Farming points. 25ers will get double the points for doing both 10 and 25. It boils down to this?
So, what if the raid achievements only gave points once? The only difference would be that the achievement said [Heroic - %]. It basically means Heroic-mode would award both but without the points.
So what's the incentive to do 10r as a 25er? It would be easier points (without gear limits).
There are other incentives.
For example, we raid 25 mans as part of an alliance. But I've been running 10 mans as guild raids. So there will be some people who only run 10 mans, some who have a few bits of 25 man gear, some who wear a piece or two of arena gear, some who've been in PUGs to Archavon's older brother et al. I'm not really bothered about achievements, but would attempt the hard modes in 10 man for the challenge/fun.
I have no trouble seeing that an achievement isn't aimed at me and my group (there is no way I'm going to inspect everyone's gear to check that it isn't too good and demand that they take it off and keep a spare set of lower level pieces just for a title), but I bet that even in dedicated 10 man guilds, there will be people who pick up the odd piece of 25 man gear. And in a more casual setup like mine, we'll be going with a mixture.
I think RLs have enough to think about without having to fuss over people keeping old gear.
Everyone will always have the same achievement point cap.
No, if someone does only 10 mans their "cap" is lower because they "can't" get the "Heroics". They have to farm 25mans to "compete" with "everyone else".
What Linnet said, most will have a mix of gear that probably wouldn't fit the ilevel requirement. And I agree, it's a bit of a hassle to check everyone's ilevel.
I'm not really ruling out ilevel requirements (from specials at least) but there shouldn't be double points for those who choose to do 10 and 25 man.
(shadout's post #457 below clears my original point of post)
It won't be any more of a hassle to check for your raids ilvl gear than it is currently to check for resistances or items in people's bags. If ora2 doesn't update to include the check someone will write something that does.
I think all this "pure 10 man" talk is getting a little far fetched. It's fine if you want to do it but nobody is making you, not other players, not Blizzard. 10 man raiders are not locked out of 25 man content. While yes it is harder to scale up to a 25 man group than it is to go down to 10 it's still perfectly doable. Find another regular 10 man group and get together once in a while to work through most of the easy 25 man achievements. I expect Ulduar to be more difficult than Naxx, but not so much more difficult that any group made up of halfway serious 10 man raiders won't be able to make progress. So you might not get all the more difficult ones right away, a lot of regular 25 man groups won't either. If you are a real achievement junkie come back with an extra tier of gear and finish them off then, that's what a lot of people will do.
I don't have most of the PvP achievements because I'm not in an arena team, I don't particularly like battlegrounds and it's just generally not "my thing". I'll probably chip away at them over time but in the meantime I have self-capped my achievement point total by not putting in the time and effort it takes to do the PvP stuff. I'm not whining about how they should separate PvP and PvE achievement points because when it comes down to it the only thing stopping me from getting those points is me. People who refuse to even work on 25 man achievements because they are self proclaimed "10 man raiders" are doing the exact same thing.
Its not exactly the same though. 10man and 25 man achievements are basically the same achievements done twice. It would make some sense to combine then in a way so you only got points from doing either the 25man or the 10man achievement (while keeping the different rewards).
Both for 10man raiders who cant/wont do 25mans, but also for 25man raiders who feel they shouldnt 'need' to do 10mans on top of their 25man raiding to be completionists, when it just is the same content done twice.
No, if someone does only 10 mans their "cap" is lower because they "can't" get the "Heroics". They have to farm 25mans to "compete" with "everyone else".
Your cap still remains the same. You are putting imaginary restrictions of your own on yourself, not the game. If there is one thing at all I've learned in the past 4 years of raiding it's that there is no "can't", its just a matter if you are willing to or not. There are too many options, and alternative ways to accomplish any level of raiding, but it is truly up to you alone. Stop making up restrictions(excuses/lies) as so many other "casuals" do when they complain about pretty much anything.
