I appreciate the links; I suppose I should have specified more however. I'm looking for a Sarth10 +3 kill WWS from post-patch. While instructive, it looks like your actual kill was Sarth +1, and that's not exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks though.

No it was a buggered WWS because I didn’t get a log from someone who didn’t take the portal. I'm hoping to have this fixed for you when I get home from work. It was a 3 drake kill.

Wow Web Stats should cover the entire fight. It does have the problem of missing the data for when you were in the portal.

For WWS where it fails to handle fights like Malygos or Sartharion correctly, it's possible to enter in a custom split by changing the url to s="beginning of fight A"-"end of fight B".

Are you sure about the barkskin? If yes, I suspect the second line is because of the first. I'm not sure a single 20% mitigation ability would let a tank (even a druid tank) survive a fully-buffed flame breath, particularly in 25man. Possibly with an FR potion?

I ask because I'm trying to arrange a raid comp for our Sarth10+3 attempts (new guild) and one of the biggest strategic considerations is survival cooldowns on the Sarth tank. This is made more complicated by the fact that we don't have access to any holy priests. In Sarth10+3, is a single 30% mitigation buff (e.g. Hand of Sac, Divine Guardian, Roar of Sac), stacked with the 12% bearform reduction and 3% from BoSanc or vigilance, enough to keep a feral tank up through a fully-buffed breath? I know that numerically it's enough to reduce the damage to less than the feral's max health (at least in our case, ~54k pre-aura), but I don't know how easy it is to top up your feral prior to every breath, or to heal them up before the first post-breath melee attack. Empirically, have guilds succeeded in 10man with just one 30% mitigation cooldown per fully-buffed breath, or should we be shooting for more?

Additionally, with vigilance and the new 30yd taunt, I'm tempted to try to 2-tank Sarth10+3. The main downsides I see are a) not having a (very bored post-Tenebron-whelps) spare tank to taunt Sarth and shieldwall for one of the breath cooldowns, b) having to have a DPS tank the acolytes once Shadron is dead, c) having Fade Armor on your drake tank, and d) having to have the drake tank move farther left/right on waves to keep blazes from enraging. Is having Fade Armor on a tank with two drakes on him healable? Are there additional downsides I'm not considering? The upside would of course be burning through Shadron faster with another DPS.

Maximum breath on 25-man is 73826. After PotP (-12%), Sanctuary (-3%) and meta (-2%) it becomes 61757.

a 20% cooldown like Barkskin will reduce it further to 49400
a 30% cooldown like Blessing of Sacrifice alone will reduce it to 43229
a 20% and 30% cooldowns combined will reduce it to 34583

So on 25-man Barkskin or Blessing of Sacrifice aren't enough to make the worst breaths survivable even for a druid tanks health. You'd need to combine Barkskin with a blessing of Sacrifice for it to be enough. This is probably why their raid kept losing the Sartharion tank.

AFAIK On 10-man the maximum breath is 57383 or 48002 after modifiers.

a 20% cooldown wiill reduce it to 38401
a 30% cooldown will reduce it to 33601

If your feral has 54k per-aura health, they'll have 40.5k post-aura. That'll give you a 2k health buffer for barkskin alone for the worst possible breath, and a comfortable 7k buffer for 30% cooldowns. The worst possible breaths are also fairly rare, because you'll often resist a little bit of each breath. You should be ok with the 30% cooldowns as long as you top the tank off both before and after the breaths quickly.

Well there's a few things about having a tank tank everything. First as far as I can tell, only DKs and Paladins can do it well. Aggroing and keeping all the whelps on you while still tanking tenebron and possibly shadron requires plenty of AE threat and I'm not sure other tanks can do it. And you still need to pickup blazes. You also need a rather good one, because there's plenty of stuff to do. It's extremely cluttered in melee range, so void zones are hard to see, and keeping the drakes facing away from the raid when it's full of whelps that make the drake move to reposition all the time is hard, especially with walls.

Then you have the mitigation issues. With a DK tank, to be honest, whelps tanking isn't too bad. You do it as frost most likely, you pop lichborne, it's like 15s of almost melee immunity. You pop AMS then IBF when drakes overlap to mitigate breath. The issue starts when Vesperon lands and you get twilight torment, because the drake combined breath+random blazes hitting you can be devastating if it all aligns. I haven't checked on 10man but on 25man, non enraged blaze hit my very well geared DK for 6-8k during the shadron/torment overlap, which is not negligible when you also have 2drakes hitting/breathing on you, and potential fire cyclones landing on you.

With proper planning and smart cooldown usage, I'd say it'd be not that hard really. The biggest issue is teaching your ranged dps to run closer to the tank when they have a blaze so it's picked up by AEs because single targetting every mob takes a ton of time, time which you don't spend generating threat on the drakes.

Does the +25% damage buff after Tenebron dies apply to the breaths as well as the melee?

After watching my Fraps of +2 from a while ago it looks like it does, but if it does then I'm going to have to do some re-calculations...

