Well we just take that inconvenience. By the time Vesperon lands, the Cooldown-Race starts for me as
a warrior. I'm not sure if something like Lacerate works for it? The druids here probably know better about that.
But it has been stated earlier I think that you hit Mangle and Maul as soon as the cast started, then the Debuff
needs like a second to be removed (so don't wait too long during the cast!) and hope that it doesn't reapply, works
for me most of the time (not too soon, and not too late i try to hit shield slam between 0.5-0.9sec of the cast).
I usually have 1-3 casts without cooldowns while shadron still lives.
Regardless, both ways result in Shadron dying at the same time and since Vesperon is on a timer, the length of the "hard period" will be the same. Until guilds can kill Tenebron before Shadron lands *without* the use of heroism there will be no 'best option'. Once guilds can do just that, the fight becomes trivial, as you can then pop heroism to get Shadron out of the way before Vesperon even lands. But that's completely irrelevant for killing them now.
We almost reached that point last week (our second kill) with 6 healers. We dps'd tenebron as normal, killed him about 10 seconds after Shadron landed, then we popped heroism and aoed everything down and Shadron was at ~20% when Vesperon came down. Honestly this fight feels on par with something like Gurtogg/RoS difficulty once we stopped going into portals until Shadron died. It's infinitely easy to just keep it simple and burn him, you may lose a few to random raid damage along the way but as long as you can rotate CD's on your Sarth tank (and for our last kill he only got one breath with all the damage modifiers up) it's really pretty simple.
"Oh he's a sad little man? He's thrown a kettle over a pub, what have you done?"
Anyone try using a second prot warrior with safeguard to intervene the MT every breath attack? My guild doesn't run with 2 prot warriors so haven't been able to try it out. But if the intervening warrior could get in and out before breath it could eliminate a lot of other cool downs.
Heres another helpful thing you can do to help your MT survive his breaths. Bring in a hunter (Pref-BM) with a tenacity pet. Make sure the tenacity pet is speced for Roar of Sacrifice and its helpful to have both of the Stamina boosters from the tree as well. Then make a macro for it.
#showtooltip
/petfollow
/cast [target=xxxxxx] Roar of Sacrifice
Replace xxxxxx with the tank name or use focus and set the tank as your focus target. Might have to hit it a few times due to Pet GCD.
We tried this the last time we were doing 3D Sarth and really it lowered the amount of damage the MT was taking by a good bit since the downtime is only 9s if your 3/3 Longevity. The pet is a lot more expendable then the MT and the pet can be revived and supplemented with healing from the hunter. Our last killing of 3D Sarth had the pet absorb 250k of the damage done to the MT which is quite significant.
Small sample from our WWS log
00:50'17.600 Polarbears gains Roar of Sacrifice.
00:50'18.772 Polarbears Roar of Sacrifice causes 2935 damage to Pinchy #3. <-Melee
00:50'20.381 Polarbears Roar of Sacrifice causes 885 damage to Pinchy #3. <-Melee
00:50'22.037 Polarbears Roar of Sacrifice causes 3474 damage to Pinchy #3. <-Melee
00:50'22.381 Polarbears Roar of Sacrifice causes 684 damage to Pinchy #3. <-Melee
00:50'23.256 Sartharion #3 Flame Breath hits Polarbears for 19694 Fire. (1776 Resisted) (8440 Absorbed)
00:50'23.584 Polarbears Roar of Sacrifice causes 8440 damage to Pinchy #3. <-Flame Breath
Granted it does lower the hunter's DPS by a little but it helps with survivabilty for the MT. Plus since pets are useless when Vespron comes down anyway due to Twilight Torment destroying them, he's still providing a good use. If the pet dies from it, its just a simple revive pet, mend pet/bandage, then back to RoS. With full buffs and the -25% modifier, he'll have around 17k life which is plenty to survive melee feedbacks and the breath feedback.
Anyone try using a second prot warrior with safeguard to intervene the MT every breath attack? My guild doesn't run with 2 prot warriors so haven't been able to try it out. But if the intervening warrior could get in and out before breath it could eliminate a lot of other cool downs.
The problem is that your warrior who "saves the day" intervenes into the same 40k+ flame breath. Not such a good idea...
It might theoretically work with a well timed tank intervene followed by an intercept to a nearby fire elemental or drake. However, with a cast time of 3 seconds on the breath I expect that isn't very feasible. You could also intervene before the cast starts, but then that's a gamble as to whether the -30% damage reduction will still be up when the breath goes off.
The problem is that your warrior who "saves the day" intervenes into the same 40k+ flame breath. Not such a good idea...
