Sartharion and Company (3 Drakes) - Discussion - Page 19

thalys · 02/12/09, 1:18 PM

They're on a 2.5 (less haste, presumably) second cooldown. It's his autoattack.

19:51'12.641 Bigwojo attack failed. Sartharion was immune.
19:51'15.016 Bigwojo attack failed. Sartharion was immune.
19:51'17.359 Bigwojo attack failed. Sartharion was immune.
19:51'19.766 Bigwojo attack failed. Sartharion was immune.
19:51'22.266 Bigwojo attack failed. Sartharion was immune.
19:51'24.656 Bigwojo attack failed. Sartharion was immune.
19:51'27.063 Bigwojo attack failed. Sartharion was immune.
19:51'29.734 Bigwojo attack failed. Sartharion was immune.
19:51'32.000 Bigwojo attack failed. Sartharion was immune.
19:51'34.406 Bigwojo attack failed. Sartharion was immune.
19:51'36.953 Bigwojo attack failed. Sartharion was immune.
19:51'39.469 Bigwojo attack failed. Sartharion was immune.

He had stopped, so he did something to trigger it again. Could have fat-fingered it, I know I've done the same thing. I wouldn't think he has attack bound into a macro, because nothing else happened at 51'12.641 or the vicinity for him. In any event, he was autoattacking, no matter what he claims. Perhaps he right-clicked Sartharion after tabbing around, or something equally silly and easy to do by mistake.

Katathia · 02/12/09, 1:34 PM

Originally Posted by thalys

They're on a 2.5 (less haste, presumably) second cooldown. It's his autoattack.

19:51'12.641 Bigwojo attack failed. Sartharion was immune.
19:51'15.016 Bigwojo attack failed. Sartharion was immune.
19:51'17.359 Bigwojo attack failed. Sartharion was immune.

-snip-

Perhaps he right-clicked Sartharion after tabbing around, or something equally silly and easy to do by mistake.

OK thanks for having a look at the WWS. I'll talk to him about having his auto-attack key on his UI so he's aware of it. Can thorns be proc'ing the TT as well or just the auto-attack?

kalbear · 02/12/09, 2:28 PM

Just the autoattack. Thorns doesn't do anything.

Boytaur · 02/12/09, 5:00 PM

Could find this on the thread...how exactly does Twilight Torment work? Is there an ICD on it proccing?

Do dot applications set it off? Dot ticks? Targetted AOE? (I didn't notice it proccing when I was using Hurricane on the adds.)

Rayeth · 02/12/09, 7:33 PM

I find it likely that AoE would not trigger Twilight Torment. Considering it can get around spell reflects in much the same way, I suspect Twilight Torment won't proc on spells that do not "target" specific mobs.

Yeoldelock · 02/12/09, 7:48 PM

Originally Posted by Rayeth

I find it likely that AoE would not trigger Twilight Torment. Considering it can get around spell reflects in much the same way, I suspect Twilight Torment won't proc on spells that do not "target" specific mobs.

Correct, our GM noticed this during last week's run.

Miraishikou · 02/12/09, 7:59 PM

Originally Posted by Boytaur

Could find this on the thread...how exactly does Twilight Torment work? Is there an ICD on it proccing?

Do dot applications set it off? Dot ticks? Targetted AOE? (I didn't notice it proccing when I was using Hurricane on the adds.)

I don't believe there is an internal cooldown. Dot applications certainly set it off, while dot ticks do not.

Pitbuller · 02/12/09, 8:41 PM

Originally Posted by Miraishikou

I don't believe there is an internal cooldown. Dot applications certainly set it off, while dot ticks do not.

There is two second ICD. This prevent rogues doing instant suicide. If you parse WWS log you will see clear 2s + (0-0.5s) pattern here. This is very good example.

22:35'27.496	Woodooman Twilight Torment hits Woodooman for 2038 Shadow. (801 Resisted)
22:35'29.496	Woodooman Twilight Torment hits Woodooman for 2303 Shadow. (582 Resisted)

TeKniciaN · 02/12/09, 10:52 PM

anyone noticing higher raid damage taken after the patch on tuesday?

we did our weekly run last night and were wiping hard as soon as torment popped up. Im not sure what the deal is, i think some info about lava strike coming in more frequent and the changes to twilight torment have upped the raid damage considerably.

anyone notice anything like that?

LittleHamster · 02/13/09, 4:12 AM

Originally Posted by TeKniciaN

anyone noticing higher raid damage taken after the patch on tuesday?

we did our weekly run last night and were wiping hard as soon as torment popped up. Im not sure what the deal is, i think some info about lava strike coming in more frequent and the changes to twilight torment have upped the raid damage considerably.

anyone notice anything like that?

