Ok, I have been debating this issue for a while now I am trying to get some input on what I should do. I currently have a computer that I build back in 2007. Not the best gaming system back then but decent enough. Until recently my current specs look something along these lines:
ASUS P5B Motherboard
Intel Core 2 Duo 6400
6 Gig CORSAIR DDR2 RAM
2 750 Gig Hard Drive
100W Battery pack
Windows 7 64-bit
1900x1200 Screen size
on the video setting, until recently I had kept my video setting to the default one-notch below ultimate setting. My framerate was about 10-15 FPS in Dalaran, 30-40 FPS in Raids with no fights, and 10-20 FPS with heavy activity in Raid. About a month ago I had upgraded my ATI 2900 with a ATI 5850. Changing the video setting to Ultimate, this increased my framerate to 20-30 FPS in Dalaran, 60 FPS in raids with no fights, but still 10-20 FPS with heavy raid activity (particularly the first 10-15 seconds of a fight). I'm starting to think that I may need to upgrade my motherboard, CPU, and RAM as well; especially if Cataclysm is going to be a bigger video hog than it is now. Does anyone think this is necessary or should I be fine with what I have? If anything does need to be upgrade, anyone have any suggestions on what I should look into? Now my latency MAYBE a part of the issue, since I average at about 220 milliseconds, but I think that is a small part of the issue.
Your problem is most likely the CPU. 6 GBs RAM is more than enough for WoW, especially since it won't use more than 2 GBs anyway (more than 2 is obviously still better since Windows etc still need RAM). You could test what's bottlenecking you by either turning graphics options way down and comparing FPS with Ultra settings and/or downloading something like MSI Afterburner (program that checks GPU load) to check if it's your GPU capping you.
But like I said, my guess is that it's the CPU. I have a slightly slower GPU (5750) and it usually doesn't get capped in raids. For reference, I got a CPU that's a bit better (Core i5 750 @2.66 GHz) but only 4 GBs RAM (DDR3 though) and I get around ~40-60 FPS in combat in 25 mans.
I was figuring as much, but because the i5 is not compatible with the P5B (Asus P5B Core 2 Duo Intel P965 Chipset), it means I need to get a new motherboard as well. I'll check out MSI Afterburner and use it during tonights' alt 25 raid.
It's also worth noting that the second to worst shadow setting looks a LOT better than the worst setting, at a minimal FPS slowdown. It's after that setting (not the lowest), that the slowdown becomes visible.
The shadow setting slider selects between different shadow implementations and as you've noted the second from worst is a fairly decent quality one without sacrificing framerate on most video cards. Somewhere there's a blue post or an article that explains each setting and the quality / performance issues, IIRC part of the differences between settings are which types of in-game objects get shadows and the methods used to cast them on surfaces.
Ok, I have been debating this issue for a while now I am trying to get some input on what I should do. I currently have a computer that I build back in 2007. Not the best gaming system back then but decent enough. Until recently my current specs look something along these lines:
ASUS P5B Motherboard
Intel Core 2 Duo 6400
6 Gig CORSAIR DDR2 RAM
2 750 Gig Hard Drive
100W Battery pack
Windows 7 64-bit
1900x1200 Screen size
on the video setting, until recently I had kept my video setting to the default one-notch below ultimate setting. My framerate was about 10-15 FPS in Dalaran, 30-40 FPS in Raids with no fights, and 10-20 FPS with heavy activity in Raid. About a month ago I had upgraded my ATI 2900 with a ATI 5850. Changing the video setting to Ultimate, this increased my framerate to 20-30 FPS in Dalaran, 60 FPS in raids with no fights, but still 10-20 FPS with heavy raid activity (particularly the first 10-15 seconds of a fight). I'm starting to think that I may need to upgrade my motherboard, CPU, and RAM as well; especially if Cataclysm is going to be a bigger video hog than it is now. Does anyone think this is necessary or should I be fine with what I have? If anything does need to be upgrade, anyone have any suggestions on what I should look into? Now my latency MAYBE a part of the issue, since I average at about 220 milliseconds, but I think that is a small part of the issue.
Graphics card? 100W battery pack?
Okay, I see it. A high end graphics card mixed with last generations CPU is going to take a performance hit due to a capability imbalance (kind of like towing a semitrailer with a VW bug). You could upgrade your CPU to the best that your motherboard can take (probably get a bios update too), if you are keeping the Motherboard. I would get a new Motherboard, memory and cpu. (ddr3 and a cpu in the i5-i7 class).
