Elitist Jerks Resistance Mechanics in WotLK

02/03/09, 2:34 PM   #16
Shamgarr
Von Kaiser

Tauren Druid

Mal'Ganis
 Originally Posted by nightcrowler It seems to me that instead of using a 2 roll system, we ca achive the same results using a triangular probability distribution:
This does indeed give the exact same results, as the "two-roll" description was basically three triangles, the superposition of which yields the one triangle you describe.

This also means there's an even simpler way to put this. I'm going to keep things in terms of damage "resisted" rather than taken:

L = Level
R = Resistance
AR = Average Resist

AR = R/(5L+R)

x = possible resist. As noted, x must take the values 0.1*n, for integer n. Thus the probability of any particular x is simply

P(x) = 0.5 - 2.5*|x - AR|

or putting it all together,

P(x) = 0.5 - 2.5*|x - R/(5L+R)|

Negative probabilities are simply treated as zero. This is the same as wrapping the whole thing in the "theta" function you describe, but the meaning of that might not be as apparent to people as the fact that negative probabilities are meaningless.

 02/04/09, 2:24 PM #17 Rasmfrackn Glass Joe   Rasmfrackn Dwarf Paladin   Icecrown Thanks very much for a more thorough test. Environmental damage hadn't occurred to me. I posted something similar at Tankspot a couple weeks ago: General Resistance mechanics have changed? - TankSpot But I haven't had a chance to go back and get a better sample size than 200 at each level. The data certainly all seem consistent... and the formula makes a lot of sense, much more than a cubic or something. The armor mitigation formula basically follows the same model of X / (X + Y). I was also pointed to: Greedy goblin: Elemental resistance That has even less data, but he did do some testing with lower level mobs to see how level affected the values, which you can see in the graphs. He also arrived at the same formula as you did. Anyway, I'm personally convinced of the formula and may not head back to test anything more myself unless you'd like help collecting stats. I can certainly collect FrR stats from raid members on Sapphiron this week, for example. Rasm Last edited by Rasmfrackn : 02/04/09 at 3:34 PM.
 02/04/09, 3:46 PM #18 coredumperror Piston Honda     Hibernicus Tauren Druid   Vek'nilash It would likely take quite a long time, but a dedicated group of folks could go kill the 3 drakes in 10-man OS and then just let Sarth smack their FR tank down for several hours to collect data. I'm sure that healers could develop a mana regen rotation to prevent going oom over a very long period of time. You could cycle MOTW, FR Aura, and neither to get several different FR values tests without having to leave combat to change gear. Maybe you could get even faster fire damage attacks per minute by having your "tank" stand outside the central platform and get pelted by Pyrobuffet? That might be a binary spell though. If this idea would work (I've never done this kind of thing before, but I'm very interested in helping to perfect the new resistance formulas) I'll propose this to my guild today, to see if anyone's interested. What's a good way to record all this data accurately?
 02/04/09, 4:07 PM #19 Allev King Hippo     Allev Tauren Druid   Mal'Ganis A group of 10 will probably get more data by running a partial clear of BWL up to the drakes. Then get into combat with the one with FR pulses, and collect data on resists for each character. Ideally, each character has a different amount of FR (that you recorded beforehand) so you can collect as many resist sample points at a time as you have volunteers (up to 40). Alternately, you could get a group up to tackle Hydross, testing resists on his melee swings. Or you could try soloing/2-manning Baron Geddon, which is possible from all reports. I think clearing OS10 and holding it open is clearly a waste of everyone's time.
02/04/09, 4:09 PM   #20
Mijae
Don Flamenco

Tauren Druid

Tichondrius
 Originally Posted by coredumperror It would likely take quite a long time, but a dedicated group of folks could go kill the 3 drakes in 10-man OS and then just let Sarth smack their FR tank down for several hours to collect data. I'm sure that healers could develop a mana regen rotation to prevent going oom over a very long period of time. You could cycle MOTW, FR Aura, and neither to get several different FR values tests without having to leave combat to change gear. Maybe you could get even faster fire damage attacks per minute by having your "tank" stand outside the central platform and get pelted by Pyrobuffet? That might be a binary spell though. If this idea would work (I've never done this kind of thing before, but I'm very interested in helping to perfect the new resistance formulas) I'll propose this to my guild today, to see if anyone's interested. What's a good way to record all this data accurately?
Sarth has an enrage timer. I think it was at 15 minutes. So you would need to reset him a number of times for that much data.