No, not the slightest. Lava strikes and lava blazes are random. And twilight torment change was from 3.0.8. However, on the same patch, tenebron was changed to not fly away to hatch eggs. I found the faster killing of tenebron reduces the time overlap of shadron and vesperon. This compensates the higher twilight torment damage for us.

Zehn · 02/13/09, 10:16 AM

On 25man there seems to be 2 different opinions on whether to take portals or not...

1) Either ignore them all until drake is dead. Or
2) Ignore shadron's until shadron dead. But always kill vesperon's acolyte whenever he is up.

Am intrigued whether people have tried the 'kill vesperon's acoltye' whenever he is up approach in 10man.

Is it a viable tactic to avoiding breaths or do you lose too much time on vesperon that you are better off sucking it up.

Liar · 02/13/09, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by Ryanb

There are some advantages to all melee. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you - a full caster group will probably do better DPS. But, consider your Whelp / Elemental tank. They probably have the most difficult job simply due to the randomness of the encounter. If say, an elemental spawns right as a lava wave is coming and it gets enraged right away - then it aggros a clothie (for whatever reason), he can crit him and one shot him. If a stray elemental aggros a Ret Paladin or a Fury Warrior? Big deal.

I don't really get that argument. Blazes melee for Fire damage which ignores armor so your Fury Warrior in this scenario is actually taking more damage than a cloth class. They may have a bit more health than cloth casters but usually that doesn't buy them enough time for a 2nd/3rd hit (if one crits/no crits, respectively). On top of that, the Ret Pala and the Fury Warrior use Consecrate and WW in their normal rotation so pulling adds off of them is also harder than from cloth casters.

Originally Posted by Zehn

Am intrigued whether people have tried the 'kill vesperon's acoltye' whenever he is up approach in 10man.

Is it a viable tactic to avoiding breaths or do you lose too much time on vesperon that you are better off sucking it up.

I think we tried it once or twice before deciding against it. You just lose too much DPS from hopping in and out and generally, our DK tank has enough CDs to last him through the hard bits if we manage to kill all drakes in time.

Pyros · 02/13/09, 1:44 PM

What we do in 10man is kill Tenebron, clear whelps, wait until ~15secs on the DBM vesperon landing timer, go into portal, kill shadron acolyte, kill vesperon acolyte(which spawns while in the portal), rekill shadron's if the timing was a bit off, go out, do like 50% off shadron until the acolytes repop, go back in, kill stuff, go out, finish shadron(acolytes usually respawn a bit before he dies) and keep going in everytime vesperon acolyte is up. It's slow, but it's much easier to heal so not really an issue. 3tanks 2healers setup, with an hybrid DPS healing(ele sham or moonkin). I think brute forcing shadron is quite risky, unless you run 2, possibly just one paladin with the AE -30% prot talent. Then again it'll depend I guess, we just couldn't get it to work, so we went for a "safe" kill.

Vashanka · 02/13/09, 5:17 PM

Normally what we do is kill Tenebron, clear whelps, go through the portal as Vesperon is landing. We kill only the Vesperon acolyte, go back up top, and dps Shadron until he dies without going back down. We go through after he dies, kill both, and then kill Vesperon without going back down, then clear the acolyte one last time after Vesperon dies before we get on Sartharion. Seems to work very well for us, and it doesn't really drag it out too long. Our DK survives this way just fine without outside CDs.

Sair · 02/13/09, 7:55 PM

Has anyone had similar experiences / know of reasons why Tenebron's eggs would not hatch? This week we had a woefully easy kill when the eggs in Tenebron's realm didn't hatch and remained in the twilight realm for the duration of the fight.

Our Tenebron kill speed was no faster than normal (he was within ~5% by the time Shadron landed, and died shortly aftewards), so I do believe we did get the message that he began to hatch eggs in the twilight realm. Not sure what caused it or how to reproduce it, but if it's something that's non-exploitable I could see it being handy, if you have no qualms about cheesing the encounter.

Villeraz · 02/14/09, 5:43 AM

Originally Posted by Sair

Has anyone had similar experiences / know of reasons why Tenebron's eggs would not hatch? This week we had a woefully easy kill when the eggs in Tenebron's realm didn't hatch and remained in the twilight realm for the duration of the fight.

Our Tenebron kill speed was no faster than normal (he was within ~5% by the time Shadron landed, and died shortly aftewards), so I do believe we did get the message that he began to hatch eggs in the twilight realm. Not sure what caused it or how to reproduce it, but if it's something that's non-exploitable I could see it being handy, if you have no qualms about cheesing the encounter.

