I don't know about Blizzard doing it, but I think you could write an AddOn to check everyone in the raid within a certain radius for their gear itemlevels.

(Assuming InspectUnit() works as I expect.)

There's a normal version of that achievement: Observed

Herald of the Titans has no 25 man equivalent, which may be intentional considering that Realm First! Celestial Defender and Realm First! Death's Demise have no 10 man equivalents.

What evidence of this is there?

A U25 player is going to have 226 pieces in all slots.

A U10 player has Yogg10, Algalon10 (if you're running it in a mixed raid where some people are over the cap), other U10 hard modes, KT25 pugs, Emalon, BOE gear, and other sources to get ilvl 226 gear. Plus, there are numerous superior trinkets below 226.

Blizzard never claimed there would be a perfectly level playing field.

They could make an achievement for killing Algalon25 with only gear available in game but surely you can see how pointless that would be. If you want to see if someone did that just see if the date on their Heroic: Observed pre-dates 3.2.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the U10 hard-mode loot is all really, really well itemized. I would say that without a shadow of a doubt the U10 hard mode loot is better than that U25 normal mode loot even though both have the same iLevel.

The point is that Herald of the Titans offers a separate title from Observed. The closest analogy in the 25 man is the realm first, and my guess is that this is intentional. It solidifies 25 man raids as the competitive progression path where only the realm first kill is awarded titles, while the 10 man title is available to everyone who wants it (until the next expansion, presumably).

I don't see what they could do to be honest. Every suggestion I've seen/heard has major flaws and usually screws over the majority of people to cater for a tiny minority of a tiny minority.

Maybe something like this:

The cleanest solution here seems to be adding a progress/tracking element to the achievement itself. There's something similar to this for the 6m Malygos achievement, where you can shift-click the achievement and get a timer for how long you have remaining. A similar mechanic built into the 226-max achievement could display green/red depending whether your raid's gear is eligible for the achievement. Given that Blizzard has done this in the past, I'd assume they'll do it again here.

From mm-champion :

And here is the new pop corn movie of this summer : Return of The Immortal.

Nothing to say that it is very badly designed because it will never be tried before the guild completed all the hard modes/alternative modes of the instance. Which is likely to never happen for most of the guilds.

Isnt it just rewording.
You cant die to any single boss for it to count for that specific boss, but you can still die to all the others?

It basically means your immortal try has to be the first try that run on that boss. So you can't repeatedly wipe on the same guy till no one dies. Should be about 1% the frustration of the current one though.

Feat of Strength maybe, although that is still extremely sketchy. There will never be an achievement or reward that forces you to avoid higher level content if you ever want to complete it.

Nothing wrong with the 226 rule at all. Hardmode 10man loot will be 226 will it not, why would anyone care if someone else has access to a wider variety of 226 gear? (You can probably get pretty freaking close if not complete to a full 226 set between 2drake / maly / kt / hard-mode 10 man Ulduar).

edit: The general point is if a raid can do the 25 man hard mode version realm first, they might as well have done the 10 man hard mode version. Since the 25man version hard modes are all supposed to be (and very likely will be) harder than the 10 man version there is no point to have a realm first 10 man achievement.

It makes sense.

Not if you are a 10-man guild, as the 2drake/maly/kt ilvl 226 items are those... from the 25-man versions of these raids, not the 10-man. For a pure 10-man, the only source of ilvl 226 items are the hardmodes of Ulduar.

So many entitlement issues come up whenever people argue about achievements...

Realistically, if there were an achievement in place to complete Agalon 25 man Hard Mode using only iLvl 190 gear, people would try it eventually, and someone would get it eventually. There is nothing wrong with ridiculously hard or annoying achievements, so long as they're not required by some meta achievement whose other parts are much easier/less annoying - all the extra requirements mean is that less people will get it. There is nothing wrong with some achievements that are uncommon.

Seeing people complain about the Agalon.10.Hard one is particularly ridiculous - if sub-226 gear isn't your normal gear, you are raiding Ulduar 25 and have other 25 man achievements to do. The only reason to do the 10 man is completionism, which means you're willing to go out of your way to do achievements anyway - farming up a set of weak gear for one fight you only need to do once is a small price to pay on the scale of things completionists routinely do in WoW. If it's too much bother for you, don't do it.

If you see it as a dangerous precedent, I don't see why. Yes, they could add max iLvL requirements to all 10man achievements, so what? If your 25 man guild thinks the extra gear to bank is too much trouble, they'll stick to 25 man achievements - if you've finished all 25 man achievements, you're probably bored enough that doing the 10 man ones in iLvL appropriate gear is more fun than stomping them in Ulduar.25.Hard gear anyway. I don't see any reason people "deserve" any achievements at all, the ones that are available may as well be made of equal difficulty to everyone who chooses to attempt them. It's a "separate progression path", overused as that term is, they may as well make you progress through it separately, instead of just completing the 25 man path and then jumping to the end of the 10 man path with minimal effort.

The why is that you end up having to stockpile gear solely for that purpose. In fact, you might have to farm specific gear for that purpose even though you have better gear already. It takes a lot of the fun out of the game. And for hybrid classes, storing that gear is a real issue. Regardless, if you have the gear to do the achievements and want to do them, you shouldn't be tasked with going and getting inferior gear.