Latency looks maneagable, that is what I play with most of the time.
Earlier this year, I had been saving up to upgrade my video card (from an elderly Nvidia 7800GT), when my motherboard decided to go faulty. Being a socket 939 one (with overclocked X2 3800), it seemed stupid to get another one, so I dug deep and went for an i7/860+mobo. In hindsight, it did me a favour because, despite the ancient video card, my frame rate shot up. I run 1768x992 windowed, and idling around Dalaran pegs at 60fps when quiet, 50fps when busy. 25 man raids usually hover at 30-40fps. Yes, all the FX are turned down low but, after you have seen the pretty architecture, that doesn't matter. Running shadows on the 1st notch above the lowest really drops the frame rate though
Anyway, the moral of the story is, rubbish video card + good cpu >> great video card + ok cpu.
Graphics card? 100W battery pack?
You could upgrade your CPU to the best that your motherboard can take (probably get a bios update too), if you are keeping the Motherboard. I would get a new Motherboard, memory and cpu. (ddr3 and a cpu in the i5-i7 class).
Latency looks maneagable, that is what I play with most of the time.
If you want to do the first option and find an upgrade compatible with your motherboard (LGA775 chipset), there are very few options. However, I have done the same type of upgrade myself for your chipset, and know the upgrades.
I upgraded to a Q6600 processor, and the other compatible option is the Q6700 (the difference is minimal and they cost about the same). I read processing benchmarks for the Quads and compared them to the Core 2 Duo processors, and the performance scores were so much higher, and even comparable to most things from the next generation. The MAJOR downside is that Intel stopped manufacturing these in 2008, so the only place you will get one is Ebay / Amazon etc. And make sure you get the version of the processor with G0 stepping.
Also worthy to note is that I have the same graphics card, and 4gb of the same ram you do. Running on Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit, 25m raids run well over 30 FPS upwards to 55FPS, with max settings except for shadows and slightly lower spell cluster. Edit: Also, same resolution; 1900x1200.
Re: Upgrading Socket 775 CPUs, if you're just looking for WoW performance, you'll likely be better off with a fast dual core than a quad. Most of WoW's processing takes place in just two threads, and though there are other threads that will run on the other cores of quads, those cores will typically be underutilised. Better to get 2 cores that can run fast with something like the E8400, E8500 or E8600.
An E8500 has 3x the cache of your E6400 and is more than 1GHz faster at 3.16GHz to the E6400's 2.13GHz. These chips are easily capable of playing WoW at max settings.
With the Asus P5B though there are issues with older versions of the BIOS (1236 or lower) not being compatible with 45nm chips - make sure to upgrade to the latest one from support.asus.com.
I was figuring as much, but because the i5 is not compatible with the P5B (Asus P5B Core 2 Duo Intel P965 Chipset), it means I need to get a new motherboard as well. I'll check out MSI Afterburner and use it during tonights' alt 25 raid.
It is possible that your slowdown in raids is not due to graphics but due to addons. Try using Spamalyzer in raids. You probably can't do anything about your paladins/healers running Pallypower and LibHealComm but there are addons that people in your raid may be using that can be turned off during raids. Addons like Gearscore, Carbonite, Questhelper and Gatherer can spam everybody in the raid and waste people's processing power.
If you want to do the first option and find an upgrade compatible with your motherboard (LGA775 chipset), there are very few options. However, I have done the same type of upgrade myself for your chipset, and know the upgrades.
I upgraded to a Q6600 processor, and the other compatible option is the Q6700 (the difference is minimal and they cost about the same). I read processing benchmarks for the Quads and compared them to the Core 2 Duo processors, and the performance scores were so much higher, and even comparable to most things from the next generation. The MAJOR downside is that Intel stopped manufacturing these in 2008, so the only place you will get one is Ebay / Amazon etc. And make sure you get the version of the processor with G0 stepping.
Also worthy to note is that I have the same graphics card, and 4gb of the same ram you do. Running on Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit, 25m raids run well over 30 FPS upwards to 55FPS, with max settings except for shadows and slightly lower spell cluster. Edit: Also, same resolution; 1900x1200.
The last quad cores for lga755 are the q8xxx serie if you're on a budget (I wouldn't buy them) and the q9xxx if you want more cache, better overclocking due to higher multipliers and VTx extensions.