Some weeks ago, there used to a considerable gap in time between him opening a portal and spawning eggs, and him hatching them. Killing him in between those two events led to unhatched eggs. They have since patched it such that there seems to be almost no time in between the two raid warnings provided, but I imagine with precise timing of his death during the spawning of the eggs but before he hatches them, you could have unhatched eggs kept throughout the fight. The window seems narrow enough that it is not really controllable.

kaib · 02/14/09, 8:35 AM

The problem with going in and killing vesperons spawn inside in 10 men is that it requires a lot better execution as in 25 men due to more jobs that require to be done:
sarth tank
drake tank
blaze tank outside
spawn tank inside
2 healers outside
1 healer inside
best poissible dps inside

Filling those rolls with a 25 men raid is obviously no problem. With a 10 men setup you will run into issues. Sure, some of those jobs can be done by the same person, but for example if you use a caster setup, finding the 4th tank will already be a big problem. If you are melee heavy, it is no problem really. Just use a dps dk/dps wariror/ret pala. All of these can do sufficient tanking in and outside.
It's certainly a very viable option to jump in and out, but it just makes things a lot more complicated and some people have to fullfill a lot of different roles while not fucking up.
Outhealing twilight torment on the other hand is easier execution wise, but taking portals is probably a cleaner and better repeatable (read: less random stuff can happen) if you have the setup for it and people won't make individual mistakes.

Vashanka · 02/14/09, 4:03 PM

Yea, we deal with portals on 10 man by having myself (fury warrior) board up and dstance and tank it while an elemental shaman heals me.

Kellhus · 02/16/09, 2:44 AM

We beat 10 man 3D (25 3d two weeks prior)this week, and we used:

Tanks: DK (sarth), feral druid (drakes), prot warrior (adds)
Healers; shaman/ priest /paladin
DPS: Boomkin, Unholy DK, Shadow Priest, Mage

We tried a few approaches but settled on Bloodlust as Tenebron landed, it gave us time to kill Tenebron, clear adds, and put a bite into Shaddron before Vesperson was on the ground. The kill on shaddron was stressful but well communicated between healers and tank CDs -- then the fight slowed down on Vesperon so the healers could catch their breath, Vesp dies, and then we took the portals down to kill the acolytes.

We tried quite a while as 3tank/2healer, but honestly for us 3tank/3healer just offered so much more control over the fight that it clicked on a single night of attempts. Also it allowed us to see this fight is not any measure of a dps race, which was in the end the largest hurdle for us to overcome. This fight is simply a measure of your ability to troubleshoot your raids specific problems and account for them - there is no correct composition globally, just the one that ends up working for you.

proga · 02/16/09, 3:17 AM

Does anyone else trying to tank Sart10+3 with VoidWalker?

We just killed him 2 days ago with that tactic and it seems easier than with our druid (55k HP buffed before -25% debuff).
We killed Sart10+3 first time 3 weeks ago (before 3.0.8) and then couldn't do it for 2 weeks (maybe because we haven't our holy pala for those 2 weeks but still). And we finally did it this week, but with VW tanking.

Our warlock geared for stamina and had 38k HP buffed and his VW had 71k HP buffed. 1 Discipline priest together with Warlock himself were able to keep him alive whole fight.

Our setup was:
Warlock MT
2 prot warriors (1 for all big drakes, 1 for small adds - me)
2 fury warriors
1 retri paladin
1 enh shaman

1 Disc priest
1 Holy pala
1 Resto druid

Snegel · 02/16/09, 8:31 AM

Hi folks,

yesterday we had one of our smoothes sarth3d 25 kills ever so i took a clother look at our wws and there's something i don't understand. Here is the relevant part:

