Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Public Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 11/17/05, 5:04 PM   #1
Lagomorph
Piston Honda
 
Lagomorph's Avatar
 
Night Elf Priest
 
Elune
This is a general question for the tanks and DPS'ers of EJ, as well as gurgthock in his role as raid leader. As some background I coordinate a MC/BWL raid, and our warriors just do not seem to be holdign hate as well as they should be. Beyond that - we have some DPS that pushes too hard, and other DPS that doesn't push at all. Most damning - we have hunters that pull aggro. So while we definately have people who are being idiots - I'm looking for hard facts to confront folks with. Beyond simply slapping BoS on folks, I want more insight into the aggro-dynamics that play out in your raids, because without BoS, and having Downed nef - I'm hoping you're a bit more in tune with them.


How hard can your DPS push on a mob like Onyxia, Razorgore, or Lashlayer? (Taunt immune, targeted tank deaggro type mobs).

How is your DPS managing aggro?

How do you (gurgthock) manage your raid's DPS?

What IS your raid's DPS like?

What kind of time do you allow for your tanks to build hate before DPS engages (on a taunt immune mob)?

How much do your tanks relate their ability to hold hate to their talent build?

How big a component of their hate generation is tied to the DPS/speed of their weapon?

Do your tanks feel a given enchant increases their ability to hold hate? (lifesteal and crusader both have healing components, Str is a raw damage increase)

How, exactly are your tanks going about building, and maintaining hate?

How much of your warrior's hate generation is tied to their rage generation?

To what extent does your MT warrior's hate generation change when not fighting Vaelestraz? [note that we have Vael on farm status - just seems a good evaluation of "pure" (not limited by rage) tanking]

If I hear a warrior talk about "I have more rage then I know what to do with" when MTing MC level and above bosses - am I right that they aren't doing their job?

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/17/05, 5:07 PM   #2
hamlet_the_lesser
King Hippo
 
Shaman
 
Sargeras
There was a pretty good topic on this subject but I think it got pushed off the 2 pages of viewable topics.


Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/17/05, 5:08 PM   #3
newladin
Don Flamenco
 
newladin's Avatar
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
<UF>
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Lagomorph,November 17th, 2005 @ 4:04PM
This is a general question for the tanks and DPS'ers of EJ, as well as gurgthock in his role as raid leader. As some background I coordinate a MC/BWL raid, and our warriors just do not seem to be holdign hate as well as they should be. Beyond that - we have some DPS that pushes too hard, and other DPS that doesn't push at all. Most damning - we have hunters that pull aggro. So while we definately have people who are being idiots - I'm looking for hard facts to confront folks with. Beyond simply slapping BoS on folks, I want more insight into the aggro-dynamics that play out in your raids, because without BoS, and having Downed nef - I'm hoping you're a bit more in tune with them.


How hard can your DPS push on a mob like Onyxia, Razorgore, or Lashlayer? (Taunt immune, targeted tank deaggro type mobs).

How is your DPS managing aggro?

How do you (gurgthock) manage your raid's DPS?

What IS your raid's DPS like?

What kind of time do you allow for your tanks to build hate before DPS engages (on a taunt immune mob)?

How much do your tanks relate their ability to hold hate to their talent build?

How big a component of their hate generation is tied to the DPS/speed of their weapon?

Do your tanks feel a given enchant increases their ability to hold hate? (lifesteal and crusader both have healing components, Str is a raw damage increase)

How, exactly are your tanks going about building, and maintaining hate?

How much of your warrior's hate generation is tied to their rage generation?

To what extent does your MT warrior's hate generation change when not fighting Vaelestraz? [note that we have Vael on farm status - just seems a good evaluation of "pure" (not limited by rage) tanking]

If I hear a warrior talk about "I have more rage then I know what to do with" when MTing MC level and above bosses - am I right that they aren't doing their job?
OMG, IT'S AN EXAM!






/cry i forgot to study.



ps. damn you hamlet for posting before me. TROLL.

all your base, are belong to us!

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/17/05, 5:09 PM   #4
Slug
Soda Popinski
 
Slug's Avatar
 
Warlock
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Lagomorph,November 17th, 2005 @ 3:04PM
If I hear a warrior talk about "I have more rage then I know what to do with" when MTing MC level and above bosses - am I right that they aren't doing their job?
Anyone who says that outside of the Vael fight is probably really bad at their job.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/17/05, 5:13 PM   #5
hamlet_the_lesser
King Hippo
 
Shaman
 
Sargeras
Originally Posted by newladin,November 17th, 2005 @ 4:08PM
ps. damn you hamlet for posting before me. TROLL.
My post was shorter than yours and also had less wit so it required less thought from me.


Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/17/05, 5:14 PM   #6
newladin
Don Flamenco
 
newladin's Avatar
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
<UF>
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by hamlet,November 17th, 2005 @ 4:13PM
Originally Posted by newladin,November 17th, 2005 @ 4:08PM
ps. damn you hamlet for posting before me. TROLL.
My post was shorter than yours and also had less wit so it required less thought from me.
i wasn't thinking though, i was playing wow and got ganked. NEWARRIOR LvL34 warrior auth'd plz, lol.

all your base, are belong to us!

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/17/05, 5:18 PM   #7
♦ Praetorian
Mike Tyson
 
Praetorian's Avatar
 
Orc Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Lagomorph,November 17th, 2005 @ 4:04PM
How hard can your DPS push on a mob like Onyxia, Razorgore, or Lashlayer? (Taunt immune, targeted tank deaggro type mobs).
Onyxia? Rogues have to hold back during phases 1 and 3. Use two tanks on phase 3 to allow for more stability. I can't remember the last time a nonrogue pulled aggro.

Razorgore doesn't have a deaggro.... (He has a TEMPORARY memwipe that also stalls aggro generation for a while, but he's no Broodlord.)

It's best to be very aggressive on Broodlord. There's a good explanation of why on the Conquest forums right now, which I won't recopy in its entirety. The gist of it: You have a certain amount of time before your heal aggro hits your tank aggro plateau. Anemic DPS means you don't kill the mob before then, and you wipe. Broodlord is actually sort of like Kazzak in this sense.

How is your DPS managing aggro?
Hmm. Depends on the player. Kind of sloppy on trash. Very solid on bosses because the stakes are higher. I can't remember the last time someone outright fucked up with aggro on a major boss fight. Unless we're fighting Azuregos in which case people's brains turn to jelly and they mash backstab without hesitation.

How do you (gurgthock) manage your raid's DPS?
With an iron fist! Not sure what you mean. I arrange groups to maximize synergies between buffs and such.

What IS your raid's DPS like?
High. I generally get the impression we're a very DPS-heavy guild in many ways. We've had Vael kills that approach the 2-minute mark (third tank never got BA), we use single-target DPS to stay ahead of the spawns on Nef phase 1, etc. Hard to quantify beyond that, but I've never seen a video in which a boss's health dropped faster than I'm accustomed to seeing on our raids, for what it's worth.

What kind of time do you allow for your tanks to build hate before DPS engages (on a taunt immune mob)?
Hard to quantify. Not very long. On Broodlord DPS begins as soon as the whelps are dead. On Vael, maybe 5 seconds tops. The only mob I can think of where we have a solid amount of time before DPS is Razorgore because two tanks each need aggro, and it's hard for a second warrior to get much aggro when he isn't tanking.

How much do your tanks relate their ability to hold hate to their talent build?
A lot of our guys respecced Defiance for BWL and still have it. It's important. 31/5/15 or 31/4/16 are probably the most common talent builds we have. Defiance is the only really important part though. Toughness and Imp Shield Block are nice mitigation though, and Last Stand is great for stuff like Nef's warrior yell.

How big a component of their hate generation is tied to the DPS/speed of their weapon?
DPS? Probably half. You can't lump speed in there. Higher speed = more frequent HS, which has a hefty bonus aggro component.

Do your tanks feel a given enchant increases their ability to hold hate? (lifesteal and crusader both have healing components, Str is a raw damage increase)
It's all really a drop in the bucket. I don't think anyone has Lifestealing or +str. 75% probably have Crusader and 25% have Icy Chill.

How, exactly are your tanks going about building, and maintaining hate?
Defer to a warrior on this one. But ideally, use Revenge whenever possible, shield bash/slam whenever possible, and try to make as many swings as possible Heroic Strikes.

How much of your warrior's hate generation is tied to their rage generation?
Uh, a whole lot of it.

To what extent does your MT warrior's hate generation change when not fighting Vaelestraz? [note that we have Vael on farm status - just seems a good evaluation of "pure" (not limited by rage) tanking]
Hard to quantify but it's definitely a fair bit lower. 30%-21% maybe not so much -- tanking Firemaw or something is damn near infinite rage anyway. But 20% and below, you can't really emulate chain executes with infinite rage in any other setting.