 02/04/09, 4:38 PM #21 kalbear Bald Bull   Fellhoof Tauren Druid   Balnazzar Yeah, the problem there is that Sarth's breath is on a slow, random timer as well. In a 15 minute fight you're going to get around 60 data points from the breath, give or take a few. That means to get anything statistically meaningful you're going to be doing it for a good 8-10 hours, and 20 hours would be much better. I think it would be better to find something like BWL and test it there. Heck, there's no reason that it can't be done on Sapphiron with Frost resist either, and you'd get much faster results.
 02/05/09, 1:25 AM #22 Shamgarr Von Kaiser   Shamgarr Tauren Druid   Mal'Ganis I'm going to take logs of a 10-man Sapphiron this week, where everyone just has GotW, as a start. I'm not sure what a good program is to parse all that text into taken/resisted amounts, might have to do something cumbersome with Excel if I can't find anything else. As far as I can tell WWS is still trying to convert the damage into the old 25/50/75 resist system. For looking at higher resists, I typically tank KT in polar set anyways so will get a bit of data there. One thing I have no clue about is the phenomenon of "misses", and how that is or isn't affected by resist. I've seen a handful of full misses of Sarth's breath and KT's frostbolt, and I have no idea how that fits into the partial resist math worked out so far.
 02/05/09, 10:56 AM #23 Tunch Piston Honda   Bawks Undead Rogue   Detheroc NPC spell misses against you are just like player misses against NPCS. They are not at all affected by resist values, and only affected by a pre-set hit rate. Level 80 NPCs are going to miss you roughly 4% of the time just like you would them, and a boss level NPC will probably miss you 1-2% of the time.
 02/05/09, 11:21 AM #24 LucidityAxel Piston Honda   Gajj Troll Priest   Tichondrius Any boss-level "??" mob counts as player level + 3, so you should be able to go to any of the older raid bosses that do elemental damage and get some useful test data. For instance, I think pretty much everything Baron Geddon does is fire damage (not sure about his melee), so he could make for a decent test subject. If memory serves, his Living Bomb ability is the only thing that's not resistable.
02/06/09, 3:10 PM   #25
Rasmfrackn
Glass Joe

Icecrown
 Originally Posted by Tunch NPC spell misses against you are just like player misses against NPCS. They are not at all affected by resist values, and only affected by a pre-set hit rate. Level 80 NPCs are going to miss you roughly 4% of the time just like you would them, and a boss level NPC will probably miss you 1-2% of the time.
Yeah, I saw roughly the same miss rate vs. searing pain with 0 FR or 400+ FR.

 As far as I can tell WWS is still trying to convert the damage into the old 25/50/75 resist system.
How do you mean? Filtering down the combat log shows the entries as they were, and the resist numbers in the drill-downs are overall %s..

 02/06/09, 9:45 PM #26 Shamgarr Von Kaiser   Shamgarr Tauren Druid   Mal'Ganis Well if Sapphiron's aura is a constant amount, all I need is a big pile of combat log entries of the resisted amount, as this will not be modified by any of the various damage reduction effects or absorbs people have. Divide by the appropriate amount for normal/heroic and there's the partial resist %. The main issue is that the data really has to be completely uncorrupted to be meaningful - so no Frost Resist totems or auras at all, because there's always a chance someone was out of range, and I would need to be able to discard anyone like mages that might have put on mage armor, or a tank in polar gear. Everyone in the sample needs to have the same resistance (meaning probably just GOTW). If anyone else has a combat log, or can get one, that meets these criteria, I'd love to work with it. Hoping to get one this weekend, but might not, and either way the more data, the better. Based on my own most recent experience tanking Sartharion with 417 Fire Resist, I'm really starting to doubt the assumptions made so far about the level difference. I would strongly advise taking all the boss numbers up right now with a grain of salt until more data can be gathered. The level 80 numbers are solid (but not terribly useful except perhaps to PvPers), but the assumptions about 83 seem to not be matching some anecdotal experiences. My guess right now is that either the factor goes up higher than 415, bosses have a certain amount of spell penetration, or the formula is actually a simplification of a more general formula that incorporates both target level and caster level.
 02/09/09, 1:01 PM #28 kalbear Bald Bull   Fellhoof Tauren Druid   Balnazzar If the 500 coefficient is correct, we should require 334 resistance (not 277) to get to the 30% always resisted barrier, which is where a druid can deal with Sarth's breaths with only their own cooldowns/pots to mitigate it.
 02/09/09, 6:20 PM #29 Silverwind Von Kaiser     Silverwind Gnome Mage   Antonidas (EU) Looks like the 75% cap on partial resists is gone too since WotLK. I've seen tons of 80% an 90% partial resists on the obviously bugged Twilight Shift you get hit by while inside the portals at sarth. (WWS Log)
02/09/09, 7:08 PM   #30
Shamgarr
Von Kaiser

Tauren Druid

Mal'Ganis
 Originally Posted by Silverwind Looks like the 75% cap on partial resists is gone too since WotLK. I've seen tons of 80% an 90% partial resists on the obviously bugged Twilight Shift you get hit by while inside the portals at sarth. (WWS Log)
Now that's just plain weird... wonder what's going on there.

Thanks btw to Melthu for a nice chunk of Sapphiron data at 362 resist. I should reiterate that the formula and the 500 constant are still just educated guesses right now - really being sure of any of this is just going to take a lot more data.

I'd be happy to look through logs of anyone that can give *definite* resist amounts for even just a few of the players in a parse. Since I've got a lot of 75 resist data already, parses with some players wearing some resist gear would be nice. The raw .txt combat log is quickest to work with if you have it, though WWS links are fine too - unless I'm missing something I just have to copy/paste only 100 entries at a time.

Some particularly informative amounts to shoot for would be the "expected" thresholds given in the updated first post. At 125 resistance, for example, it should be impossible to get a 0% resist, and only 3 resist amounts should be possible due to being right on a 20% average. If a log where someone is positive their resist is 125 the entire fight shows this not to be the case, the 500 number would likely be inaccurate.

 Elitist Jerks Resistance Mechanics in WotLK