Both for 10man raiders who cant/wont do 25mans, but also for 25man raiders who feel they shouldnt 'need' to do 10mans on top of their 25man raiding to be completionists, when it just is the same content done twice.
It seems a bit silly to me to complain about having to do extra work in order to be a completionist. Especially in a game like WoW. Personally I enjoy having two sets of achievements to go for, one with my guild and one with my smaller group of rl friends.
It seems a bit silly to me to complain about having to do extra work in order to be a completionist. Especially in a game like WoW. Personally I enjoy having two sets of achievements to go for, one with my guild and one with my smaller group of rl friends.
This. It does suck from the perspective of this theoretical "hardcore 10-man raider", but it's nice being able to gather a group of people on an offnight and have something to work on. Some of the 10-man achievements (6-minute Malygos, Sarth3D) weren't even complete pushovers with our decked-out 25-man gear. Nobody's going to want to do these things on the side if they aren't being rewarded for it, though.
If person 1 is doing 10-man raids, and person 2 is doing 10 and 25-man raids, then why does person 1 deserve equal compensation to person 2? I can understand the logic behind wanting someone who only does 10-mans to get the same compensation as someone who only does 25s, but I don't see what's wrong with giving more to the person who does more work.
I see an alarming change of mind here with many people complaining about something being not "reachable" for certain groups or people. WoW has lived now for over 4 years, in my eyes primarily due to the fact that there was (for the average player/raid) always something more that was to be done. This state climaxed for my raid when Naxxramas 40 was released while we were still trying Huhuran. We had no chance of clearing Naxx before the release of BC, we were perfectly aware that we had neither the time and most likely not the playerskill for achieving this. But that was ok, because the game lived through its content and a "healthy" unattainability of some content. This always gave the feeling of being far away from completing the game. This, of course, does not apply to everyone. Some guilds are faster, some are slower and some are never satisfied, no matter what is thrown at them, but this is another topic and not to be discussed here.
But this average happiness has totally changed. Nowadays there is complaint because one is not (or does not see himself being) capable of obtaining every achievement point in the game (remember: Achievement points are worth nothing). Everything is incredibly accessible compared to the state of the game three years ago, so I do not really get what changed peoples minds.
This is not to be seen as a general complaint or QQ, This is the achievement topic for 3.1 and i do not intend to distract here. I'd like you to comment on this situation and your view of the achievements offered in Ulduar for both 10 and 25 player raids. I am aware of the fact that the game has changed a lot, and I do not mourn the good old days on principle. Instead, I see a positive change towards this level of "healty unattainability" we had before WotLK, as there are tons of achievements that can be done, with most of them being hardly combinable in one boss kill. So at least for me, this is a very welcome situation, as we face more challenges than we can handle as fast as Glory of the Raider could be done. That being said, I can hardly understand those who complain about some of these being unattainable, as this situation puts us in a state where we have to work hard and probably long to get it done.
It's like you think me or anyone else with a different opinion would be complaining. For your information, I have Glory of the Raider and I raid 25 as well as 10 mans. Everyone would consider me hardcore.
Your cap still remains the same. You are putting imaginary restrictions of your own on yourself, not the game.
Yeah, the actual cap in the game remains the same. But in reality it's not exactly fair for everyone. And it doesn't make any sense.
I quote once again, read very carefully now. Rain on the infractions.
Its not exactly the same though. 10man and 25 man achievements are basically the same achievements done twice. It would make some sense to combine then in a way so you only got points from doing either the 25man or the 10man achievement (while keeping the different rewards).
You'd still get the achievements, just not double the points.
10-man Sarth3D is a poor example. Blizz has admitted that it isn't appropriately tuned - it isn't even realistically doable for the overwhelming majority of 10-man guilds. The fact that the general consensus is that you need 25-man gear just to have a realistic shot at it should tell you that something isn't right.