The meta achievements are the game within the game right now. If they require them to have nerfed gear down the road to do them, 25-man raiders are going to be less likely to get to enjoy them because at least some people won't want to bother with maintaining gear just for them. And that makes groups harder to come by, etc.

The real issue is that gear-limited achievements are creating a problem to solve one that doesn't really exist. No one "stomped" Sarth 3d/10 in their initial tries.

You don't end up "having to do" anything. If you think completing achievements in a progression path other than your own is fun, you'll can do what is required to meet those achievements. If you don't, you won't. If it's fun you're after, I don't see how making the 10 man achievement no less trivialized by overgearing than the 25 man one is reducing your fun.

They did however stomp just about every other 10 man achievement that they overgeared. Pointing out the one achievement that's actually harder on 10 than 25 as support for your point is, well, very poor support for your point.

So one more time: It's just a chore to keep all the excess gear to them. Yes, it's fun. And with a reward at the end -- no matter how redundant -- many of us enjoy doing it. I'm just not persuaded that there'll never be a Sarth 3D/10 again where the reward is flat out completing something hard. Maybe they'll get it right.

I find it hard to believe that the chorus shares the opinion that 25-man raiders don't want to do the 10-man content in a game where content often = achievements. On our server, most of the "high end" raiders finished Glory of the Raider as well as Heroic: Glory of the Raider.

The limited use of this mechanic doesn't trouble me. Let there be a special achievement/title. It's expansion of this mechanic to the entire 10-man content that would disappoint me greatly. And it's very artificial. 25-man raiders would still have more easy access to the iLvl capped gear from simply running both instances each week. They will outgear 10-man raiders for the majority of the game. If Blizzard wants to change >that< they can talk about it. But so far GC has said they don't.

This isn't something you have to do on a weekly basis (I doubt anyone with significant amounts of 232+ ilvl gear needs to even bother with Algalon10); its something you do once.

Nobody even needs to farm that many pieces; your current gearset of farming KT25 for 5 months is pretty close to as optimal as it gets basically for the Herald Achievement.

You have to store your old weapon(s) and replacements for the 2-3 pieces of ilvl 239 gear that you might possibly acquire in the first few weeks. There's an awful lot of complaining over a small handful of bank slots.

If there's another Sarth 3D.10 debacle again with a max iLvL tacked on, all it means is that the 10 man will be even more ridiculously hard - although it'll still level the playing field more between guilds that don't do 25 mans and those that do, it'll be ridiculously hard for both.

I don't have the opinion that 25 man raiders don't want to do 10 man content - I like doing 10 man content every now and then. But if I'm doing achievements in 10 mans, I'd rather do them at the same difficulty as on 25 man (i.e without a gear advantage) than doing roflstomping them because I'm using better gear than they were balanced for.

It took us about a full night of attempts to beat the 25 man 6 minute Malygos timer, and we did it with maybe 5 seconds to spare the first time. That same night we went and one shotted the same achievement on 10 man, with over 30 seconds to spare. If I had to say, the 25 man version was a much more satisfying achievement to get. Other than Nightfall and I guess Undying, I don't even remember when I got the 10 man achievements, because they didn't take any effort, we just waltzed into the instances in 25 man gear and picked them up while basically farming badges.

As a tank in BC, where I was forced to keep ~2 sets of gear for just "normal" tanking, plus a normal FR set, an Illidan FR set, a SR set and a healing set( not to mention random pieces of ret gear for when I would do solo content ), believe me when I say that I know where you're coming from when you complain about storing extra sets of gear.

But to complain about having to do that for a single achievement - that's not even aimed at you - well, it seems a bit petty. Is it really so much stress on you to maintain one different set( if you want to - since it doesn't limit progression or anything else ) that Blizzard should completely dismiss the only true 10-man achievement out there?

As for the slippery slope argument, I think it's overblown at this point. If, in 3 content patches, you still feel compelled to lug around different sets for all of these achievements, then bring up your complaints then. Otherwise, just let it ride and see what happens. It's not like Blizzard's making decisions that they'll be unable to overturn in the future if they turn out to be a bad idea.

Everyone makes fair points, and, again, I'm not really complaining about the first pass of this. I'm just concerned about where it's heading. Arena gear started with better teams get faster (more points), then "just weapon and highly visible shoulders" for high rated team. Then, everything had a rating. I am hoping this doesn't follow that trend and wish the 10 man guilds good luck in Ulduar.

It honestly hadn't occurred to me that 6-min Malygos was so easy because of our gear. Surely that is true. Perhaps I romanticize the challenge of Undying and Sarth 3d/10 and forget how meaningless the rest felt. Anyway, moving on.

Farming points. 25ers will get double the points for doing both 10 and 25. It boils down to this?
So, what if the raid achievements only gave points once? The only difference would be that the achievement said [Heroic - %]. It basically means Heroic-mode would award both but without the points.

So what's the incentive to do 10r as a 25er? It would be easier points (without gear limits).

And the server first still goes to 25er because they already have the limited gear, they don't have to farm Ulduar for it.

What was the point again? People want "double points"?