have an arms warrior.
A mutilate rogue needs to use deadly poison on one hand no matter what, as it increases their mutilate damage by 50% AND allows them to use envenom, the main finisher in their dps cycles.
EDIT: Also, for all rogues (but Mutilate especially), poisons make up such a large portion of their damage that forcing them to switch poisons is probably a bad idea.
For combat, Dual-Wound isn't that much behind Wound/Deadly depending on the fight and saves a debuff slot.
Mutilate can run as 4+Evi spam with dual IP if someone else covers the +3% crit buff, but loses quite some damage.
The important question is "how much" roughly.
As for mages, quantitative numbers are as follows:
* You can lose the Frostfire DoT (by speccing Fireball, no DoT) and Living Bomb (not casting it, just spamming nukes) for a ~5% damage loss each.
* Losing Pyroblast is a ~10% DPS loss, losing Ignite is a ~25% DPS loss.
* You can also drop all 4 DoTs by speccing frost, which is a ~20% DPS loss roughly.
I guess that the easiest start to minimizing debuffs is to have all of the mages spec frost and warlocks spec demonology+ruin. Next on the list is probably dropping unnecessary "hybrids" like shadow priests, ret paladins, dps warriors as long as their relevant raid debuffs and buffs can still be covered, and replacing them with dpsers who don't require so many debuff slots. (More frost mages, hunters, rogues)
It's a sad situation atm, but thankfully raids really don't seem to require much optimization yet.
Edit: Yeah I doublechecked total debuffs, and added in heart strike and mark of blood for the DK (icy touch should not stack with thunderclap/infectedwounds/etc.). Respecced the mages to frost, the warlocks to demonology+ruin, used 1 serpent sting total, and instant poisons instead of deadly for the rogues. The total number of debuffs with the same raid composition dropped from close to 60 to 39 debuffs, 40 with Taunt active. It sucks for the raw dpsers, but this is probably a better solution than dropping all of your hybrids from the raids or just letting debuffs fall off randomly.
A combat rogue needs to use deadly (or wounding) poison to keep a poison debuff on the target for Savage Combat (2% damage increase) unless you have an arms warrior.
A mutilate rogue needs to use deadly poison on one hand no matter what, as it increases their mutilate damage by 50% AND allows them to use envenom, the main finisher in their dps cycles.
EDIT: Also, for all rogues (but Mutilate especially), poisons make up such a large portion of their damage that forcing them to switch poisons is probably a bad idea.
Looking at the WWS prior to WOTLK (but after THE patch), the total damage coming from poisons on my mutilate rogue was 26%. The actual breakdow was 16% instant and 10% deadly; Since the deadly goes on the slower weapon, I can only assume replacing it with instant would roughly equal the damage coming from deadly (10%). The break down after this change would mean 26% of my damage coming from instant poisons. As for the loss of envenom (going to eviscerate), I cannot say... But I dont think it would be more than 1-2%. Mutilate DOES need poison, but any will do.
Finally, for combat rogues going 7/51/13 (with blood spatter and serrated blade), the cycle 2s/5r would probably yield the highest DPS thus forgoing that evenom discussion. One thing is for sure, you cannot have rogues not using rupture.
Conflagrate consumes Immolate, though, so each destruction lock is probably going to be casting their own Immolate. I have no idea how long the typical lock lets Immolate tick before consuming it, but it would be pretty close to impossible to have multiple destro locks cooperate with one another to ensure that only one Immolate is up at a time.
I was under the impression that while you can cast Conflagrate on someone else's Immolate you can not consume it. Thus, so long as you can trust your Affliction or Demonology lock to reasonably maintain it any/all your Destruction locks can skip casting it. This was how it was in beta at one point, whether this is how it works on live I can't say.
