This is a general question for the tanks and DPS'ers of EJ, as well as gurgthock in his role as raid leader. As some background I coordinate a MC/BWL raid, and our warriors just do not seem to be holdign hate as well as they should be. Beyond that - we have some DPS that pushes too hard, and other DPS that doesn't push at all. Most damning - we have hunters that pull aggro. So while we definately have people who are being idiots - I'm looking for hard facts to confront folks with. Beyond simply slapping BoS on folks, I want more insight into the aggro-dynamics that play out in your raids, because without BoS, and having Downed nef - I'm hoping you're a bit more in tune with them.
How hard can your DPS push on a mob like Onyxia, Razorgore, or Lashlayer? (Taunt immune, targeted tank deaggro type mobs).
How is your DPS managing aggro?
How do you (gurgthock) manage your raid's DPS?
What IS your raid's DPS like?
What kind of time do you allow for your tanks to build hate before DPS engages (on a taunt immune mob)?
How much do your tanks relate their ability to hold hate to their talent build?
How big a component of their hate generation is tied to the DPS/speed of their weapon?
Do your tanks feel a given enchant increases their ability to hold hate? (lifesteal and crusader both have healing components, Str is a raw damage increase)
How, exactly are your tanks going about building, and maintaining hate?
How much of your warrior's hate generation is tied to their rage generation?
To what extent does your MT warrior's hate generation change when not fighting Vaelestraz? [note that we have Vael on farm status - just seems a good evaluation of "pure" (not limited by rage) tanking]
If I hear a warrior talk about "I have more rage then I know what to do with" when MTing MC level and above bosses - am I right that they aren't doing their job?
Originally Posted by Lagomorph,November 17th, 2005 @ 4:04PM
This is a general question for the tanks and DPS'ers of EJ, as well as gurgthock in his role as raid leader. As some background I coordinate a MC/BWL raid, and our warriors just do not seem to be holdign hate as well as they should be. Beyond that - we have some DPS that pushes too hard, and other DPS that doesn't push at all. Most damning - we have hunters that pull aggro. So while we definately have people who are being idiots - I'm looking for hard facts to confront folks with. Beyond simply slapping BoS on folks, I want more insight into the aggro-dynamics that play out in your raids, because without BoS, and having Downed nef - I'm hoping you're a bit more in tune with them.
How hard can your DPS push on a mob like Onyxia, Razorgore, or Lashlayer? (Taunt immune, targeted tank deaggro type mobs).
How is your DPS managing aggro?
How do you (gurgthock) manage your raid's DPS?
What IS your raid's DPS like?
What kind of time do you allow for your tanks to build hate before DPS engages (on a taunt immune mob)?
How much do your tanks relate their ability to hold hate to their talent build?
How big a component of their hate generation is tied to the DPS/speed of their weapon?
Do your tanks feel a given enchant increases their ability to hold hate? (lifesteal and crusader both have healing components, Str is a raw damage increase)
How, exactly are your tanks going about building, and maintaining hate?
How much of your warrior's hate generation is tied to their rage generation?
To what extent does your MT warrior's hate generation change when not fighting Vaelestraz? [note that we have Vael on farm status - just seems a good evaluation of "pure" (not limited by rage) tanking]
If I hear a warrior talk about "I have more rage then I know what to do with" when MTing MC level and above bosses - am I right that they aren't doing their job?
Originally Posted by Lagomorph,November 17th, 2005 @ 3:04PM
If I hear a warrior talk about "I have more rage then I know what to do with" when MTing MC level and above bosses - am I right that they aren't doing their job?
Anyone who says that outside of the Vael fight is probably really bad at their job.
Originally Posted by Lagomorph,November 17th, 2005 @ 4:04PM
How hard can your DPS push on a mob like Onyxia, Razorgore, or Lashlayer? (Taunt immune, targeted tank deaggro type mobs).
Onyxia? Rogues have to hold back during phases 1 and 3. Use two tanks on phase 3 to allow for more stability. I can't remember the last time a nonrogue pulled aggro.
Razorgore doesn't have a deaggro.... (He has a TEMPORARY memwipe that also stalls aggro generation for a while, but he's no Broodlord.)
It's best to be very aggressive on Broodlord. There's a good explanation of why on the Conquest forums right now, which I won't recopy in its entirety. The gist of it: You have a certain amount of time before your heal aggro hits your tank aggro plateau. Anemic DPS means you don't kill the mob before then, and you wipe. Broodlord is actually sort of like Kazzak in this sense.
How is your DPS managing aggro?
Hmm. Depends on the player. Kind of sloppy on trash. Very solid on bosses because the stakes are higher. I can't remember the last time someone outright fucked up with aggro on a major boss fight. Unless we're fighting Azuregos in which case people's brains turn to jelly and they mash backstab without hesitation.
How do you (gurgthock) manage your raid's DPS?
With an iron fist! Not sure what you mean. I arrange groups to maximize synergies between buffs and such.
What IS your raid's DPS like?
High. I generally get the impression we're a very DPS-heavy guild in many ways. We've had Vael kills that approach the 2-minute mark (third tank never got BA), we use single-target DPS to stay ahead of the spawns on Nef phase 1, etc. Hard to quantify beyond that, but I've never seen a video in which a boss's health dropped faster than I'm accustomed to seeing on our raids, for what it's worth.
What kind of time do you allow for your tanks to build hate before DPS engages (on a taunt immune mob)?
Hard to quantify. Not very long. On Broodlord DPS begins as soon as the whelps are dead. On Vael, maybe 5 seconds tops. The only mob I can think of where we have a solid amount of time before DPS is Razorgore because two tanks each need aggro, and it's hard for a second warrior to get much aggro when he isn't tanking.
How much do your tanks relate their ability to hold hate to their talent build?