It might theoretically work with a well timed tank intervene followed by an intercept to a nearby fire elemental or drake. However, with a cast time of 3 seconds on the breath I expect that isn't very feasible. You could also intervene before the cast starts, but then that's a gamble as to whether the -30% damage reduction will still be up when the breath goes off.
Yeah only way I see it working is if the MT stands as close as possible to the boss without him moving that way the prot warrior only has to back out a few yards to avoid the breath. But if you could get it to work out right you could essentially get every other breath,
The name of the damage you take from Shadow Fissures is called Void Blast, so it is easy to see how much damage each player took during any given attempt from WWS. I couldn't find the name of the damage you take from the lava waves however, or the name of the debuff you get after a lava wave runs through you. I searched this thread but couldn't find anything. Does anybody know the exact names of this damage/debuff type so I can check the WWS parses?
After killing the 25-version on tuesday without larger problems (25tries overall I think) yesterday was the first time we got a suitable setup to try the 10-man.
We run following:
Feral -> Sartharion
Protwarrior -> Drakes
Unholy-DK with protgear -> Elemental / Whelps
2x Mages (one of them got the my vagilence), 1 Shadow, 1 Moonkin for DPS
After getting some good tries at the beginning of the evening (e.g. vesperon 22% on fourth try) we never got back so far while the evening moved on. I think our main problem was getting a save kill of Tenebron. With or without (didn't matters, the differences were quite low) bloodlust on Tenebron we had problems do get him killed before he hatches for the second time. And a second hatch did it all hasty and dangerous (as you know).
As you can think we did Tenebron -> Whelps / Elementals -> Shadron / Elementals -> Vesperon/Elementals but there were big differences. On some tries wie got Shadron to ~70% when Vesperon gets active on some we still had him on 99%. We found out that the lavawaves are huge issue in terms of DPS. With good waves we had better tries (in terms of DPS) even without bloodlust on tenebron as on tries with bloodlust and bad waves. So later on we even switched the holypriest to do some DPS on Tenebron until the first wave of whelps was hatched which was an bonus of ~50-75k but it didnt bring the save kill_before_2nd_hatch :/
In the dangerous phase with having Shadron and Vesperon on the whole thing got hasty and dangerous because of damagespikes etc. which nearly always ended up in dying of the Sartharion or Elementaltank.
Does anyone got some ideas how we get the whole thing more stable?
Try exchanging your resto shaman for an elemental. If you can, save your heroism for Shadron (helps in healing a lot) and after Shadron is dead, switch one of your hybrids to full-time healing - your MT will take heavy physical damage from Sartharion at this time. Even during Shadron, they should be on their toes and throw out a heal or two if needed. With that much healing power you can ignore the portals until after Vesperon is dead, then go down with your drake tank and one hybrid healing, kill both adds, come back and finish the fight.
E: lava tsunamis can indeed make or break the fight. Too much running around means less DPS and a real danger of one of your tanks dying.
I think this is possible with a wider range of configurations and less synergy than before with everyone generally having a higher level of gear. 3T/3H and 4DPS is very viable and provides a lot of stability if you can get the first drake and adds down. Having the healers DPS Tenebron, such that he dies before spawning a second set of whelps may be needed, however the healing requirement is rather minimal at that stage.
My experience is that if you manage to do this you will almost never wipe if you can also get Shadron down (which I've been seeing from people) -- which is much easier with 3 healers than 2. Of course this is all contingent on the skill of your healers and effectiveness of your DPS but all I'm saying is it's very doable.
For the 10man, we usually use 3tanks 3healer strat. It's pretty much the controlled strat, and you shouldn't expect to kill Tenebron always before he spawns a 2nd set of whelps unless you have very good void zones/walls. At least we don't. We just expect 2 sets of whelps, and we can actually get him down and the adds cleared without bloodlusting. We still bloodlust obviously because it makes it easier especially on healing but we do bloodlust only when shadron is about to land, because that's when it really gets tough(2nd set of whelps and 2drakes up). When the tank has 2 drakes, he should be wary of his cooldown and try to help the healer, and any side healing can help too for raid healing so the 3rd healer can also spam the 2tanks. Paladins are excelent at this because they can beacon the whelps/blaze tank and the drake tank, making their heal twice as efficient.
Thing is, we barely actually need to kill the first set of whelps, it dies to our dps DK and whoever is tanking them(me on some tries, but holydin usually since I tank sartharion). If you pull the whelps and the blazes in melee range, they get hit by a lot of side attacks(whirlwinds, divine storm, but the most brutal of them all, howling blast). They're either extremely low hp or dead by the time the second wave pops, at which point tenebron is dead, and all DPS will AE the 2nd set.