If I hear a warrior talk about "I have more rage then I know what to do with" when MTing MC level and above bosses - am I right that they aren't doing their job?
Not necessarily. If they're using all their timers and still have spare rage, then they should look into a faster weapon. If they're not using all their timers, then they should learn 2 play.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/17/05, 5:20 PM   #8
Lagomorph
Piston Honda
 
Lagomorph's Avatar
 
Night Elf Priest
 
Elune
Originally Posted by hamlet,November 17th, 2005 @ 4:07PM
There was a pretty good topic on this subject but I think it got pushed off the 2 pages of viewable topics.
Yeah - I read back through several of them, they mostly focus on what the tanks are doing.

What I really want to know - and I suppose should condense the above post to reflect:

How hard is your DPS pushing on these fights?

I need a benchmark I can go to and say - our tanks are the issue, or our DPS is the issue.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/17/05, 5:35 PM   #9
• Wodin
Thoroughly Inebriated
 
Wodin's Avatar
 
Troll Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
Depends on the fight. Generally speaking I tend to push DPS as hard as possible and expect everyone else to follow suit. If I pull aggro and fuck up I'll accept responsibility for my actions and be frustrated that I caused problems, but I'd rather occasionally fuck up than spend the entirety of my raiding career doing 20% less damage than I'm capable of because I'm scared of pulling aggro. And if I'm doing X safely, then it's much easier for everyone else to convince themselves that X-k is safe as well. Certain fights are obviously aggro-sensitive(Fuck you, Onyxia. Take your Wing Buffet and knock yourself off a cliff) and as a DPS class my responsibility becomes being much more careful. So you can't have idiots behind the DPS classes or you're in trouble when they actually have to behave.

Note that I'm also probably one of the worst offenders at pulling aggro precisely because of this attitude, and it does end up costing me a fair bit in repair bills.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/17/05, 5:37 PM   #10
Lagomorph
Piston Honda
 
Lagomorph's Avatar
 
Night Elf Priest
 
Elune
So when you say that your non-rogue DPS goes all out on Phase 3 Ony - are you referring to mages chain casting arcane missles, or chain casting Frostbolt?

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/17/05, 5:43 PM   #11
♦ Praetorian
Mike Tyson
 
Praetorian's Avatar
 
Orc Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
I haven't paid attention in a while, actually.

I think frostbolt? Waiting for a mage to chime in.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/17/05, 5:45 PM   #12
newladin
Don Flamenco
 
newladin's Avatar
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
<UF>
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Wodin,November 17th, 2005 @ 4:35PM
Depends on the fight. Generally speaking I tend to push DPS as hard as possible and expect everyone else to follow suit. If I pull aggro and fuck up I'll accept responsibility for my actions and be frustrated that I caused problems, but I'd rather occasionally fuck up than spend the entirety of my raiding career doing 20% less damage than I'm capable of because I'm scared of pulling aggro. And if I'm doing X safely, then it's much easier for everyone else to convince themselves that X-k is safe as well. Certain fights are obviously aggro-sensitive(Fuck you, Onyxia. Take your Wing Buffet and knock yourself off a cliff) and as a DPS class my responsibility becomes being much more careful. So you can't have idiots behind the DPS classes or you're in trouble when they actually have to behave.

Note that I'm also probably one of the worst offenders at pulling aggro precisely because of this attitude, and it does end up costing me a fair bit in repair bills.
wouldn't you like to mention that you use Feint AND Vanish to lower your threat.

all your base, are belong to us!

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/17/05, 5:45 PM   #13
♦ Praetorian
Mike Tyson
 
Praetorian's Avatar
 
Orc Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
Vanishing is obviously key.

One of the big parts of learning to play a rogue in boss fights is learning when you're oh-so-close to pulling aggro and vanishing right before. Then you can really let loose.

That's how you maximize DPS.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/17/05, 6:31 PM   #14
• moz
Get off my lawn.
 
moz's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Slug,November 17th, 2005 @ 2:09PM
Originally Posted by Lagomorph,November 17th, 2005 @ 3:04PM
If I hear a warrior talk about "I have more rage then I know what to do with" when MTing MC level and above bosses - am I right that they aren't doing their job?
Anyone who says that outside of the Vael fight is probably really bad at their job.
ding ding winner.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/17/05, 6:32 PM   #15
• Relwin
Motherfrakkin' Tigh
 
Relwin's Avatar
 
Orc Hunter
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Praetorian,November 17th, 2005 @ 4:45PM
Vanishing is obviously key.