Originally Posted by Genre
Looking at the WWS prior to WOTLK (but after THE patch), the total damage coming from poisons on my mutilate rogue was 26%. The actual breakdow was 16% instant and 10% deadly; Since the deadly goes on the slower weapon, I can only assume replacing it with instant would roughly equal the damage coming from deadly (10%). The break down after this change would mean 26% of my damage coming from instant poisons. As for the loss of envenom (going to eviscerate), I cannot say... But I dont think it would be more than 1-2%. Mutilate DOES need poison, but any will do.
Don't forget that Envenom increases Instant Poison damage due to the 15% increase in application rate after its use. You'll lose some damage switching to Eviscerate just because of that. Because Eviscerate scales worse than Envenom and is mitigated by armor one can also expect its DPS contribution to drop by slightly more than the armor reduction of the boss you're fighting.
What I lack in intelligence I make up for in verbosity.
Has anyone actually raided yet and experienced debuff loss?
I have raided this past week in 25 mans as shadow, running on a full dot dps cycle. I have not noticed any of my debuffs dropping early, unless my Quartz timers are lying. Our raid's WWS for Kel'Thuzad shows we had up to 49 debuffs. If we have gone over 40, shouldn't it be visible in pushing off my dots?
Looking at the WWS prior to WOTLK (but after THE patch), the total damage coming from poisons on my mutilate rogue was 26%. The actual breakdow was 16% instant and 10% deadly; Since the deadly goes on the slower weapon, I can only assume replacing it with instant would roughly equal the damage coming from deadly (10%). The break down after this change would mean 26% of my damage coming from instant poisons. As for the loss of envenom (going to eviscerate), I cannot say... But I dont think it would be more than 1-2%. Mutilate DOES need poison, but any will do.
No. If you drop Envenom for Eviscerate, you also lose the % chance to apply your instant poison that you get from the Envenom buff. The buff is a 15% increase in proc rate from a 30% base rate (assuming 5/5 Improved), and is up about 40-50% of the time in a 4+r/4+n cycle. Thus, your effective poison proc rate is 37.5%, 7.5% of which is due to the effects of the Envenom buff. That means that your instant poison damage is also reduced by about 20% if you cannot use Envenom. With ~25% of your total damage coming from poisons (and assuming IP on the offhand is equivalent to DP on the offhand, which is isn't), that means that swapping Envenom for Eviscerate is a loss of about 5% of your total DPS even before you account for the fact that Envenom itself hits harder than Eviscerate.
Simply put: Any rogue that forgoes Deadly Poison and uses Eviscerate rather than Envenom will lose something in the region of 10% of their total DPS. We could get a better estimate from the spreadsheets, but the point is clear.
Has anyone actually raided yet and experienced debuff loss?
I have raided this past week in 25 mans as shadow, running on a full dot dps cycle. I have not noticed any of my debuffs dropping early, unless my Quartz timers are lying. Our raid's WWS for Kel'Thuzad shows we had up to 49 debuffs. If we have gone over 40, shouldn't it be visible in pushing off my dots?
Posted this a couple weeks ago, figured it would be relevant here:
We've gone over the debuff limit in every raid since 3.0, both in Sunwell and now in Naxx as well. Although Shadow Priests seem to be doing pretty well for themselves now, regardless.
Has anyone actually raided yet and experienced debuff loss?
I have raided this past week in 25 mans as shadow, running on a full dot dps cycle. I have not noticed any of my debuffs dropping early, unless my Quartz timers are lying.
Well, there seems a priority system of some sort to be in place, since my normal warlock DoTs do not get pushed off either. However, I've noticed Drain Soul stopping early for no reason which indicates that it's not the same priority as DoTs.
Also, Earth and Moon gets constantly pushed off, which severely hurts ALL of your magical DPS if you rely on it, so you might be better off using CoE despite having a balance druid around, as that seems to have a higher priority and doesn't drop every other second (i'm guessing it is the same problem with Ebon Plaguebringer, but not sure).
