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Old 01/29/09, 6:58 PM   #361
Traithan
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Silver Hand
Originally Posted by Pyros View Post
Even more fun when the tank is a blood DK. Yesterday I had a 4k breath, with like 30k absorb(spell deflection counts an absorb, and wotn might too unsure).
Can you confirm that Spell Deflection works on AoE abilities like breaths now? Previous testing had led me to believe that it only works if the spell is cast directly at you (ie, KT's Frostbolt). Things that hit multiple targets (like breaths) didn't work. But if it DOES work now, I'll be very happy.

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Old 01/30/09, 4:47 AM   #362
Bharlin
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Priest
 
Die Silberne Hand (EU)
Post Patch 3.0.8 S+3/10 Kill

Some people have reported, that the kill order Tenebron-->Adds-->Shadron-->Akolyte-->Vesperon would be unlikely to pull off post patch due to the increased raid damage caused by Vesperon's Akolyte.

We managed to get our first S+3 nonheroic kill yesterday (a bit ridiculous, 7 weeks after our clear of the heroic version) with a 3 Tank / 2 Healer Castersetup with an Elemental Shaman switching to healing once things got critical (i.e. Vesperon showing up) and we found that entering the portal as soon as the Vesperon Akolyte spawned and killing him just didn't work out for us. Something always seemed to be going wrong and by extending the time in which both Shadron and Vesperon are active (which you obviously do when portal dancing) you also run a higher risk of getting your drake tank double-breathed.

So, after about two hours of trying we changed our strategy from Heroism on Tenebron and killing Vesperons Akolyte as soon as it showed up to heroism on Shadron (most of the time we managed to avoid a second set of whelps) and suffer through the raid damage until Shadron is dead before entering the twilight zone. It was really rough for the healers, despite having two paladins pop bubble with Divine Guardian one after another and our Moonkin throwing in Tranquility after bubbles went out, but ultimately it worked out and we managed to get the kill. As soon as Shadron dies the fight is pretty much over.

As someone asked to include a postpatch WWS of the fight in the 10 man version, here you go:

Wow Web Stats

Last edited by Bharlin : 01/30/09 at 6:39 PM.

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Old 01/30/09, 8:28 AM   #363
Vaccine
Mr. Sandman
 
Vaccine's Avatar
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
We adopted the exact same strat last night with a similar setup. We found it better to use Bloodlust on Tenebron though as things are less hectic, the DPS still adds up as you get to start on Shadron eariler.

We did find though that the fight is not over when Shadron died, we wiped 2-3 times when we got to just Vesperon as the drake tank damage seemed to be significantly higher than when he had two on him. I'm not sure what happened as I couldn't see it but I suspect the drake tank was going to town on Vesperon and getting smacked for all the TT damage every second. Also the increase in physical damage from Sartharion isn't trivial. It is unfortunate we only got to that poitn so late in the raid, going back tonight to kill hopefully.

We didn't bother killing the portal adds after Shadron though, there doesn't seem much point when he spawns them so fast anyway. Maybe we will try that tonight but I doubt it for all the extra trouble it causes.

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Old 01/30/09, 11:34 AM   #364
Marcos
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Greymane
Originally Posted by Frozenn View Post
With the twilight torment change, any tips on tanking sarth+3 10 man as a paladin? Or is it plain not possible since we can't stack enough people with defensive cooldowns to survive the time shadron and vesperon are up?
First, what is your buffed health using your raid composition while under the effect of Power of Vesperon?

Second, do you have any trinkets which can boost your maximum health for a short period of time, ie. [Repelling Charge]?
Third, here is a list of life-saving measures possible (probably non-exhaustive):

Divine Protection: -50% damage taken for 12 seconds without T7 4-pc bonus.
Diving Guardian + Hand of Sacrifice from another Paladin: -30% * -30% (or -51%) damage taken for 12 seconds.
Pain Suppression + Power Word: Shield: -40%(?) damage taken for 8 seconds.
Roar of Sacrifice from a BM Hunter's Tenacity pet + Discipline Priest's PW:S: 30% damage transferred to pet.
Guardian Spirit: Spirit dies for you and heals you for 50% of your maximum HP.
Health Trinket + Mighty Fire Protection Potion + Nightmare Seed + Power Word: Shield (Here, I need some insight on whether Power of Vesperon reduces the health granted by the boosters listed. I assume it does but want to be sure.)

I apologize for any minor errors in tooltip descriptions here. I'll fix this post up once I leave work today.

Last edited by Marcos : 01/30/09 at 4:23 PM.

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Old 01/30/09, 5:48 PM   #365
Bharlin
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Priest
 
Die Silberne Hand (EU)
Originally Posted by Vaccine View Post
....
We did find though that the fight is not over when Shadron died, we wiped 2-3 times when we got to just Vesperon as the drake tank damage seemed to be significantly higher than when he had two on him....

