It *can* work, but there's a reasonable amount of risk to it:
1. You have to have enough capital to buy out all of the current product on the market.
2. You have to price it at an acceptable level. It may be possible to price it really high and just wait for people to 'accept' the new price, but ...
3. ... this only encourages people to snipe/undercut your prices, which leads to ...
4. ... You have to have enough capital (and free time) to buy out and relist any competition. Note that the more relatively expensive you price an item, the harder it may be for people to accept your new prices and the longer you have to be able to hold out.
On our server, there's never more than 40 abyss crystals on the AH and they're max 80 gold each. So I was wondering if buying all of them and relist them higher would be a viable strategy for fast gold?
There are 2 possible problem I can see:
1- people will see what I did and wait a few days to see if prices drop back to 80 gold, therefore I won't sell.
2- I will have to check AH almost 24/7 for the first few days to make sure nobody undercut me too much.
Don't even try it. You don't control the choke point in the production of abyss crystals. You mentioned Frozen Orbs as well and you suffer the same problem. The inability to control the production of said item dooms your attempt. This is why it is so valuable to scoop up a useful gem cut as early as possible. Even there you run into the issue you cannot control what happens to BOE patterns, you may only see one out of ten on the AH. I obtained the +expertise/+defense cut and had the AH to myself for a whopping three days before an under cutter appeared and that was with a newly dropped recipe. Now there are four or five sellers and the value of my cut is back to making more selling raw gems.
This can work, but not in such a straightforward way. What can be done is slowly driving up the price of a certain commodity over time, by buying up all of it and pricing it slightly higher, but extreme differences are generally not accepted and subject to drastic undercuts. If today something is 1g and tomorrow that same thing is 10g, people will not accept it because the difference is too large, and just not buy the item or aquire it through other means. However if today it is 1g and tomorrow it is 1g10s, people will usually either not notice, or consider it to be bad luck that there are no 'cheap ones' on the ah that day and buy the slightly more expensive ones if they need them. If the increments are small enough and the timespan long enough, this can work.
The trick to making money off of something like this is to build up a stockpile as you drive the price up, and then when you have succeeded in driving up the price, to slowly start releasing that stockpile onto the market.
The entire thing is VERY high risk though and requires a lot of time and dedication, and most of all an incredible amount of capital. If you fail to actually drive up the price you may very well end up having to sell for less then what you paid for the item or end up with a huge stockpile of useless stuff.
We the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much for so long that we are now qualified to do anything with nothing.
I was thinking about something to make money, but since it's pretty risky, I thought I would ask people who probably have already tried it: Monopolizing an item on AH.
On our server, there's never more than 40 abyss crystals on the AH and they're max 80 gold each. So I was wondering if buying all of them and relist them higher would be a viable strategy for fast gold?
ex: 30 abyss crystals on AH with an average price of 80 gold. I buy them all(I have the money for it) and relist half of them for 100-120 gold right after, thus gaining 40 gold per abyss crystals and increasing the demand for them.
There are 2 possible problem I can see:
1- people will see what I did and wait a few days to see if prices drop back to 80 gold, therefore I won't sell.
2- I will have to check AH almost 24/7 for the first few days to make sure nobody undercut me too much.
So is it possible? Should I do it with another item like frozen orbs? This method obviously has to be done with a really high demand item so people will still buy it if I double the price and also has to be done with an item wich is pretty rare, else I won't be able to buy all of it. Any tips from people who have done it would be appreciated. I don't wanna try with no background and loose 2000 gold :P
I think the main problem would be people who have a large amount of abyss crystals, waiting for the price to go up. I can't imagine you could end up loosing much, worst case scenario a few people decide to list their Abyss and therefore the supply goes up and the price goes down. It will most likely stabalize after a while so there isn't much to loose apart from time.
The problem is, if it's relatively easy for you to come up with stock, it's easier for others. You may be able to find a niche market, especially if you can set up a deal with a farmer that works out well for both of you. Believe it or not, a few of the pre-BC markets are coming back a little bit thanks to achievements. For example, the mats for the AD turn-ins, morrowgrain/un'goro soil (maybe), etc.