Originally Posted by alienangel
If there's another Sarth 3D.10 debacle again with a max iLvL tacked on, all it means is that the 10 man will be even more ridiculously hard - although it'll still level the playing field more between guilds that don't do 25 mans and those that do, it'll be ridiculously hard for both.
Blizzard hasn't admitted anything of the sort. Here are some relevant quotes:
Many would argue that the 25-player modes were undertuned. Sarth 3D was intended to be something that guilds worked on for weeks. At first it looked like that was going to be the case, but after groups got geared up, most guilds that seriously tried it seemed to be able to manage before too long.
I am saying we screwed up and made the 10 player harder a lot harder than the 25 player version. I think you are arguing from an absolute POV that 10 was hard and 25 was on target. You could just as easily say that 10 was the target and 25 was too easy.
Please try to have some basis for your statements other than "Blizzard says" or "the general consensus is."
But this average happiness has totally changed. Nowadays there is complaint because one is not (or does not see himself being) capable of obtaining every achievement point in the game (remember: Achievement points are worth nothing).
Instead, I see a positive change towards this level of "healty unattainability" we had before WotLK, as there are tons of achievements that can be done, with most of them being hardly combinable in one boss kill.
First of all, people aren't complaining, merely stating their opinions.
Its great there are achievements to work toward. Imo achievements is the best thing the game have got for a long time, it add goals to the game and a feel of constant progression, and I like trying to get all the achievements (I'd surely rather get 10 achievement points than an item).
At the same time however I don't think its necessarily positive to have 2 set of achievements within the same aspect of the game (raiding) which are the same. Blizzards goal with 10man and 25man raiding seemed to be two separate raid progression paths. Right now thats not the case of course, since Naxx is easy and fast enough for people to pug in both 25 and 10man. But if we assume we one day end up with instances challenging enough for the people they were made for, then doing your own raids (whether its 10man or 25man) should supposedly be the full raid experience, taking up your raid schedule.
It would make sense (imo) if achievements supported this separation of the raid progressions.
I see the point of having fun with a few friends in 10mans on off nights, but its not like removing the points from doing 'double raid achievements' would take that away. There would still be achievements to get (just like Feats of strength gives no points now), and rewards in form of mounts, titles and whatever.
Its not about having easy access to achievements. I personally left my sanity behind a long time ago, doing crazy things just to get 10 points in a 'worthless' achievement system. Its more a question of 'fairness' (although the achievement system isnt supposed to be very fair, we are talking about a time sink after all) and reasonable proportions in the achievement system. Raid achievements takes fairly big percentage of the total amount of achievements available, and it only gets more and more with each new raid instance.
Blizzard hasn't admitted anything of the sort. Here are some relevant quotes:
Please try to have some basis for your statements other than "Blizzard says" or "the general consensus is."
Where did I say anything about blizzard admitting anything?
I said (implied I guess, although I don't think you'll deny the clarity of the implication) that Sarth3D.10 is harder than Sarth3D.25. Your blizzard quotes, the latter of which I was thinking of when I made the post, clearly mark that disparity as greatly undesired. If you're assuming I mean that the 10 man version should be easier, you are assuming incorrectly. I would be happier if all the achievements were harder. Should be 2 minute patchwerk, 10 minute spider wing, loatheb with no spores and a 6 minute timer, immortal with no deaths on trash, etc.
Either way, calling it a debacle was never claimed to be anything other than my own opinion.
If you're going to quote me with instructions not to do things, please try to make sure the quote is guilty of what you object to.
Last edited by alienangel : 04/06/09 at 11:39 PM.
Reason: harder!
It won't be any more of a hassle to check for your raids ilvl gear than it is currently to check for resistances or items in people's bags. If ora2 doesn't update to include the check someone will write something that does.
I've had item checks turned off since early Molten Core. If someone wants to ask me something they can ask me.