Q6600s are worth buying used if you find a good stepping since they should sell for less than 90€ by now.
I'm running a q9550 at default settings (could raise it to 3,4ghz from 2,8ghz), if his motherboard support that processor it could be a cheaper alternative to a i5 750 since it would work without changing the ram and the motherboard, but it could be hard to find it and quite expensive, but still cheaper than the whole motherboard+cpu+ram package.
Performance wise a q9550 is roughly the same as a i5 750 when it comes to multithreaded programs (with wow it's such a case) and it's slower on single threaded applications thanks to turbo boost on the i5, in my experience it's an overabundant cpu for wow, but maybe my view is influenced by my slowish geforce 9600gt.
Originally Posted by wormskull
Re: Upgrading Socket 775 CPUs, if you're just looking for WoW performance, you'll likely be better off with a fast dual core than a quad. Most of WoW's processing takes place in just two threads, and though there are other threads that will run on the other cores of quads, those cores will typically be underutilised. Better to get 2 cores that can run fast with something like the E8400, E8500 or E8600.
An E8500 has 3x the cache of your E6400 and is more than 1GHz faster at 3.16GHz to the E6400's 2.13GHz. These chips are easily capable of playing WoW at max settings.
With the Asus P5B though there are issues with older versions of the BIOS (1236 or lower) not being compatible with 45nm chips - make sure to upgrade to the latest one from support.asus.com.
My cpu utilization is roughly even across the 4 cores with some applications on the background, duals are cool for benchmarks and overclocking records, but I prefer better real world performance so I don't get slowdowns if the antivirus decides that it's a good time to update itself during a raid or I'd like to record a raid using fraps.
I bet that cataclysm will use multicores even better than wotlk.
EDIT Another option is to overclock that e6600 since even a cheap air cooler (for example an arctic freezer 7 or a cooler master tx 3) should bring that cpu in the 3ghz region providing substantial speed gains.
The E6600 you already have and the Q6600 mentioned above are both very good at overclocking. I wouldn't say there's anything wrong with your CPU though, because your system should have been performing better even with that video card. Having FPS problems "particularly in the first 10-15 seconds" sounds like a problem with your addons, not your hardware. Questhelper, DBM and meter mods tend to do this to me with outdated versions.
Also, as a 64-bit user you may be encountering some of the severe memory leak issues I've had. Dalaran is a death trap for me now, it takes 5 minutes to crash in the city and 30 minutes if I load in the city and leave immediately. Even if you're not crashing, you could be suffering from this, and nothing I've tried has solved it.
Overheating may also be causing you slowdown. Have you been monitoring your temps?
Windows Vista Home Premium (6.0 Build 6001)
xFX nForce 780i 3-Way SLI
Phoenix - AwardBIOS v6.00PG
Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q6600 @ 2.40GHz(4 CPUs)
8190MB RAM
DirectX 10
(from dxdiag)
850W PSU
1920x1200 (32bit) (60Hz) Generic PnP Monitor desktop.
But in WOW I run 1600x1024(Wide) for a decent resolution on the 23" LCD.
Latency is usually 150-200ms on this server.
My addon memory is only 15mb. I make sure to turn off GearScore. I use Grid, Recount and PowerAuras. (I currently show those as my top 3 in addon memory). I usually clear recount after every boss, although i'm not sure if this has any effect at all).
WoW seems to be 20-30 FPS in Dalaran about 60 in an empty instance but goes down to 2-5 frames at times during the nitty gritty 25man raiding, this is with almost every setting at low except Projected Textures on.
I tried the MSI Afterburner program and the values really don't seem to change. As in... Constant 65-66deg GPU Temp, 37% fan speed, 670 Core clock MHz, 1674 MHz shader clock and 972MHz memory clock.
DxDiaog says this about the drivers (EDIT i did find some new ones stated below)
Any thoughts? Is it just a relatively weak video card? Or is there some untapped resources I should be trying to use from my PC. Doesn't seem to be running too hot to me...
I have the exact same CPU/GPU and get perfectly acceptable raid framerates on max settings (1920x1080). Again, it definitely sounds like an addon issue. It's not addon memory that you need to look at, but odds are if you paste up a shot of all your addons we could point out the troublemakers. The quickest way to find out is to disable all addons and load up something intensive (Wintergrasp or AV perhaps), then see if the FPS problem is still there.