It took us a lot of tries to end up with this strat though, we tried many ways to push dps to only get one wave, but there were too many random factors like walls or heavy blaze spawns early on which would make it not safe enough, while the 3tank 3healer 2expected wave strat is simply about controlling stuff and dealing with it, whatever the situation. DW DKs are INSANE for this however, or for any strat really. At the end of the fight, recount had our DK, who doesn't have that good gear at 6.8k sustained DPS. That takes into account fucking around on sarth before tenebron lands, and no dps inside the phase since recount doesn't handle it.
Some people have mentioned using a Warrior or Paladin MT for this.....how is that even possible? The breath with just the Shadron aura and Shadron disciple buff can do 42000 damage, and with the HP debuff the most a WAR/PAL tank can generally expect to have is around 30-31k. You can't survive that, and that's before Vesperon becomes active. Is it really possible to get enough cooldowns on the tank to keep him alive from Shadron landing to Shadron's death?
Post-patch with Bone Shield nerfed to 20% this is going to get a lot harder as well, the (100% + 50%) breath can still do 29,500 damage (that's after AMS talent, Sanctuary, Frost Presence, and Bone Shield) to a 20% Bone Shielded DK, which could definitely result in a death.
iirc its 3 seconds, although between lag and human reflex delay either you atack instantlly (to play with twilight torment) or you will most probably not save yourself. Even then its touch and go as the debuff can be reaplied instantlly.
I've been working on an Excel sheet for an Unholy MT1 on Sartharion. Mostly for myself, since I found it difficult to get a clear view of how your cooldowns are running in sync with the encounter. I've come up with a rough model of how to best utilize them, leaving at least 5 seconds overlap on cooldowns to make sure they fit even when you don't time them perfectly. I've modelled BS with pretty bad uptime, it usually lasts longer than 25 seconds.
The early usage of cooldowns before the first bone shield is gone is counter-intuitive, but I think it's the best way to make sure those cooldowns are back up on-time for Vesperon. Naturally, it's not possible to model cooldown usage in this fight perfectly, breaths aren't on a strict timer, which makes especially timing AMS/AMZ a bit tricky, but I hope it helps anyways.
For the MT1 healer, one important bit is the gap in mitigation just before Vesperon lands. Some ways that could be solved:
- Having a hunter with the SW talent, but it's cumbersome, I imagine the pet is not in range of the MT1.
- Using the paladin's Sacrifice there, it's problematic since the holy paladin might get hit quite a bit by whelps (depending on your whelp tank) and is far from always within safe health boundaries, further more I'd prefer saving HoS to serve as a backup for after Vesperon's landing, when the shit hits the fan (for example getting really unlucky on BS uptime).
My current spec is: http://tinyurl.com/8y7ybc
I've opted to skip SS, since I spam glyphed Death Strike instead, Butchery is useful when Vesperon has landed and you're not gaining RP from rune abilities, at least more useful than Crit.
Some people have mentioned using a Warrior or Paladin MT for this.....how is that even possible? The breath with just the Shadron aura and Shadron disciple buff can do 42000 damage, and with the HP debuff the most a WAR/PAL tank can generally expect to have is around 30-31k. You can't survive that, and that's before Vesperon becomes active. Is it really possible to get enough cooldowns on the tank to keep him alive from Shadron landing to Shadron's death?
Has anyone tried tanking 3D Sartharion with a Paladin or a Warrior? We always have a druid do it. I tank all drakes, which is tricky only when two of them breathe simultaneously and my healer(s) is(are) dodging a void zone. (No, we don't manage to kill one before the next one lands). One day our feral druids may not be online - shall we postpone the raid then or has it been successfully done? Let me add that we have 5 almost equally geared tanks (first KT kill on November 27th), so gear is not an issue.
Has anyone tried tanking 3D Sartharion with a Paladin or a Warrior? We always have a druid do it. I tank all drakes, which is tricky only when two of them breathe simultaneously and my healer(s) is(are) dodging a void zone. (No, we don't manage to kill one before the next one lands). One day our feral druids may not be online - shall we postpone the raid then or has it been successfully done? Let me add that we have 5 almost equally geared tanks (first KT kill on November 27th), so gear is not an issue.
Did you even read the response posted to your quote?
Has anyone tried tanking 3D Sartharion with a Paladin or a Warrior? We always have a druid do it. I tank all drakes, which is tricky only when two of them breathe simultaneously and my healer(s) is(are) dodging a void zone. (No, we don't manage to kill one before the next one lands). One day our feral druids may not be online - shall we postpone the raid then or has it been successfully done? Let me add that we have 5 almost equally geared tanks (first KT kill on November 27th), so gear is not an issue.