The problem with those markets are like men watching porn: people are REALLY interested in what you're selling for a short amount of time; then they don't care anymore. However, if you have a fair amount of serial achievers on your server, you may be in luck.
I'm curious if you guys think there's much life left in the fish/food market? I've just started fishing, cooking, and selling in somewhat earnest; and I'm trying to figure out if it's worth the time involved to fish. I know I can just buy fish, cook, and sell the food, but it's easy to run out of cooking awards that way.
Abyss crystals will also be produced in greater quantity each week as more and more guilds dis their entire Nax loot run except for the odd one or two items they are aiming for. Simultaneously demand will drop as more people get their best in slot item and no logner require them until Ulduar/S6.
Originally Posted by Shadowed
The best part is, not only were you late in linking it, that's an April fools topic from 6 months ago.
This can work, but not in such a straightforward way. What can be done is slowly driving up the price of a certain commodity over time, by buying up all of it and pricing it slightly higher, but extreme differences are generally not accepted and subject to drastic undercuts. If today something is 1g and tomorrow that same thing is 10g, people will not accept it because the difference is too large, and just not buy the item or aquire it through other means. However if today it is 1g and tomorrow it is 1g10s, people will usually either not notice, or consider it to be bad luck that there are no 'cheap ones' on the ah that day and buy the slightly more expensive ones if they need them.
Actually some people (can't quantify it) will go along with the new, higher price just fine. Realize that most players don't monitor item prices on the AH daily, so they don't know that Eternal Earth sold for 3g two days ago and now someone has artificially inflated the price to 6g. They either want the item enough to pay the price for it or they don't.
My experience has been the more often than not they'll still buy it as long as the price isn't too outrageous. Most people seem to do their buying at the time of need and not proactively, so they'd rather not put off the gratification of getting whatever item or material they want any longer. This is especially true for items which aren't easily farmable.
I don't think we're in total disagreement here, I just wanted to point out that players seem to make their buying decisions based on how reasonable they consider the current price and not how it compares to the historic price.
Actually some people (can't quantify it) will go along with the new, higher price just fine. Realize that most players don't monitor item prices on the AH daily, so they don't know that Eternal Earth sold for 3g two days ago and now someone has artificially inflated the price to 6g. They either want the item enough to pay the price for it or they don't.
My experience has been the more often than not they'll still buy it as long as the price isn't too outrageous. Most people seem to do their buying at the time of need and not proactively, so they'd rather not put off the gratification of getting whatever item or material they want any longer. This is especially true for items which aren't easily farmable.
I don't think we're in total disagreement here, I just wanted to point out that players seem to make their buying decisions based on how reasonable they consider the current price and not how it compares to the historic price.
You are naturally quite right, I tend to be overly pessimistic about this sort of thing...the main thing I wanted to stress was that you need to raise the price slowly, since as you mentioned, if the price is too outrageous people will tend to notice there is 'foul play' at work. I've seen people go wrong in that respect and lose a lot of money because they simply bit off more then they could chew...
We the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much for so long that we are now qualified to do anything with nothing.
I think the main problem would be people who have a large amount of abyss crystals, waiting for the price to go up. I can't imagine you could end up loosing much, worst case scenario a few people decide to list their Abyss and therefore the supply goes up and the price goes down. It will most likely stabalize after a while so there isn't much to loose apart from time.
I seriously doubt there are many people out there sitting on a large pile of abyss crystals waiting for the price to go up though. Common sense says the price on these items will continue to steadily drop over time as less gear is needed from entry level raids and more epics are disenchanted. Abyss Crystals are probably one of the worst "investments" you can make unless you are banking on a major change to enchanting recipes (and even then your opportunity to cash out would likely be a very limited window).
Of course, that doesn't mean you will be able to successfully increase the price for abyss crystals by buying out the AH and relisting. You might get a few sales at your increased price, but you are still fighting a slowly declining market and it would be nearly impossible to push the price upward by a measurable amount over a long period of time. Even over a short period of time it would likely be difficult to make money and there are many other markets with a more limited supply line that could be manipulated much easier I would think.
