Axl_Stukov

Here's a comment from Bornakk clarifying the new Immortal/Undying: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> New Immortal/Undying Now on a Per Boss Basis

"Things keep on changing on the PTR, but currently this is correct. The achievement is setup to be completed over multiple resets, but you still must have no deaths on a boss on a given week and we know that wipes include deaths."

So 1 death = no credit for that boss that week, even if you fully wipe then kill him with no deaths next attempt.

 

Enova

I'm rather disappointed myself, but I'll wait it out and see if this is indeed the final version.

Then again, it grants you the same title as the current Naxx achievement, and I can assume that by the time people do Immortal, take two, the original Immortal will already be trivialized by the amount of gear (and I'm assuming experiece - but some people never learn) from Uludar and maybe a few extra resets of clearing Naxx just for kicks.

Guilty as charged ^

 

Copernicus

"No plans to change the Naxx achievement. The titles for the Ulduar achievements should be different by the time the patch launches."

-Bornakk

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immortal synonym | Thesaurus.com - so many options! I'm hoping for amaranthine and perdurable.

 

wayth

That still doesn't do anything about trivializing the current Immortal title. Unless they remove it altogether, there's nothing preventing people from going back it t8 or t9 and brute forcing it. In my opinion, the achievement should stay available, but the title should be removed in 3.1 like the proto-drakes.

 

Zuel

What about Immortal is further brute forcing going to help? Every non-gimmick fight is trivialized already by current gear levels, I'm not sure what a full tier 8/9 raid is going to do. Immortal is more about attentiveness than gear.

The gear will never be so overpowering that you kill Thaddius before he changes polarity, or KT before he casts frost blast, or whatever. Tier 7 gear is already enough to kill Gluth before a decimate, Anub before a locust swarm, etc. Tier 8 will add a few hundred hit points, but it won't stop someone from chaining a frost blast or crossing a polarity.

 

Douglas

The number of people you need, and therefore the opportunities for disconnects and other kinds of fail.

 

Enova

In theory, what gear might do is allow a tank not to get flattened by patchwerk in the last 5%, or allow you to survive long enough to move if someone disconnected just after his polarity shifted, or to allow for a zombie hit during decimate, or, as it happened for us, to let the tank survive if he spikes during a swarm and falls out of LoS for a second, and pretty much allow for more mistakes, not for faster kills.

Guilty as charged ^

 

Calgar

I gotta agree with Zuel here, 1000 more HP, and 200 more AP isn't going to make immortal much easier. 90%+ of failures are completely gear independent. Frost blasts/void zones, blessing of Sac on KT, disconnects, etc are all unsurvivable.

Our list of recent immortal failures;

Mage hit by decimate for more health then he has due to commanding/bloodpact dropping (Bug)
Disconnected priest MC'er on Rav causing a death at ~5% (Random disconnect)
Taunt resist/screw up during a decimate on Gluth resulting in tank death (Tank failure)
Agro'ing trash through a wall during Gothik (Bug)
Disconnected hunter on Anub BEFORE the fight, way up the hall way. We engage and kill anub. He logs back in at ~10% left and dies to locust swarm in the hall. Stood in no less then 6 stacks of locust swarm and died to it in the hallway. (Player failure)

Extra stats from T8/T9 MIGHT have saved us on the Gothik trash agro, and maybe the gluth stupidity. The instance is already trivialized in T7.25 gear.

My bet is on enduring or eternal for the new title.

 

footloop

I don't think we've had a tank die to Patch since early January, and it's been even longer than that since we bothered moving during Anub's swarm. The fights are already trivial, and yet immortal is still not that easy to get. Another tier of gear will definitely make it easier, but like Douglas mentioned that's more because you can drop the people who have faulty connections or are just a little slow without any major impact on raid strength.

 

BlueYinYang925

This is a good point. I joined wow around the days of ZA's deployment. I missed out on all the classic raids. Now I have attempted with PUGs to venture into BWL, but if you don't know what you're doing, the gear your wearing will only get you so far. And this extends to any instance / raid in my opinion. Granted it may be difficult to die in Deadmines wearing T7 gear. However, if someone were to engage multiple mobs and just stand there, they would eventually die. It's just an example though extreme as it may be.

You still need a certiain level of experienced player with knowledge about the area they are in that will not be disconnecting and putting lives in jeopardy.

 

Talq

The issue with Immortal in Ulduar is that the first thing people will want to do to try for immortal would be to skip all of the hard modes - all 11 of them. Which would mean no hard mode loot as well. So it would be safe to expect it wouldn't be even attempted often.

Like others, my experience of trying for Undying (have) and Immortal (well sick of it) is that all it does is show up the many interesting, indeed frequently buggy, ways people can die. And create much unnecessary aggravation.

 

Fugazor

While new Immortal is much better than old one it still does not fit instance with hard modes. It feels like forced choice - for example Lava Blows vs Sarth3D.

I suppose most guilds will make one Immortal attempt per boss and if somebody will die then they will wipe and proceed to work with hard mode for that week. While this will be fine at start it may cause drama later when most will have their Immortal and will be pissed about missing hard mode loot.

Other option will be making second raid for those who didn't get in raid "A" with hard modes (most guilds have ~40 people roster) and well geared alts or friends of guild. This however will be problematic too and most likely won't happen until you got most/all hard modes on farm.

As for Naxx Immortal - gear will surely make it somewhat easier as faster kills = less chance to fail and/or less people = less chance to fail. Another bonus is that KT will not reset aggro anymore and we lost quite a few Immortals to those funny frostbolts just after MC - granted it can be avoided with better play but again this change will make it easier. Should title stay then? It will be easier - but will it be THAT much easier?