We didn't bother killing the portal adds after Shadron though, there doesn't seem much point when he spawns them so fast anyway. Maybe we will try that tonight but I doubt it for all the extra trouble it causes.
There is your reason for your drake tank dying. The respawn on portal adds is something between 45 and 60 seconds, I believe, and they die reasonably fast to make portal hopping worthwhile. If you just ignore them, your Vesperon tank will be taking +75% shadow damage from the Vesperon akolyte, your MT will be taking +75% fire damage from the Vesperon akolyte, +50% fire damage from the Shadron akolyte (which wouldn't even be respawning after you kill it) AND considerably more melee damage from Satharion due to the +50% increase in both melee damage and attack speed. In addition to this, your raid will be taking +75% fire damage from meteors and shadow damage from styles (Vesperon akolyte). All of this for 60-75 seconds until Vesperon is down - quite honestly, I don't see how your healers are supposed to keep up. I was healing the Satharion tank yesterday, and if we hadn't killed the akolytes after Shadron we would have beend overwhelmed by the total damage that was going around, that is for sure.

Edited above post to show the non-split version of the kill in wws log.

Last edited by Bharlin : 01/30/09 at 6:39 PM.

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Old 01/31/09, 3:47 AM   #366
Shamgarr
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by urotas View Post
I'm definitely getting occasional 0% resists with either Mark of the Wild or Fire resistance aura always active. There does seem to be something funny going on with the resists for Sarth's fire breath though and maybe for resistance in general. Sometimes I resist 8%, other times 16%, 18%, 21%, 35% or 40%. The resists definitely aren't following the old method of 25% leaps, but it is still possible to get fully unresisted breaths at 130 resistance.
Those curious about resistance might want to check out some of the data in the druid thread. I got curious enough about it to do some fairly rigorous resistance tests, and will try to keep things updated in "Resistance Mechanics in WotLK".

Resists only occur now in 10% intervals. You're seeing what seem like other amounts, because all "damage taken" reductions (or debuffs) like defensive stance occur only on the unresisted portion. It's actually far more reliable than the BC system, because hitting even moderate amounts of resistance completely pushes certain possibilities off the table.

For example, the data so far indicates that vs. an 83 mob, 104 resistance eliminates the possibility of a 0% resist. On the higher end, 415 resistance eliminates the possibility of anything less than a 40% resist. I warn that these numbers are still quite preliminary, the actual testing was done for level 80, with some plausible assumptions for the level difference.

I imagine plate wearers might be giving up a bit more for FR gear, but if you can attain a decent amount w/o too many sacrifices, the results are definitely beneficial. At the very least, enchants and consumables have a very high value.

Last edited by Shamgarr : 01/31/09 at 4:07 AM.

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Old 01/31/09, 5:17 AM   #367
urotas
Piston Honda
 
urotas's Avatar
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Moonglade (EU)
Originally Posted by Shamgarr View Post
Those curious about resistance might want to check out some of the data in the druid thread. I got curious enough about it to do some fairly rigorous resistance tests, and will try to keep things updated in "Resistance Mechanics in WotLK".

Resists only occur now in 10% intervals. You're seeing what seem like other amounts, because all "damage taken" reductions (or debuffs) like defensive stance occur only on the unresisted portion. It's actually far more reliable than the BC system, because hitting even moderate amounts of resistance completely pushes certain possibilities off the table.
That's very interesting, and resistance being counted first definitely explains the weird damage amounts it was reducing. Looking back at our Sartharion kill, I had 2 completely unresisted breaths out of 29. I can't be 100% certain I had Fire Resistance Aura active for those though. Since unresisted breaths would still be possible at Mark of the Wild level resistance, it would still fit into the data you've collected. This definitely makes the possibility of using a resistance flask interesting, as you could guarantee at least a 10% resistance on each breath with just that and mark of the wild.

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Old 01/31/09, 11:48 AM   #368
Shamgarr
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Again with the caveat that this requires confirmation on boss-level mobs, it's expected the minimum possible resist changes at these levels:

104 FR - 10% min, 20% avg
178 FR - 20% min, 30% avg
277 FR - 30% min, 40% avg
415 FR - 40% min, 50% avg

So just a fire resist totem and a +50 FR flask will knock 10% resists off the table, and give you a long-term average resist of 30%. Beyond that, it will take a bit of enchants/gear to go further, but each 10% that is resisted is up to 6k damage avoided in the 25 man, thus worth the loss of quite a bit of stamina in terms of breath survival. Obviously the tradeoff still exists with making sure you don't end up hammered too hard by the melee.

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Old 02/01/09, 6:09 PM   #369
Rozmetal
Glass Joe
 
Orc Hunter
 
Aszune (EU)
Our guild done some tries on Sartharion 10+3 this week and im still not sure what setup we should aim for. We will use casster group, but im not sure about the number of tanks and healers. We tried it with 2 tanks and 3 healers, didnt go very well (probably because we had crap raid setup). Another day we tried it with 3/3 and havent made any progress at all I´d say. We had some nice control on adds and drakes, but we failed to DPS down Tenebron fast enough. Correct me if I am wrong, but getting Tenebron down before he pops second whelps is essential ?.
I was thinking about going 2/2 for the next time. The DPS gain would be huge, but I´m more worried about twilight torment healing when Shadron is still up. will it be possible for 2 healers - probably Holy Paladin and either druid//priest to outheal the big raid damage and huge breaths on tank ?