Another problem with this market is that the people who need these crystals the most (raiders looking to enchant best in slot items) usually have access to an ample supply of them via the guild bank. I am a big fan of selling goods to high end raiders, but abyss crystals do not seem like they would work especially well.
on fish/food. It isn't quite the cash bonanza that it was a month or so ago, btu it is still very solid farming. Just be sure to only fish pools of fish that people actually use (fish feast mats and those used to make "alternate" options that are popular, such as agi). You can still fish up stacks of fish an hour and sell them at a hundred or so a stack with the right fish. In the new economy with it's rapid deflation, fish are one of the items that have held their value better than most, despite Blizard essentially nerfing them. It is also soemtiems possible to buy spice and uncooked fish, and resell the fish at a higher price than the spices and fish, believe it or not... :> Your server may vary, of coruse.
Just be sure to only fish pools of fish that people actually use (fish feast mats and those used to make "alternate" options that are popular, such as agi).
Dragonfin Angelfish are one of the more popular. It's the only STR food available and I'm fairly sure the only AGI one as well. There is a lake in Dragonblight that usually has a couple of pools up, respawn is quite quick. In about an hour or so I'd fished up about 100-120 of them, and recently on my server they have been selling for as much as 80g a stack.
Market manipulation have in the past sometimes resulted in suspension and other Blizzard response.
The scale on which you need to subverse the game economy to render punishment is as far as I know not yet determined.
Neither do I know if Blizzard proactivly studies ingame economy or if they rely on player reporting before acting.
So the "buy a market niche and bleed it dry" has more disadvantages than the undercutters and supply flow control.
If anyone who have been subject to such sanctions would like to share here it could perhaps sevre as a good guideline on where the line is drawn and who draws it.
Market manipulation have in the past sometimes resulted in suspension and other Blizzard response.
The scale on which you need to subverse the game economy to render punishment is as far as I know not yet determined.
Well, you are a European player. Inside of normal game mechanics, there doesn't appear to be anything in the Terms of Use related to market manipulation or economic crimes. European accounts can't be actioned without actual breach of the TOU/EULA. Your consumer law is very protective.
American players can be actioned for any or no reason. That said, the only thing that has ever really been enforced to my knowledge is out-and-out theft - usually crafting or enchanting fraud - or bug/incident exploitation. Item dupes, money dupes, playing craps with the RNG, taking advantage of free S5 gear, taking advantage of unlimited gold that was infused into a server economy (probably) by a disgruntled GM, etc. Stupid stuff like that. For the most part, Blizzard is indifferent to all things economic other than inflation.
The only time Blizzard has, to my knowledge, punished anyone for having "too much" gold was collateral damage from gold seller account sweeps. Other than that, it's really damn hard to "subvert" the WoW economy. You can't create a hard monopoly, you can't counterfit money, you can't counterfit or dilute goods, there is no market for a player-run fractional reserve bank, etc. The only one of those that could conceivably be created with normal WoW mechanics is the bank - but this has never happened. Because of the effectively unlimited size of player storage, total lack of ability to collect on loans or regulate access to deposits, and the impossibility of theft outside of account fraud, it never will happen.
For the most part, Blizzard is indifferent to all things economic other than inflation.
I most definitely recall a couple of different reports about someone being suspended and having their gold account cleared on account of monopolising the Auction House. I do think it's somewhere in the old Make Money thread and I've seen one or two reports on other forums too.
So not only is the item picked to monopolise a poor choice, it's not a smart move in the first place.
Ignorance can be solved with a book. Stupidity requires a shotgun and a shovel.
A fractional reserve banking system in WoW is an impossibility as you cannot create money.
All you need to do is talk people into using [Conjured Water] as currency. Mages will be in favour from the get-go, so you're 1/10 of the way there already.
All you need to do is talk people into using [Conjured Water] as currency.