EDIT: I think it doesn't... but I was hit for 7722 (2194 resisted) (9916 damage) with all drakes and acolytes dead when the max I should be hit for is 9900 (11250 * 0.88).. No idea what's going on there.. I can get a screenshot if needed

The +25% damage and attack speed for each drake you kill only effects Sartharions melee abilities.

The ability used by the three drakes to buff Sartharion upon their deaths is Twilight Revenge, and can be found here: Twilight Revenge - Spell - World of Warcraft

"increases Physical damage and attack speed by 25%" per stack. The fire breath stop being a serious issue once Shadron is down, but the melee damage becomes nontrivial.

Our first 10man kill was pre 3.0.8.
The set up:
- DK tank on Sartharion
- Paladin tank on whelps
- Druid tank on dragons
- Paladin healing the DK
- Holy priest healing the other tanks+raid
- 1 moonkin switching to healing when Vesperon landed and entering the portal to heal dps inside
- 4 regular dps

Kill order:
Tenebron (ignoring portals) -> AoE whelps -> Shadron (ignore portal) -> acolytes in portal -> Vesperon (with portal entering) -> Sartharion.
Note: when we started to dps Shadron, Vesperon already landed.

With the change to Twilight Torment ignoring portal when Vesperon lands seems to be impossible. Not to mention that our druid who is tanking the dragons is taking really huge dmg when Shadron and Vesperon are active. Because of that we left our healing moonkin up to aid with healing that tank full time but that ment that I needed to heal inside the portal which lowered the damage there too. Funny thing was that also healing inside the portal was rather hard. We don't have any plate wearing dps but still our enh shaman took less dmg on our kill than on yesterday tries - in fact he died once below my regrowth cast time (1.27sec) and even when he didn't die I was praying each of my spammed nourish lands.

I am actually wondering if due to all this dmg increase on raid and OTs we shouldn't go back to 3 healer tactic and maybe have 1 healer just dps thru Tenebron. On our pre 3.0.8 learning nights we did have problem with burning her down before 2nd hatch with 4 dps (in fact it all depend on the waves more than on heroism - if we didn't have to run a lot it was ok ... and if waves were annoying even with hero she did hatch eggs 2 times)

With the change in twilight torment and increase in adds it seems Blizzard is pushing towards a more "control adds and portals while slowly killing drakes" strategy instead of "ignore adds and acolytes while you zerg drakes". Both these changes make it significantly harder to "power" yourself through the drakes and get to the point where Shadron is dead.

This week, after some wipes during the Shadron + Vesperon phase because the DPS would just kill themselves over and over again, we ended up switching the heroism to Shadron *just* to get hasted healing. And I've always been a strong advocate of using it on Tenebron :-)

I also had two ranged dps (in our case two warlocks, but two hunters is probably better because they can tranq them when they enrage) signle-target DPS the fire elemental adds to keep them under control. AoEing them while Vesperon's acolyte is alive is just not an option and ignoring them until the acolyte is dead will result in a swift death of your add tank.

It took us five or six attempts to get the kill, while we have been 1-shotting it for the past three weeks so I can imagine it being a lot harder to learn now.

It makes things really easy for the semi dangerous periods.

IE.
Shadron up, shadron acolyte up

and

Shadron down, but shadron acolyte/vesperon acoylte up

Both of these a blood dk(with appropriate health) can survive with no cooldowns(where as unholy could die without bone shield up and the high range of the breath). The ultra dangerous period of every buff on sartharion is handled basically the same as a unholy dk(ie boneshield is not enough alone, and vampiric blood is not enough alone) using ams->ibf->external help->ams->ibf.

While we haven't gotten the kill yet we have put together a strategy that keeps the Sarth-25 tank alive through all the breaths. We've killed Shadron and then wiped a couple times for stupid reasons so we aren't that far off but you can keep that in mind.

We use a disc priest and a holy paladin as the MT healers and I tank him with 41.8k health after the debuff, ~56k fully raid buffed. With the disc priest on me full time I am guaranteed a 3 stack of grace which I don't know if it stacks with Sanctuary/Vigilance but if it does that is additional additional damage reduction that needs to be taken into account. I don't believe it does but I thought it was worth mentioning.

The primary use of the disc priest is to put up a shield during each breath cast. Our disc priests shield absorbs 8-9k which coupled with barkskin pushes me to surviving with ~1-2k health on the worst case scenario.

I usually use a nightmare seed and Barkskin on the first one which puts me at 43.5k health + an 8k adsorb (worst case here). The priest shields as soon as he sees the breath casting since Sarth stops swinging and then immediately casts penance to give a buffer before the paladin's Holy Light lands.

If the second breath comes before weakened soul fades then Barkskin is still up since both have a 15 second duration but now I will die to a max breath so I use Survival Instincts which brings my health to 43.5k*1.3=56.5k which is more than enough to survive the breath. If Barkskin has faded so has weakened soul which means I have 56.5k health + a 8k adsorb which is enough to survive a worst case scenario even without a damage reduction cooldown and have 3k health left. Nightmare seed fades after this second breath dropping my Survival Instincts to 54.6k.