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Old 02/01/09, 11:40 PM   #370
gaiylo
Glass Joe
 
gaiylo's Avatar
 
Human Warrior
 
Nera'thor (EU)
My opinion is that it's not essential to kill him before Whelps #2, we
actually rarely do it in our caster setup (hi@RNG). 3/3 is perfect imo.
I know that some do it with 2 healers but it's really hard.

Maybe you could post the classes and their assignments so that I and others could help you more.

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Old 02/02/09, 3:48 AM   #371
Ivriniel
Piston Honda
 
Human Paladin
 
Outland (EU)
Originally Posted by gaiylo View Post
My opinion is that it's not essential to kill him before Whelps #2, we
actually rarely do it in our caster setup (hi@RNG). 3/3 is perfect imo.
I know that some do it with 2 healers but it's really hard.

Maybe you could post the classes and their assignments so that I and others could help you more.

If the gear of your group is good enough and you stack buffs properly, you should always manage to kill Tenebron before he can spawn a second set of whelps (without Heroism/Bloodlust). Once Tenebron is dead your tank can reposition Shadron to Vesperons landing spot while dps clears the adds, then pop your Heroism/Bloodlust and kill Shadron. Once Shadron is almost dead one of the caster hybrids (Moonkin/ele Shaman) starts to help out on healing.

So when you actually need it you'll have the 3rd healer. Seems to be one of many advantages of doing this with casters instead of melee.

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Old 02/02/09, 3:56 AM   #372
Apfelkäse
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Kazzak (EU)
Yeah, finally after a long time after we did the 25 man version as well, we killed him with:
  • DK Tank on Sarth ( 44/11/16, which is imo the perfect sarth tanking spec =p )
  • Warrior tank on Adds
  • Prot Pally on Blue Drakes
  • Holy Priest
  • Resto Druid
  • Elemental Shaman ( Healing once Vesperons Acolyte comes up )
  • Demon/Destro Lock
  • Moonkin
  • Shadow Priest
  • Surv Hunter

We tried quite some time, had some horrible deaths, like pally getting instakilled from the breath and shit, as we used the druid on raid healing...

Eventually we did an attempt without Bloodlust ( we normally use this after we aoe the adds and dps Shadron ), and we managed to get Ahadron down without using Bloodlust, was kind of hectic then as our priest was out of mana, he got a soulstone, went in front of Sartharion, got his by the breath, healed me for 15 more seconds, used his SS, healed more, then 3 adds hitted the druid, but me ( as sarth tank ) taunted 2 while being constnatly on the verge of dying, was very hectic =p.

About rotations:

When Vesperons Acolyte comes up I used:

Anti Magic Shield
Icebound Fortitude
Vampiric Blood + HP Trinket + Seed which put me at 42k health
Anti Magic
Icebound
Raise Dead ( saved my ass there =p )
Then Shadron was dead

What we realiesd was, that the fire elementals have little health, around 25k

So next week we will try this with a melee group consisting of 2 tanks, 2.5 healers and 5.5 DPS. We will instantly nuke the fire ellies when they come up. They die so fast single targetted so it's no problem at all, the DK has 2 taunts and the warrior has another taunt, so healers should be fine.

To sum it up, I really like this fight 10man, it actually is a good challenge, the 25 man version isn't even fun, we burn shadron too fast, and the Twilight Torment debuff is easily outhealable. Whilst the 10 man version is alot different, and the funny thing is, we didn't even use Divine Guardian on 10 man, which we have 2 times on 25 man.

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Old 02/02/09, 6:24 AM   #373
Taja
Piston Honda
 
Taja's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Mage
 
Talnivarr (EU)
Unfortunately we still haven't managed the 25 man 3D kill. Apart from the usual voidzone/flamewall deaths we still had some issues with the portals. When Vesperon landed we went in portal and killed shadron acolyte followed by vesperon acolyte. The shadron acolyte however was respawning about 5 seconds after we killed it. Is it on fixed timer or 45~ second after he got killed?

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Old 02/02/09, 6:58 AM   #374
Apfelkäse
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Kazzak (EU)
What setup are you using Taja? If you have alot of DPS you might want to consider burning Shadron and then killing the Vesperon Acolyte

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Old 02/02/09, 7:30 AM   #375
Yaelle
Von Kaiser
 
Yaelle's Avatar
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Arthas (EU)
Originally Posted by Taja View Post
The shadron acolyte however was respawning about 5 seconds after we killed it. Is it on fixed timer or 45~ second after he got killed?
You actually answered that question yourself. The spawn of the acolyte seems to occur in intervals. So if the one you killed, instantly re-spawns, just kill it another time and you should have some time from then.

But I would recommend not touching the Shadron acolyte before Shadron is dead.
Pro's and con's have been discussed here before, so I won't repeat them now.

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