Great idea, with one tiny flaw - conjured items disappear if you log out for 15 minutes. I don't see much benefit to a banking system where all the currency in circulation ceases to exist during each weekly maintenance period.
clearly the correct currency of choice are hogger drops. ;> As for banning people for market manipulation, I doubt it. On my server, there is a guild that finds it funny to park multiple mammoths on top of the ironforge bank's mailbox, and to my knowledge nothing has ever been done despite literally hundreds of player complaints over a period of weeks. if such blatent griefing is ignored, I doubt that buying up all the abyss crystals ( or whatever) and relisting them at a higher price is going to be punished, although Blizzard is, admitadly, not especially famous for consistancy in such matters.
I most definitely recall a couple of different reports about someone being suspended and having their gold account cleared on account of monopolising the Auction House. I do think it's somewhere in the old Make Money thread and I've seen one or two reports on other forums too.
Considering how pervasive market cornering attempts and arbitrage are and how abusive most of the pricing is for new players, I am very skeptical of any claims of organized Blizzard action against monopolists. Blizzard actually intervening in this as a matter of policy would be a very big deal. There wasn't any doubt what Blizzard was doing when they cracked down on win trading and Blizzard has previously publicized action against gold sellers.
Most people who complain about action against their account have been doing more than what they claim they were punished for, just like how most people who complain about their accounts being "hacked" have been either doing business with gold sellers or have been clicking on random dirty links.
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Really, market cornering, particularly on anything related to raiding, is usually its own punishment now that you have organized guild banks. There is a tremendous OTC market that any auction house manipulator can't even touch. If you don't control the supply, you can't run a monopoly. Trying to make yourself into the De Beers of a particular enchanting mat or gem is just foolish because there are about 20 different "mines" that produce it and dozens of major actors on your server who have their own stocks. You control none of these.
The only successful monopolies in WoW have been crafters who are first to market with a valuable pattern (Arcanite Reaper, Lionheart Helm, Red Belt of Battle, jewelcrafting) or extreme high level raid mats that can be obtained by only one or two guilds at a certain point in progression. These of course are of limited duration.
The Staff of Jordan will become the new unit of currency, with the flimsy gold piece forever forgotten!
How can they action you for buying items from the auction house? It just boggles my mind a bit. Does anyone here have text from an actual infraction? It would be useful to know just how they delineate that boundary. I've dabbled in cornering various items before and use of an in game feature (the Auction House) for its intended purpose (buying and selling items honestly / without exploits) leading to account punishment is just weird.
The only successful monopolies in WoW have been crafters who are first to market with a valuable pattern (Arcanite Reaper, Lionheart Helm, Red Belt of Battle, jewelcrafting) or extreme high level raid mats that can be obtained by only one or two guilds at a certain point in progression. These of course are of limited duration.
Actually, in the old days of WoW, before the original Art of Gold thread, before auctioneer became widespread, and before people even knew that playing the auction was something people did, there were many commodity-related monopolies.
There were well-noted people on my old server Mannoroth (high pop) who amassed fortunes exceeding 10k+ gold (back when farming up 1K gold for an epic mount was considered challenging) by gaming ore and cloth markets. There was one guy who basically broke the bank with his Mooncloth production and market cornering.
I would agree, however, that in today's more sophisticated market, building commodity-related monopolies (as opposed to product-related, which you have described) is close to impossible. Obviously, if you're not a producer of lucrative products, then arbitrage remains the most time-effective way of making gold (ie, buying out commodities and turning them into other commodities via tradeskills).
What I'd like to know, however, is whether gathering remains superior to pure farming (killing mobs for drops). I thought I was making some good money by mining, upwards of 200g an hour... but then I noticed that some mobs out there drop a rather lot of gold. Has anyone tested any pure farming areas (ie, grinding for eternal fire or the like) that could prove superior to herbing, mining, etc?
Has anyone tested any pure farming areas (ie, grinding for eternal fire or the like) that could prove superior to herbing, mining, etc?