Yeah a warrior can easily tank. Once shadron spawns his adds i get shielded on the next breath. Last stand through the next 2 and then shield through the 4th. By then Vesperon's add is then up. Then you can start using cool downs and removing twilight torment.
I've been working on an Excel sheet for an Unholy MT1 on Sartharion. Mostly for myself, since I found it difficult to get a clear view of how your cooldowns are running in sync with the encounter. I've come up with a rough model of how to best utilize them, leaving at least 5 seconds overlap on cooldowns to make sure they fit even when you don't time them perfectly. I've modelled BS with pretty bad uptime, it usually lasts longer than 25 seconds.
The early usage of cooldowns before the first bone shield is gone is counter-intuitive, but I think it's the best way to make sure those cooldowns are back up on-time for Vesperon. Naturally, it's not possible to model cooldown usage in this fight perfectly, breaths aren't on a strict timer, which makes especially timing AMS/AMZ a bit tricky, but I hope it helps anyways.
For the MT1 healer, one important bit is the gap in mitigation just before Vesperon lands. Some ways that could be solved:
- Having a hunter with the SW talent, but it's cumbersome, I imagine the pet is not in range of the MT1.
- Using the paladin's Sacrifice there, it's problematic since the holy paladin might get hit quite a bit by whelps (depending on your whelp tank) and is far from always within safe health boundaries, further more I'd prefer saving HoS to serve as a backup for after Vesperon's landing, when the shit hits the fan (for example getting really unlucky on BS uptime).
My current spec is: http://tinyurl.com/8y7ybc
I've opted to skip SS, since I spam glyphed Death Strike instead, Butchery is useful when Vesperon has landed and you're not gaining RP from rune abilities, at least more useful than Crit.
I wasn't sure where to post this, the DK Tanking thread or here, lemme know if I should move it. Feedback very much appreciated!
Well that looks overly complicated. I don't understand why you'd want something as complex as this. I just boneshield when Shadron opens his portal and pop my JC trinket, so BS lasts for 2(sometimes 3) breaths. Then I IBF during next breath cast, then AMS next, then usually BS+trinket are back and I use that and do the rotation again. Sometimes before BS is up, depending on how often he breathed, I'll ask for the priest healing me to guardian spirit on next breath, and that's about it. You don't need 100%uptime on cooldowns, only on breath. You also don't need cooldowns before shadron lands, he's weaker than most raid bosses before Tenebron dies and Shadron's disc is up.
As for RP usage, I fail to see why you need Butchery. Only Bone Shield requires GCD free to use, the rest of the time, you should be keeping IT up, and dropping blood runes for Blade Barrier procs(usually use blood boils not to get parried), so you'd be swimming in RP, especially since you're not actually using anything that consumes RP but IBF and AMS.
I think a lot of people overthink sartharion tanking, it's nothing complicated, you just use cooldowns when he breathes, and hit him during breath cast if you have torment up. If your gear is a bit meh, you tank switch with the drake tank once all drakes are dead, else you just keep tanking, and that's about it.
Has anyone tried tanking 3D Sartharion with a Paladin or a Warrior?
We killed 10man Sarth3D with a warrior as main tank. Our setup was 3T/3H with warrior on Sarth, feral on drakes and DK on blazes and hatchlings.
Our warrior tank was at 40.5k health and used the -2% spell damage meta. For cooldowns we used Shieldwall for first breath when the Shadron Acolyte spawns. Then we used Last Stand for the next two breaths. After we used Hand of Sacrifice, Spirit Guardian and finally the DK anti-magic bubble. To be 100% sure we used a Mighty Fire Pot, Nightmare Seed or priest shield for all 30% cooldowns.
In the end our MT just didn't bother with Trying to remove Twilight Torment. We just didn't seem find a proper timing for it. Removing it hurt us more than it helped.
We planned on 2 waves of hatchlings and used heroism on Shadron once we survived the second wave of adds. To make adds more manageable Divine Hymn is nice. We enter portals once all drakes are down and just live with Twilight Torment until then. Healers and our Blaze OT stayed out, while the drake tank and all DPS entered the portal. Our spriest was healing the tank inside of the portal.
As a DK tank on the 10man version, I've found trying to specifically remove Twilight Torment to be more harm than good also. Honestly with standard rotation and everything going on, I never saw it up for more than a fraction of a second at any given time, was never an issue.
Also just wanted to note that I tried Spell Deflection last night figuring that the chances of getting RNG'd by it during AMS were pretty slim, but apparently it's even more bugged than previously reported. Simply having the talent completely disables any absorption by AMS or AMZ. They simply won't work at all, regardless of whether or not it procs. I really hope they fixed that in the patch.
01/14/09, 1:05 PM
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