 

4LV

Throwing my lot with this. I've recently completed Brood of Nozdormu exalted, and believe me it is absolutely possible to wipe in mostly level 80 epics inside a level 60 instance. Twins, C'thun trash, surely most of it is related to stupid people unable to understand the mechanics, and let's be fair, none of us would want to raid on a regular basis with "those" people, but there are fights and mechanics that will not change much even with four times as much hp/damage as the intended level.

 

Mideci

This is more like raid-leader/warlock/warrior failure. I believe this "problem" was discussed already in this thread and/or on several strategy sites. There is nothing about Gluth that requires you to use Commanding Shout or Blood Pact. Had neither been in place, no one would've died.

 

Zuel

While that's well and good, that's not the point. It's still a bug with the encounter, and it's one of the many reasons why Naxx Immortal is so dumb and frustrating. Of course you don't have to use commanding or blood pact, but you should be able to without the risk of instantly dying to a boss mechanic that should be pretty well fine tuned after 2+ years.

You can also die to decimate if you get hit by a zombie right when decimate is cast. The server lags maybe a millisecond and registers the hit as after the cast, and boom, there goes your Immortal. You know what the solution is? Kill Gluth before he can even cast decimate. In other words, ignore the only mechanic that means anything on that fight.

In any case, Ulduar Immortal isn't going to be as painful as Naxx, and there really isn't much risk of ignoring hard mode loot for however many number of weeks consecutively because you're trying for the title. Taking one boss at a time and making the decision for that week to knock that part of the achievement out or go for that extra piece of ilvl 239 loot isn't really tough, since you don't have to do the entire instance of easy mode bosses only to be crushed at Yogg-Saron 5% and feel that you've wasted an entire week farming bad loot. If they insist on keeping these types of achievements in the game, this is probably the best way to go about it.

 

magrat

I don't think ulduar immortal vs hard mode is an issue since immortal part 2 isn't part of ulduar meta.
So unless you have some achivement points jukies, you can do hard modes every reset and after some time you should complete this achivement.

 

• Heeno

Immortal Part 2 is on the meta, but it is on a per-boss basis. So each week you can decide to omit the hard mode on a specific boss and as long as no one dies, you get credit for that boss.

 

Razzberry

Unless I'm missing something, hard modes and Immortal Part 2 are not mutually exclusive. I don't see any reason a guild wouldn't just do the hard modes and just focus on keeping everyone alive each week. Sure, it may be more difficult, but it's hardly a choice between one or the other.

 

Zuel

Unless I'm missing something, I thought the focus on every encounter was to keep everyone alive. If there was an achievement on Sartharion for no one to die, and that achievement was part of a meta achievement which gave you a pretty mount and something to brag about to others, would you try it with 3 drakes up?

It is a choice between one or the other.

 

saiyajinmaster

Yes? Unless an encounter is designed on some kind of razor's edge where people are always dying, I see no dilemma in doing the hard modes and not having people die at all now and then. This type of achievement should basically be coming naturally to any halfway decent guild. The only question is how long we'll have before the drake goes away again, I'm guessing a while.

 

david0925

Does this really matter? There are no longer tangible rewards for immortal when 3.1 is gone, and people won't even treat the title seriously unless maybe if they see the Black Protodrake. It's the same thing as even getting Nightfall today: every week of gearing adds up and make it trivial. Should I ask to have nightfall taken away by January when I completed it earlier?

A lot of these current achievements are doable second or third week into wrath, so where should we set the standard for taking away titles? I think this is adding unnecessary stress to Blizzard against a already demanding player base, the better players will be finding new titles to wear anyway.

Maniq is my hero

 

Vihermaali

Talking about the achievements, the date is here the key. Yeah, people may brute force it when they have higher tier gear. However, one thing you can not fool is the date on the achievement. For example, If you think 3.1 makes immortal trivial then you should remember the day when 3.1 went live: immortals achieved before that date will hold more value to you than immortals achieved after 3.1. Immortal achieved in 2008 has a whole another sound to it

Personally, I just went after the WoW title that sounded best on my character and I am satisfied with that.

If it's the prestige you are after, I suggest doing all the raiding achievements of current top tier. While the achievements themselves may not be worlds hardest thing to do, doing all of them does show a certain degree of dedication to anyone.

 

4LV

Besides, date of achievement or no, Naxx25 "Immortal" wearing tier9 gear is still going to be more prestigious than not having Naxx25 "Immortal" in tier9. Someone who did it properly when Naxx was bleeding edge (okay I really can't say that with a straight face) will still probably look down on said person, but there's untold millions who won't.

 

Indaria

one of the biggest drawbacks with immortal is that it excludes encounter designs with the kind of soft enrage slowly picking people off (vael, azgalor, teron) which in my opinion is quite a fun boss mechanic. More fun than the hard enrages, being the obvious alternatives to those.
However, immortal must be one of the most criticized achievements out there, i cannot see why they are so fond of it.
Unnecessary tension, spite and a dreadful mood in the results being the reprisals of a minor but fatal screwup is not a good design.

 

Enova

This is one of my biggest gripes with the Immortal style achievements, but I can imagine that they could add a 'Disabled' debuff rather than a permanent death if they really wanted to do that. Or, they could just remove the encounter from the list, much like they did with the 4 Horsemen and The Dedicated Few.

Guilty as charged ^