One of the big parts of learning to play a rogue in boss fights is learning when you're oh-so-close to pulling aggro , get popped after pulling aggro, and ask for a battle rez. Then you can really let loose.

That's how you maximize DPS.
Fixed for Wodin.

i warned you about toasters bro

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/17/05, 6:37 PM   #16
• Wodin
Thoroughly Inebriated
 
Wodin's Avatar
 
Troll Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
:(

Most of my recent deaths haven't been aggro-related. Not much to be done about rogue yell + shadow flame + cleave or trying to solo an infernal.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/17/05, 7:05 PM   #17
orion821
Don Flamenco
 
Undead Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Praetorian,November 17th, 2005 @ 3:43PM
I haven't paid attention in a while, actually.

I think frostbolt? Waiting for a mage to chime in.
Frostbolts are fine for stage 3 after a few seconds of tanking.

One thing though: If you do pull agro as a caster she will not hesitate to teleport you in front of her and stick her talons up your skirt. A decent string or crits is one sure fire way of pulling agro. I have had the misfortune of getting 4 and 5 in a row which is very detrimental to my health.

Wait...why is my screen froze? What am I doing up here? UGH!!

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/17/05, 7:24 PM   #18
• bartolimu
palpably superior comprehension
 
bartolimu's Avatar
 
Undead Warlock
 
Mal'Ganis
Eh, I tanked her for 30 seconds at the start of phase 3. She's not that bad.

Our healers are that good though. :)

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/17/05, 7:28 PM   #19
Kaubel
Sledgehammer Emeritus
 
Kaubel's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
I seriously thought, for a split second, that we'd kill her before you lost agro.

Originally Posted by Lyta View Post
I've been trying to concentrate on studying for my Proof Methods test tomorrow, and all I can think of is your hotness, radiating out from the pixels on my monitor, seared straight into my neurons.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/17/05, 9:04 PM   #20
Ultramax
Soda Popinski
 
Ultramax's Avatar
 
Troll Warrior
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Wodin,November 17th, 2005 @ 3:35PM
Fuck you, Onyxia.
Next time we do Onyxia you or Khazal should tank her. You'll generate the most threat anyway.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/17/05, 10:00 PM   #21
inveratulo
King Hippo
 
Undead Priest
 
Mal'Ganis
I've seen 5000+ raid dps pulling trash in MC. That's pretty significant I think.

crappy troll knocked out the DSL now it takes 2 minutes to get to tits

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/18/05, 12:42 AM   #22
Lagomorph
Piston Honda
 
Lagomorph's Avatar
 
Night Elf Priest
 
Elune
Alrighty - so thanks for that bit of info - looks like our tanks have been slack-asses. proved it to myself after logging on to one of them and telling our rogues to try and pull aggro on a hatcher in the Broodlord room. Once they couldn't It settled the blame in my mind. Ony's similar in that when we have our no slackass tanks doing the job there's no issue.

And now that tanks being able to generate hate isn't an issue, now to figure out how to stop the instagib's on Broodlord...

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/18/05, 12:43 AM   #23
Lagomorph
Piston Honda
 
Lagomorph's Avatar
 
Night Elf Priest
 
Elune
Originally Posted by Ultramax,November 17th, 2005 @ 8:04PM
Originally Posted by Wodin,November 17th, 2005 @ 3:35PM
Fuck you, Onyxia.
Next time we do Onyxia you or Khazal should tank her. You'll generate the most threat anyway.
Had a warlock tank geddon for a bit once (on purpose no less) was a good time.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/18/05, 1:14 AM   #24
♦ Praetorian
Mike Tyson
 
Praetorian's Avatar
 
Orc Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
If this is about Broodlord, read this thread:

http://conquest.teamgbu.com/viewtopic.php?t=1194

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/18/05, 1:31 AM   #25
• Tehax
Pretty Pony
 
Tehax's Avatar
 
Goblin Death Knight
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Praetorian,November 17th, 2005 @ 11:14PM
75% probably have Crusader and 25% have Icy Chill.
1% Iron Counterweight

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Public Discussion

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Threat / Aggro in TBC Valarauko Public Discussion 11 10/24/06 10:36 PM
Thaddius Aggro Lodfish Public Discussion 51 09/28/06 1:29 PM
Aggro Mechanics Hamlet Public Discussion 64 09/21/06 1:04 PM
Totems and Aggro Flubber Public Discussion 3 08/07/06 4:19 PM