For one, you could have a look at OptionHouse and use it's CPU Profiling options. Addon Memory is in no way a scale for measuring the addons effect on fps. Furthermore, Power Auras is a real offender when it comes to cpu usage for an addon as, if i recall correctly, it hooks on EVERY OnUpdate message the client receives.
A good way to narrow down your FPS issues is to disable all addons and see what it's like raiding that way. Unfortunately, if you have any kind of healing/tanking/leading role in raids that's not really possible. In that case I highly recommend trying out tukui Tukui. It's fairly easy to set up and comes with almost everything you'd want in a UI while clocking less than 500kb of memory in raids.
I was using a 9800GT and an old X2 3800 CPU but a decent amount of addons (didn't have any useless addons btw, just unitframes, powerauras, actionbars, buffbar, chat mod + boss mod) and switching to tukui got my FPS to jump from 20 to 60+.
The odd thing is, even though my gfx card was not the bottleneck, I had to keep everything on the lowest settings to be able to raid smoothly, and lowering graphics settings actually upped my FPS. Basically, even if you have a good graphics card, you still need a good CPU to be able to keep up with it to play on the higher settings.
I've since upgraded my CPU to a Phenom II X4 965 and get 100+ fps even in dalaran, but knowing to upgrade my CPU came from trying out the lightweight UI package I linked. Hope my experience helps someone.
i have an average quadcore pc.
Using quite an old graphics card geforce 4670.
I can play wow on full settings with an FPS of about 12 in dalaran. It was pretty horrible and then my mate told me to turn shadows off completely. As soon as i made that change my fps shot up to 60 again and i could walk about smoothly.
Addons aren't always the problem, so next time your online check ur shadows, turning them off doesnt make that much of a difference to the game's graphics either.
Last edited by Haaggis : 07/12/10 at 6:20 AM.
Reason: Got my dictionary out to fix spelling errors.
Update:
Currently the best bang for the buck is a Phenom II X4 955. You can even take an AM2+ board and keep your old DDR2 ram. This setup also works for the latest games, unlike some older C2D processors.
The E8400 and the Phenom II X4 965 are the best budget choices for WoW at the moment. They have a decent speed per core and a large cache, WoW likes both.
I've got an E8400 OC'd from 3.0 to 3.6ghz with an 8800GT 512mb (somewhat old card at this point) and 4gb of ram, 3.25gb visible to the OS.
I know people with much higher end quad cores who don't get my kind of performance because WoW really likes a few really fast cores, instead of lots of slower cores.
I still think there is something very wrong/weird with WOW.
To recap my specs:
i7-920
6Gb ram triple chan
ATI Radeon 5870 now (My 280 GTX died).
I tried TOTC twins now. I turned of ALL addons and it was barely 5-10 average FPS increase. Out of combat inside instance i was at ~100 FPS, in combat ~20-25 with addons, 30-35 without addons.
This is with everything except particle density on lowest. M2Faster @ 3, affinitymask set so WOW uses all cores+threads.
Your FPS seem to be ok. I have a Phenom X4 955, benchmarks say it's comparable, and I'm getting 26fps in 25-man boss fights with all my favourite addons.
No one has 60fps+ in 25-man boss fights with addons. Those who claim it are looking at their FPS before the fight starts.
Well the difference between addons and not is neglible.. but ye if you say so.... I was sure there were people out there with similar specs getting much higher FPS.
At least from my experience, it seems like old settings files can cause severe fps trouble, at least when addons are enabled, but also if they are disabled (although I don't see why WOW should load setting files if the corresponding addon isn't loaded).
I had fps dropping down below 10fps on some 25 man raid fights in combat, even when all addons were disabled.
When I finally decided to whack my 4 year old settings folder and rebuild the interface from scratch, I got 20-25fps in the same 25-man raidfights, using the same addons, just not the whole loead of old setting files.
I'm having a crashing issue in Howling Fjord near the keep. I don't crash anywhere else in the game, and it's not a game crash. My computer just randomly locks up for 30 seconds, unlocks for 2 seconds, and locks up again. It just repeats itself, so I have to hard boot my machine. Could this be caused by a bad stick of RAM? I've run a repair to no avail, and also a full game reinstall. I ran a memory test, and it came up with an error, but that's the only place I crash in WoW, and any game for that matter.
Hey there. Big gulps, huh? Alright! Welp, cya later!
06/25/10, 3:14 PM
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