A lot of our guys respecced Defiance for BWL and still have it. It's important. 31/5/15 or 31/4/16 are probably the most common talent builds we have. Defiance is the only really important part though. Toughness and Imp Shield Block are nice mitigation though, and Last Stand is great for stuff like Nef's warrior yell.
How big a component of their hate generation is tied to the DPS/speed of their weapon?
DPS? Probably half. You can't lump speed in there. Higher speed = more frequent HS, which has a hefty bonus aggro component.
Do your tanks feel a given enchant increases their ability to hold hate? (lifesteal and crusader both have healing components, Str is a raw damage increase)
It's all really a drop in the bucket. I don't think anyone has Lifestealing or +str. 75% probably have Crusader and 25% have Icy Chill.
How, exactly are your tanks going about building, and maintaining hate?
Defer to a warrior on this one. But ideally, use Revenge whenever possible, shield bash/slam whenever possible, and try to make as many swings as possible Heroic Strikes.
How much of your warrior's hate generation is tied to their rage generation?
Uh, a whole lot of it.
To what extent does your MT warrior's hate generation change when not fighting Vaelestraz? [note that we have Vael on farm status - just seems a good evaluation of "pure" (not limited by rage) tanking]
Hard to quantify but it's definitely a fair bit lower. 30%-21% maybe not so much -- tanking Firemaw or something is damn near infinite rage anyway. But 20% and below, you can't really emulate chain executes with infinite rage in any other setting.
If I hear a warrior talk about "I have more rage then I know what to do with" when MTing MC level and above bosses - am I right that they aren't doing their job?
Not necessarily. If they're using all their timers and still have spare rage, then they should look into a faster weapon. If they're not using all their timers, then they should learn 2 play.
Depends on the fight. Generally speaking I tend to push DPS as hard as possible and expect everyone else to follow suit. If I pull aggro and fuck up I'll accept responsibility for my actions and be frustrated that I caused problems, but I'd rather occasionally fuck up than spend the entirety of my raiding career doing 20% less damage than I'm capable of because I'm scared of pulling aggro. And if I'm doing X safely, then it's much easier for everyone else to convince themselves that X-k is safe as well. Certain fights are obviously aggro-sensitive(Fuck you, Onyxia. Take your Wing Buffet and knock yourself off a cliff) and as a DPS class my responsibility becomes being much more careful. So you can't have idiots behind the DPS classes or you're in trouble when they actually have to behave.
Note that I'm also probably one of the worst offenders at pulling aggro precisely because of this attitude, and it does end up costing me a fair bit in repair bills.
So when you say that your non-rogue DPS goes all out on Phase 3 Ony - are you referring to mages chain casting arcane missles, or chain casting Frostbolt?
Originally Posted by Wodin,November 17th, 2005 @ 4:35PM
Depends on the fight. Generally speaking I tend to push DPS as hard as possible and expect everyone else to follow suit. If I pull aggro and fuck up I'll accept responsibility for my actions and be frustrated that I caused problems, but I'd rather occasionally fuck up than spend the entirety of my raiding career doing 20% less damage than I'm capable of because I'm scared of pulling aggro. And if I'm doing X safely, then it's much easier for everyone else to convince themselves that X-k is safe as well. Certain fights are obviously aggro-sensitive(Fuck you, Onyxia. Take your Wing Buffet and knock yourself off a cliff) and as a DPS class my responsibility becomes being much more careful. So you can't have idiots behind the DPS classes or you're in trouble when they actually have to behave.
Note that I'm also probably one of the worst offenders at pulling aggro precisely because of this attitude, and it does end up costing me a fair bit in repair bills.
wouldn't you like to mention that you use Feint AND Vanish to lower your threat.
One of the big parts of learning to play a rogue in boss fights is learning when you're oh-so-close to pulling aggro and vanishing right before. Then you can really let loose.
Originally Posted by Slug,November 17th, 2005 @ 2:09PM
Originally Posted by Lagomorph,November 17th, 2005 @ 3:04PM
If I hear a warrior talk about "I have more rage then I know what to do with" when MTing MC level and above bosses - am I right that they aren't doing their job?
Anyone who says that outside of the Vael fight is probably really bad at their job.
Originally Posted by Praetorian,November 17th, 2005 @ 4:45PM
Vanishing is obviously key.
One of the big parts of learning to play a rogue in boss fights is learning when you're oh-so-close to pulling aggro , get popped after pulling aggro, and ask for a battle rez. Then you can really let loose.
Originally Posted by Praetorian,November 17th, 2005 @ 3:43PM
I haven't paid attention in a while, actually.
I think frostbolt? Waiting for a mage to chime in.
Frostbolts are fine for stage 3 after a few seconds of tanking.
One thing though: If you do pull agro as a caster she will not hesitate to teleport you in front of her and stick her talons up your skirt. A decent string or crits is one sure fire way of pulling agro. I have had the misfortune of getting 4 and 5 in a row which is very detrimental to my health.
Wait...why is my screen froze? What am I doing up here? UGH!!
I seriously thought, for a split second, that we'd kill her before you lost agro.
Originally Posted by Lyta
I've been trying to concentrate on studying for my Proof Methods test tomorrow, and all I can think of is your hotness, radiating out from the pixels on my monitor, seared straight into my neurons.
Alrighty - so thanks for that bit of info - looks like our tanks have been slack-asses. proved it to myself after logging on to one of them and telling our rogues to try and pull aggro on a hatcher in the Broodlord room. Once they couldn't It settled the blame in my mind. Ony's similar in that when we have our no slackass tanks doing the job there's no issue.
And now that tanks being able to generate hate isn't an issue, now to figure out how to stop the instagib's on Broodlord...
11/17/05, 5:04 PM
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