I'm not sure how you are positioned, but one thing that improved our DPS a lot was tanking Tenebron in the first safe zone you need to go in. There is a lava wave that spawns right as tenebron is landing. Your choices are either the far west safe zone or the middle one. Whichever ends up being "safe" move there and hit heroism, and don't move until the next flame wave (and if it's from the same direction you won't have to). It seems somewhat obvious but any movement of the drakes is a big dps loss for melee since they have to be so damn close.

Don't discount the option of standing in the lava. It does a trivial amount of damage and it's a good option for that initial wave then Tenebron lands.

This is a similar problem to what happened in Sunwell when people hit the wall at M'uru. Alot of players with excellent DPS on Brutallus just dropped like a stone in damage when they're doing M'uru. Warlocks with 2k+ going barely doing 1.5k and such.

Patchwerk, and similar fights, are only good at measuring if you can read and apply theory (gear/spec/rotations), it's a very bad fight to measure game-skill I would say it's the easiest fight in the game to play from a DPS perspective.

The reason why people drop is they suddenly needs to focus not only on the max-rotation and the skill timers but movement, target switching, timed abilities, random abilities and so on. People tunnel, put short.

It's really hard to give a general guideline on how to solve the problem because it's so individual. It's also somewhat of a "Learn2Play"-issue, people just needs to get better at playing. Generally I'd say that some people might get hung up on some detail and focus too much on it - say being so afraid of a Fissure that they're having a hard time keeping up the rest.

Some neat tips I could think of was these:

• Have 1 person announce waves (we use our sartharion tank) with LEFT or RIGHT. Now people never need to think or look from wich side a wave comes. http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/4...mipathsnj9.jpg We made this picture so people could learn where the safe zones are without actually having to watch for the waves.
• Make people forget to ever look at the damage numbers above the mobs head, check Recount or WWS afterwards to see the result instead.
• Use skill-timers and target-frame close in vision of where your characters feet is, this way you'll end up monitor Fissures + your rotations and when it's getting close to switch target.

I turned out to be just the prepositioning thing. Once we got ready before it landed, Tenebron died in 47 seconds and that was with a bad lava wave. I can see us getting it down to 40 with an extra Naxx clear and a "safe" first wave.

Once again it just proves how much of a DPS loss even a 5 second move is. It seems that the key to surviving the Shadron + Vesperon phase, aside from keeping your tank up, is to minimize the amount of moving around.

Is there anything you can do to prevent tenebron from flying away from his tank spot hatching the eggs? Our melees are always complaining about the big dps loss when they have to follow him.

1: Kill him before he hatches them.
2: Tank him on the hatching spot.

What's the setup you people get 50 second tenebron kills? With a 3 healer 3 tank 4 dps setup, we barely down Tenebron just as Vesperon lands, and that's with every dps doing above 3k. I don't see much room to improve here, really. We might have cut a tank maybe, but even then we're missing something.

Also, in a 2 tank setup, I guess the drake tank tanks the whelps too; how does that go? You don't move the drake in order to get the adds, do you?

Yes, she spazzes out when she goes to hatch the eggs - it's not necessarily in the direction of the eggs, it's just kind of random. You can get screwed by it - I've seen her move out into the lava, or move on top of the Hunters (or out of their range), but those cases don't happen enough to really worry about. A breath at that point is a lot of damage, but shouldn't 1-shot anyone that's at full.

There's 2 ways to do a 2tank setup. First way, you have a protadin tank, he judges the drake, everything in the place will automatically stick to him pretty much. That's getting fixed next patch. I tried tanking most other stuff as an unholy DK, and to be honest, it's insanely complicated. People have to run very close to you so you can pickup stuff off wanderingplague+unholy blight, can't really afford to use runes or RP on blazes because threat is pretty tight as unholy especially on such a burst based fight, and when whelps spawn, considering morbidity bug, you better not miss your DnD, and then you get insanely raped by all the mobs on your face even through Icebound Fortitude>Boneshield+dodge trinket combo. It's really hard to keep aggro on everything including tenebron with all the switching around, keep an eye on walls and remember to drop DnD before the whelps spawn, all this while making sure the minuscule hitbox drake doesn't fly around in a stupid spot and start breathing on melees, or having half the whelps get in your back.