20:05'00.389 Sartharion Flame Breath hits Lykaria for 11158 Fire. (2518 Resisted) (6034 Absorbed)
20:05'10.830 Sartharion Flame Breath hits Lykaria for 21970 Fire.
20:05'26.443 Sartharion Flame Breath hits Lykaria for 17015 Fire. (1107 Resisted)
20:05'45.723 Sartharion Flame Breath hits Lykaria for 16599 Fire. (2431 Resisted)
20:05'57.514 Sartharion Flame Breath hits Lykaria for 18236 Fire. (1187 Resisted)
20:06'09.080 Sartharion Flame Breath hits Lykaria for 19381 Fire. (1261 Resisted)
20:06'54.491 Sartharion Flame Breath hits Lykaria for 25603 Fire. (1666 Resisted)
20:07'12.223 Sartharion Flame Breath hits Lykaria for 14970 Fire. (140 Absorbed)
20:07'28.289 Sartharion Flame Breath hits Lykaria for 13373 Fire. (1776 Resisted) (5732 Absorbed)
20:07'41.029 Sartharion Flame Breath hits Lykaria for 26894 Fire. (2000 Resisted)
20:07'49.412 Sartharion Flame Breath hits Lykaria for 27485 Fire. (2044 Resisted)
20:08'05.446 Sartharion Flame Breath hits Lykaria for 20075 Fire. (5760 Resisted)
20:08'25.137 Sartharion Flame Breath hits Lykaria for 23396 Fire. (3916 Resisted)
20:08'41.999 Sartharion Flame Breath hits Lykaria for 22073 Fire. (2052 Resisted)
20:08'55.305 Sartharion Flame Breath hits Lykaria for 9493 Fire. (1236 Resisted)
20:09'17.639 Sartharion Flame Breath hits Lykaria for 5311 Fire. (2320 Resisted) (2611 Absorbed)
20:09'30.522 Sartharion Flame Breath hits Lykaria for 10419 Fire. (1374 Resisted) (140 Absorbed)
20:09'45.210 Sartharion Flame Breath hits Lykaria for 9703 Fire. (1263 Resisted)
20:09'54.562 Sartharion Flame Breath hits Lykaria for 9488 Fire. (1235 Resisted)
20:10'05.385 Sartharion Flame Breath hits Lykaria for 5413 Fire.
20:10'30.395 Sartharion Flame Breath hits Lykaria for 9002 Fire. (1172 Resisted)

Tenebron died at 20:06'05
Shadron "entered" combat at 20:06'12 (he got the first sa from the tank) and died at 20:07'09
Vesperon entered at 20:06'55 and died at 20:08'15
Sarth somewhat later, doesnt matter

So obviously it was nearly impossible to get a real "big breath" simply because there were only 15 seconds between the entering of Vesp and the dead of Shadron. Luckily to our dps

What I'm not getting right now, is how the breaths dmg is calculated. The breath at 20:06'54.491 seems to be with Shadrons Akolyte spawned, but isn't it a little bit low? Furthermore, the breaths from 20:07'41.029 up to 20:08'41.999 are the highest ever occured, but only Vesperons Akolyte was alive, so it would have been breath-basedmg*1,75 which should result in something around <20k or am I completely wrong?

strawberryfm · 02/16/09, 9:35 AM

Originally Posted by Snegel

[...] Furthermore, the breaths from 20:07'41.029 up to 20:08'41.999 are the highest ever occured, but only Vesperons Akolyte was alive, so it would have been breath-basedmg*1,75 which should result in something around <20k or am I completely wrong?

According to wowhead (Flame Breath - Spell - World of Warcraft) the highest breath in 25 man is 14062, 14062*1.75=24608.5, so there is definately some damage enchancing buff/debuff other than Twilight Torment at play aswell (unless Wowhead is wrong). I can't think of what it could be though..

• Melthu · 02/16/09, 10:35 AM

If you could give us a link to the WWS it would help, but I'm pretty certain the culprit is Shadron's Acolyte still being up. The breath at 20:06'54.491 matches perfectly with Shadron's aura, his acolyte's buff, and a 10% resist: 11109 X 1.5 (Gift of Twilight) X 2 (Power of Shadron) X 0.97 (Grace/BoS) X 0.88 (Protector of the Pack, assuming your tank was a druid) X 0.9 (10% resist) = 25603. As for the breaths between 20:07'41.029 and 20:08'41.999, they only make sense if Shadron's acolyte was still up.

Myul · 02/16/09, 10:36 AM

I found this somewhere on the board some time ago but can't find the source.

Highest possible multiplier is x5.25 and highest breath damages are 73.826 at 25 man and 59.063 at 10 man.

Snegel · 02/16/09, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Melthu

If you could give us a link to the WWS it would help, but I'm pretty certain the culprit is Shadron's Acolyte still being up. (...) As for the breaths between 20:07'41.029 and 20:08'41.999, they only make sense if Shadron's acolyte was still up.

Sure, here you are:
Wow Web Stats

You guessed right, it was a feral tank and indeed I forgot Protector of the pack, so this mysterium is solved, thanks

The last "high" breath at 20:08'41.999 occured ~90s after Shadrons death, would mean the acolyte spawned moments before Shadrons death if I'm not totally wrong now, but seems to be the solution. Is there any possibility to find out when the acolytes died/despawned via the wws?

Thx for the nice Excel-sheet anyways.