Killing dynamic spawn mobs that drop Relics of Ulduar can be extremely profitable. They come in at around 200 per hour for me (50% drop rate, ~9s average mob kill time, mostly due to travel time), and sell for 5g a piece. However, you cannot do this indefinitely, as to keep that selling price, you can't farm for more than an hour every couple days. You'll also get around 120g in pure coin, 90g in greys and depending on enchanting mat prices on your server, 200-400g worth of dust and essence.
What I'd like to know, however, is whether gathering remains superior to pure farming (killing mobs for drops). I thought I was making some good money by mining, upwards of 200g an hour... but then I noticed that some mobs out there drop a rather lot of gold. Has anyone tested any pure farming areas (ie, grinding for eternal fire or the like) that could prove superior to herbing, mining, etc?
Honestly, I find that a combination of the two seems to work best for me. The advantage of "pure" farming is that you don't usually have to worry about competition and, depending on class, you have very little downtime between mobs. The advantage of gathering is that a single node yields a lot more gold than an individual mob. The problem is that you have to worry much more about competition and travel time.
Killing mobs between nodes does increase travel time, but you are making a steady income during that travel time. I also find this method good in that the area I am farming is overall decreased (increased travel time meaning that I can run a smaller circuit without having to wait for repops). It also takes a lot of the luck out of getting good nodes and decreases dependence on the AH for income.
Market manipulation have in the past sometimes resulted in suspension and other Blizzard response.
The scale on which you need to subverse the game economy to render punishment is as far as I know not yet determined.
Neither do I know if Blizzard proactivly studies ingame economy or if they rely on player reporting before acting.
So the "buy a market niche and bleed it dry" has more disadvantages than the undercutters and supply flow control.
If anyone who have been subject to such sanctions would like to share here it could perhaps sevre as a good guideline on where the line is drawn and who draws it.
In regards to monopolizing etc, I never tried to control the market by buying, but I was able to make a tremendous profit (often over 5k gold net per day and more total gold than most people could imagine) by simply prospecting ore and selling cuts and relisting as soon as a cut sold, and Blizzard never spoke to me. I did it enough and had enough of the market share that there are still some people on my server who hate me, and I'm sure I've been reported for market manipulation more than once.
I've heard of 3rd hand accounts of being suspended etc too. I would occassionally drive prices down and then buy up all the supply, but I didn't make it a regular habit. Perhaps someone who was more aggressive on the buy side might run into more problems.
Wowhead's numbers, I think, should be totally accurate for saronite ore. They were inaccurate in TBC because midway through they upped the prospect rates on adamantite ore, so the number they report is a blended number between the old and new prospecting rates for adamantite ore. (This led anyone who knew this to make a serious killing if they wanted to.)
My own anecdotal evidence matches their numbers for saronite ore pretty well.
On my server you can still generally double your money right now by buying ore, prospecting it, selling good cuts and DEing the greens into dust and essences. Unfortunately, with the sheer number of cuts and quantity of jewelcrafters out there now, I don't think it would be sanely possible to do what I did in TBC (to gain a large market share) without spending a lot more time than I spent in TBC.
And to continue the JC vein, is anyone good with math able to reverse-engineer the numbers from wowhead for icy prism? It seems like you get 2 or 3 rare gems and 0 or 1 dragon's eye. The dragon's eye part seems pretty easy, I believe, as it's just a straight 11% (probably 10%?) chance. What percentage chance do you have to pull a 3rd gem, or put another way, what is the chance you'll get 2 vs 3 gems?
I´ve been playing the AH a lot as JC/Ench - making a fair amount of gold out of that since BC.
Being on a fairly well populated server and faction I learned a few things to put to use that you can use for starters:
1) Demand
Monitor player demand - get in touch with guilds. See when they raid, how long they raid.
Many guilds raid Wednesdays, Thursdays and Sundays on my server.
Wen/Thu 23.00-0.30 is the cash hours - Sunday 22.00-24.00 is just mental for gold gain.
It´s not the guilds you make most sales off - its the randoms.
02/04/09, 4:27 AM
:offtopic:
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