The third breath is dependant on two things, if Survival Instincts is still up all I need is a PW:S and I will survive again. If it is down we use Hand of Sacrifice combined with Divine Guardian to lessen the raid healing. If I have weakened soul and Survival Instincts up I will still need the Sacrifice to survive a worst case.

After this third breath my survival is reliant on the healers cooldowns. I save a Fire Protection Pot for the unlikely scenario of Weakened Soul + Sacrifice when I'm out of cooldowns which is enough to save me. And after the 4th breath Barkskin should be up for the 5th which lets you repeat the first step again, albeit with less leeway on your health.

Worst case you get 4 breaths, two of which are entirely under the druids control and best case you get 6 which should be more than enough to kill Shadron and move on for the kill. Sorry for the length of the post but I wanted to show how stam geared druid can survive with just using Barkskin and no other cooldown while intelligently chaining cooldowns to extend the number of breaths you can absorb.

Thanks for the tip with the blood tank. I've had our Sartharion tank respecc this night and we got the kill (10 man).

We killed all three drakes before bothering with portals, mainly because the portal people died on every attempt we made where they should kill the acolyte(s). 100% Twilight Torment uptime was certainly stressful for our healers but it worked better for us than taking portals and downing acolytes.

How many healers/tanks/dps did you have? I'm wondering if 2 healer, 2 tank without taking portals is still doable with the twilight torment change.

We did it with three tank/healer + four DPS, running with two healers is difficult, you should at least have an elemental shaman or moonkin which can switch to healing when Twilight Torment is up.

Our set up is almost same as yours, pre 3.08 we had durid MT sath but after patch durid keep dying on 4th to 5th bearth so we switch to a DK MT our priest told is much easier to keep him up, so we had druids on drake and pala on adds, we also tried to save BL on shardon but always have second set of whelps and kept us wiped badly due to the messy with over 15 whelps up, after that we tried us BL on tenebron and we can managed to only have 1 set whelps but still most of time when tenebron dead durid try to bring shardon to vers that point people starting dying from fire wall or void zone etc or MT dying .

Our pala healer or reti pala also afried to use Hand of Sacrifice on MT they think if transfering 30% damage to them they might die in a sec , can anybody tell me would this happen if pala use Hand of Sacrifice for MT would it get the healer or reti pala kill ?

Also on # 277 urotas that post he mention the rotation for DK below :
1st breath : Anti-Magic Shell
2nd breath : Icebound Fortitude
3rd breath : Bone Shield + Anti-Magic Zone
4th breath : Anti-Magic Shell or Bone Shield + outside cooldown
5th breath: Anti-Magic Shell or outside cooldown or Icebound Fortitude (if it's off cooldown)
6th breath: Icebound Fortitude or outside cooldown

The 1st breath is starting count on shardon land or when the MT starting tank Sath as 1st breath ?

Our MT usualy died on the bearth when we killed tenebron between aoe whelps that moment , which beath is that if anyone know ? 5th or 6th beath ? and if really save for the pala use Hand of Sacrifice ?


Thanks a lot

I think you misunderstand breaths and DK cooldowns. 1st breath isn't like, first breath in the fight, it's first breath after Shadron spawns his disciple(so after he lands), or depending on the spec can be 1st breath after torment is up(vesperon lands). If your tank is dieing to breaths around tenebron's death, then he's not geared enough, or your healers aren't healing enough. Tenebron probably dies before shadron even spawns his disciple, which is when the fight starts for the MT because at that point surviving breaths requires either cooldown, blood spec, or feral druid. Or luck, or all possible magic dmg reduction and high stamina pull, but that's another story.

You can use Hand of Sacrifice together with Divine Shield, has been done pretty often.
I would probably recommend using it while Shadron lives and Twilight Torment is up, since
that's the critical time, not earlier.

How can discpriest shield's absorb 8 to 9k? We don't have a active discpriest but wauw that's alot of absorb. Checking talents I can only find 15% increased absorb + 40% of spellpower. Even with 2500 spellpower I don't even get near the 9k absorbs. What am I missing here?

It doesn't. A very well geared disc priest, raid buffed, should be getting ~6-6.5k pw:s absorbs (without a flask or trinket proc/use effect). The poster above probably searched a WWS log for flame breath absorbs and assumed the entire value for each was just from pw:s, or the priest had some (very large) temporary spellpower buffs.

A divine aegis proc from a crit gheal will absorb about 4-4.5k. A divine aegis from penance will absorb about 1.5k. A sacred shield proc will absorb about 2.5k. When these effects stack, they make the combat log show larger absorb numbers. For example, a pw:s with a divine aegis from a flash heal produced this on our last 25man sarth+3: "18:53'49.328 Sartharion Flame Breath hits Hooray for 19411 Fire. (1810 Resisted) (8405 Absorbed)". Other abilities such as divine guardian and hand of sacrifice also use the absorb mechanic and create large absorb numbers in the combat log.

Even more fun when the tank is a blood DK. Yesterday I had a 4k breath, with like 30k absorb(spell deflection counts an absorb, and wotn might too unsure).