2nd way, which is much better, is having one of your DPS tanking. That's pretty much an unholy DPS DK job, since it's the best class to do it, but I guess a retadin turning RF on and equiping a shield for whelps could maybe do ok. He picks up blazes with unholy blight, taunt/deathgrip and pestilence to bring them into whirlwind/divine storm/multishot AEs, and when whelps are about to spawn, switch to frost presence, drop DnD and do IBF > Boneshield while everyone else massively AE the whelps so he doesn't die. Works fine for most people. You can also use a gorilla pet, but chances are the pet will instantly die on picking up whelps. It's very useful to pickup additional adds and do AE damage on the blazes and stuff like that however.

Does the DK dpsing the adds or the drakes?

Our main problem seems to be on the 3rd landing when all hell break loose, there seem to be too many adds at that point and the adds' tank takes a huge amount of damage. I believe its part to the fact we probably get 2 whelps wave instead of 1. Getting another DPS into the fight will help a lot in that regard, and it seems kinda more beneficial to drop a tank instead of a healer (Because that tank doesn't dps the drakes anyhow).

Part of the problem might be the whelps yes, but the difference is also that when the vesperon disciple spawns, the damage to the raid increases significantly. Everyone takes constant damage and have a 75% dmg taken debuff for a significant part of the time.

We are currently working on 10man version which personally I find definitly harder than 25 man ^^

Generally the biggest problems starts when second wave of whelps comes up and Vesparion is landing ... someone always dies then - usually one of the tanks. I was wondering, did anyone manage to kill Tenebron before 2nd wave of whelps?
We were close few times on heroism but still missing a bit.

Getting rid of whelps before Vesperon and Shadron portals would free one of the healers so he could aid on Sartharion tank so for sure it would be very handy but I am not sure if it's in our reach at the moment. And because healing gets rather challanging after Vesperon lands our healers would prefer heroism at that point rather during Tenebron.

Personally I am not sure which approach will be better for us - trying to burn Tenebron+whelps asap or use heroism for healers when it's getting "hot".

Try change one rogue and the mage to Hunters, they can pick up the AE part and scale with sunder armor and the feral.
And also important, the prot warrior should tank Tenebron and co. pretty obvious why but it's better to mention it :P
Oh and yes, method for example, first ones who made it through this fight afaik.

We had the same problems in the beginning, I personally think the heroism works fine while Tenebron is alive.
It's important that you get to the Shadron DPS phase asap so that "vesperon+shadron" phase is as short as possible.
It is crucial to have a "perfect" group. We right now have 1 melee setup and 1 caster setup while the melee setup
is a bit better in damage because of the synergy.
In the end I can only say: We don't oneshot this encounter after ~3weeks of "farming" it either.
Sometimes Twilight Torment is not friendly and the Tank dies and so on...
You have to be patient that's one factor. But again, first step is the perfect setup and trying to maximize your dps
so these instagib phases are as short as possible.

Geez I'm not even sure I could help you :x ^^

Edit: Prot Warrior on Sarth->Try to have all cooldowns the game offers
Druid on Sarth->Maybe try some fire resistance ?

We are using DK with all dmg reduction CDs he can talent for. It did work on 25 mans version, however, still needs some practice with timing everything.

We never realised tenebron moved to hatch the eggs that explains some 'later weirdness', we did notice however that if your tank is stood on the edge of the lava and he gains heroism/bloodlust the increase in model size seems to cause the drake to go walkies - is this possible?

I only know that the drakes are crazy, first: because of their small hitbox. Second: no idea
One time even Sartharion himself took a walk for funsies without changing target or anything.
I doubt that it's because of heroism or at least not because the tank is standing on the edge since
you can still walk in the "magma" region.