At the moment I can't say much about a lot of other debuff slots since I don't know their exact damage comparison, but at least 1 hunter should be keeping up serpent sting if you want them to optimize DPS. This is because of [Glyph of Steady Shot], which basically means that your hunters' DPS goes up ~3-4%. Cycling in a sting for all of them would be a waste of mana / time for them, one is enough.
Also, a few things you've missed:
- You forgot mindflay for the priests, and the debuffs are per-priest.
- 1 Warlock should be using curse of the elements to increase magic damage by 10%.
- I think elemental shamans use up a debuff slot for their totem of wrath, at least in PvP I noticed the totem giving me a debuff.
As for prioritizing, I'd say have rogues drop deadly poison for instant for starters, and I'm not really sure if demo-shout and shadow embrace stack. Also, earth and moon will probably overwrite the warlock CoE when it procs, but will need re-application after. Not sure if that's really optimal to use. Other debuffs I'll leave to people more experienced at 80
Just so you know, Gylph of Steady Shot only works when it is your OWN Serpent Sting that is applied.
We've gone over the debuff limit in every raid since 3.0, both in Sunwell and now in Naxx as well. Although Shadow Priests seem to be doing pretty well for themselves now, regardless.
Shadow Priests are the class better suited for a debuff competition because almost all their debuffs refresh automatically. Keep in mind that in WotLK even Shadow Word: Pain is constantly being refreshed with the usual rotation.
That is why I think that they have advantage in a highly debuff-competitive environment.
Just so you know, Gylph of Steady Shot only works when it is your OWN Serpent Sting that is applied.
It will not proc off of another raid member.
I've checked around a bit, but the question about which sting has to be on (personal or not) remains unanswered in the Hunter topics. Can you give a source / log that shows this? I think that would be a great addition to the hunter FAQ as well.
There was testing during beta in one of the very large EJ hunter threads, but a little searching has not unearthed it. I believe it was in the spreadsheet thread. Anyway, the conclusion was that someone else's Serpent Sting did not give you the bonus damage with the glyph. It would be better if someone could test it on live though.
More expensive than the high end spellpower enchant, it provides a caster with a chance to proc a DOT on the mob when casting harmful spells.
Seems like with the debuff slots as tight as they are, this enchant is useless for raiding.
That is a serious issue, since it is quite high level and might be the highest dps enchant for a caster. We will see when we get enough data to analize, but having to give up an enchant because it takes a debuff slot would be quite lame.
Also, it is quite charismatic so I can already forsee a lot of Warlocks & Shadowpriests wanting to use it. (I include myself)
Even if we want to maximize our possibilities in a raid, I dont think we should be forced to choose between effectivity and fun in a weapon enchant.
I tried to find this someplace online and I have given up. This is a great thread to talk about the buffs tanks will get. Has Blizzard implemented a limit to the number of buffs a player can receieve?
I went through the list of buffs the average raid warrior tank will have if he/she only has one type of each healer (1 resto druid, 1 disc priest - no holy priest, a resto shaman, and 1 holy paladin - but still bringing 2 other pallies), the tank will always have 45 buffs! Now, add to that, the number of additional buffs more priests, shamans, and druids give...more renews, lifeblooms, riptides, etc on the tank. Add more situational buffs like lightwell, fear ward, hand of sacrifice, dampen magic, etc and you are quickly above 50 buffs and on your way to 60. No even indluding any self buffs that are temporary like spell reflect, weapon enchant procs, sheild wall, etc.
In healer heavy fights, it is safe to say the tank will have around 60 or more buffs! It would be great to know if this approaches (or is above!) a buff cap.
Can we get a more compact and better list for this? How about a posting of all debuffs that would be less than a 5% personal dps loss to cast something else OR be a different spec that uses less debuffs.
For example (I am not saying these examples are true, though they might be) a combat rogue using double instant instead of a mutilate rogue, a destro warlock instead of an affliction warlock, no Black Magic enchant, no siphon life, etc. I'd like to just present a list of banned specs, debuffs to my guild.