We actually have a group that constantly kills the acolytes in the twilight,
as soon as the Shadron portal opens (and Tenebron is dead). Because then if the
Acolyte of Vesperon becomes active and everyone gets the 75% shadow/fire debuff
it will be killed asap so the raid damage stays low.
(speaking of these tries where the add tank doesn't die)
I think the two paladins in our group are the only ones just healing
the Sartharion tank. So the priest could take care of the add tank.
(just assuming - I'm not a healer myself)

Frogmite, get a holy paly who is still pvp specced to use him bubble a few seconds after the 3rd acolyte comes out, this is easily the point in the fight where most damage is going around. -30% raidwide damage helps a lot in this phase.
you have

2 drakes up on same tank (Shield wall)
Whelps and fire adds still up. (Rogues FoK dispel any enraged)
2x void zones. (Gets the mod that announces if people get hit by these)
Dps taking big damage when attacking. (1-2 Hybrids switch to healing)
Fire cyclones randomly damaging people. (Pray)

Its just so much damage, we only just got our first kill tonight after 3 hours of wiping, so I'm by no means an expert but to me this seems the only real crucial part of the fight providing everyone is alive.
We got kind of lucky in our kill we had a priest who had died with the spirit of redemption Glyph and he was spamming CoH for over a minute as an angel.

Reading this, I just realized this may well be a working strategy for just that phase of the fight. Soulstone up two priests and have them spam CoH for 15 +x seconds where x is bound to be at least 8-12. Two priests spamming circle for 25 seconds have a crazy amount of healing output and without having to worry about void zones, aggroing adds or lava walls they should be able to keep all of your DPS up.

The Shadron + Vesperon phase should, judging from our attempts so far (not too many as we just got past the Xmas break), not last more than 30-35 seconds.

That leaves all your other healers free to spam the tanks. Interesting idea :-)

It is an interesting idea, however it will break when the patch comes in and CoH gets a cooldown slapped on it (possibly tomorrow.) We were toying with an idea similar to that before and scrapped it when we realized we'd have to relearn the fight once 3.08 launched.

If you're running a 3/3 tank healer set up you should be able to handle 2 waves of whelps, when we were learning it we used 3/2 and found that even then barring completely terrible void zone spawns on our pally we could still handle 2 waves of whelps (on attempts where dps died early or whatever but we kept going for practicing)

Our first kill was when we switched to 3/3 because with 2 healers, they were just too low on mana after twilight torment that they couldn't handle the increased damage on the MT with blazes and vesperon still alive, even with people going down to kill acolytes after shadron died.

We added a resto shaman and healing became much easier. We also use heroism for tenebron instead of shadron with 3/3 and that allows us to do 1 wave of whelps even with only 4 dps. But even if you don't have the dps you should still be able to handle 2 waves of whelps. The real dps timer on this fight is making sure tenebron dies before vesperon lands or your drake tank will get gibbed by triple breaths (you won't make it to 3 waves of whelps at this point anyways).

The hardest healing of this fight imo is when vesperon lands and you have 2 drakes up with sarth doing 25% more damage everybody taking twilight torment along with blazes/lava-strikes doing 100% + 50% + 75% more damage

After all this reading and some own experience I wonder a bit if Sartharion 2D/3D is possible for a casual guild as we are.
Dps requirement seems as high that is is only meet by best skilled/geared players and then we found many problems.

One main problem I see are the Lava Blazes, they arent really discussed in here untill now but giving us kind of big problems.
With a spread out raid they spawn spread out aswell. Sometimes they spawn just seconds before a flame wall comes and we are having enraged adds all time over and over.
With 2 Tanks (Dk and Paly) and a Rogue we got em finaly under control a bit but thats 3 people missing onto other jobs as dpsing drakes.
Are our Tanks doing a bad job there?
Do you have people focusing em down before they can get hit by Lava walls and enrage?
To give Tanks a more easy time we have to stack the raid which WILL cause daethes due to these shadow zones.

We have done a clear kill with Tenebron up last week and a zergfest with Versperon up today but we were just not even close to be able to meet dps requirement (Kill Tenebron+whelps before Vesperon lands ..) for 2D

You think a casual guild with some not so good players (in gear and movement) is wasting it s time with Sartharion 2D?

But then there s nothing else to do on 3rd day of raiding ..