This may become an issue where you specifically decide who you want to apply certain debuffs out of the possible 2 or 3 classes that you have available, and the rest to spec out of those debuffs to keep overlapping to a minimum.
An example would be two different DPS warriors, arms and fury. Arms warriors will likely apply 5 debuffs (rend, deep wounds, trauma, blood frenzy, and mortal strike). A fury warrior (without furious attacks) would only be applying deep wounds.
This could be a situation where if you already have a feral druid applying mangle (covers trauma) and a rogue with savage combat (covers blood frenzy), you'd rather have a fury warrior because they use 4 less debuff slots. This probably also applies to various scenarios with different spell debuffs.
If you do bring Affliction Locks, you might want to ensure they DO NOT spec into Imp Shadow Bolt as it will just push another debuff off that will yeild greater benefit.
More debuff slots taken by hunters (or rather their pets):
Cat (every in raid): Rake (DoT) Big part of pet's dps, same with hunter's. (I'd say that >20% of BM's dps)
Scorpid (only one in raid, other ones will overwrite previous one): Poison (stacking DoT) - the most important source of scorpid's dps (see above).
That makes another 3 debuff slots taken.
Last edited by Vegelus : 12/01/08 at 10:27 AM.
Reason: typos
Master Poisoner rogue talent is currently bugged to give 15% crit (instead of 3%) to the entire raid for each 5 stack of deadly poison. Multiple rogues with this talent stack this buff.
I saw someone post in the Warlock discussions that they put up a DoT after 40 debuffs were up. It was just an observation, but interesting to try to verify.
Sadly, mods like Debuff Filter are coded to display 40 debuffs (even if more somehow are allowed on the target, you only see 40).
Rumor has it that this is a very serious technical issue for Blizzard. Much of the high priority, frequent network traffic between client and server during raids involves the list of debuffs, their timers, what has expired, what has gotten pushed off, and so forth. You'd think that 40 debuffs wouldn't be a lot of information, but apparently expanding it past 40 is not easy either from a protocol design standpoint or a network bandwidth utilization standpoint.
Which suggests it will be at least 3.1, if not later, before the debuff limit is expanded. I would expect to see an attempt to patch the problem with yet another stab at the halfheartedly-implemented debuff prioritization in 3.1, followed by a more comprehensive fix a few months down the line. Which would itself then suggest that raids are going to have some chaotic debuffs and weird warlock dps for some time to come.
More debuff slots taken by hunters (or rather their pets):
Cat (every in raid): Rake (DoT) Big part of pet's dps, same with hunter's. (I'd say that >20% of BM's dps)
Scorpid (only one in raid, other ones will overwrite previous one): Poison (stacking DoT) - the most important source of scorpid's dps (see above).
That makes another 3 debuff slots taken.
I didn't list debuffs like that because well, they are crap. There are other comparable pets for hunters that do very similar dps without consuming a debuff slot.
Rumor has it that this is a very serious technical issue for Blizzard. Much of the high priority, frequent network traffic between client and server during raids involves the list of debuffs, their timers, what has expired, what has gotten pushed off, and so forth. You'd think that 40 debuffs wouldn't be a lot of information, but apparently expanding it past 40 is not easy either from a protocol design standpoint or a network bandwidth utilization standpoint.
Which suggests it will be at least 3.1, if not later, before the debuff limit is expanded. I would expect to see an attempt to patch the problem with yet another stab at the halfheartedly-implemented debuff prioritization in 3.1, followed by a more comprehensive fix a few months down the line. Which would itself then suggest that raids are going to have some chaotic debuffs and weird warlock dps for some time to come.
Which leads me to an interesting question. I run DoTimer and Demon and without fail we reach the debuff limit on every boss, but I very rarely (if ever) notice DoTimer telling me that my DoTs have expired prematurely. Does it simply not update with that information if they are pushed off on account of the debuff limit or are they prioritized so highly that they just rarely fall off?
11/21/08, 8:14 AM
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