Anyway, the only real problem I can see with this ilevel check is that ilevel is quite a hidden value. You can't even see your items ilevel unless you use an addon for it. Blizzard should implement some way of verifying that everyone are indeed below the cap. Relying on addons, and their short comings, for this I can't see as an intuitive mechanic. Imagine explaining it to someone that doesn't use any addons at all, and in all honesty why should they be forced to get some addons? If you can't raid with the default UI then the defaul UI should be changed (which Blizzard are doing constantly).
I've had item checks turned off since early Molten Core. If someone wants to ask me something they can ask me.
Anyway, the only real problem I can see with this ilevel check is that ilevel is quite a hidden value. You can't even see your items ilevel unless you use an addon for it. Blizzard should implement some way of verifying that everyone are indeed below the cap. Relying on addons, and their short comings, for this I can't see as an intuitive mechanic. Imagine explaining it to someone that doesn't use any addons at all, and in all honesty why should they be forced to get some addons? If you can't raid with the default UI then the defaul UI should be changed (which Blizzard are doing constantly).
There is an intuitive solution though, and that is to just use the 10-man gear. If the achievement is designed around being the achievement for serious 10-man guilds, then they are relatively justified in expecting you to be able to satisfy the ilvl requirement without addons simply because that is where you got the gear from. There are ilvl based achievements already without an inbuilt indicator - "Superior" and "Epic", and it is pretty obvious if you will be getting these even without an addon, simply because they equate to "get full heroic blues" and "get full 25-man epics". If nothing else, perhaps they should reword the 3 achievements to be something along the lines of "without equipment more powerful than that of 10-man Uldar" (etc.).
I expect common mods like DBM and BigWigs will just have an option for their Agalon modules to print out to raid or synch the result of a check of your own gear for anything above 226. Not terribly elegant from the Blizzard point of view, but probably the least intrusive option we'll end up with realistically, since a lot of people run those mods anyway.
It wouldn't be too hard to put in an ilevel check on something out of the way, such as Algalon's achievement tracker itself, to notify the player if he's eligible (and which slots aren't).
EDIT: To be clear, I agree that an ilevel check should be a visible part of the default UI if it's going to be an actual stat that the game will measure against, but I believe that if it's only going to be used for one Algalon achievement (and possibly Flame Leviathan's vehicle scaling), then it should be "hidden" from the player up to and until he actually starts caring about that one part of the game (by opening up that one achievement).
Blizzard already have a precedent of using item levels for achievements, both the Superior and Epic achievements (as well as "Needy" and "Greedy") specifically mention them, even though they aren't visible without an addon.
Just make the achievement have 2 criteria (with the first being green if your gear is okay) and call it good.
Nowadays there is complaint because one is not (or does not see himself being) capable of obtaining every achievement point in the game (remember: Achievement points are worth nothing). Everything is incredibly accessible compared to the state of the game three years ago, so I do not really get what changed peoples minds.
Three years ago we had like... 1 mln players? Now it's more like 12 and counting. Now in WoW play (and complain about achievements) people, who come last few years and nether seen people in full Tier 3 from "l33t" guilds in If/Ogri. So nothing really changed in people minds, they just don’t know how is was in the beginning, because they simple did not saw it.
Blizzard already have a precedent of using item levels for achievements, both the Superior and Epic achievements (as well as "Needy" and "Greedy") specifically mention them, even though they aren't visible without an addon.
Just make the achievement have 2 criteria (with the first being green if your gear is okay) and call it good.
Achievements doesn't work like that though, the criterias aren't like quest objectives. You usually don't have to complete all criterias at one point, you can complete them in any order you please and as soon as you have one done you can get the other, even if it conflicts with the first one. The prime example of this would be: Mercenary of Sholazar - Achievement - World of Warcraft
However, I hope and wish they will take this opportunity to improve the tracking of achievements, though I doubt they'll do it for 3.1. A simple "- In progress" or "- Failed" text hint when tracking it would have removed so much headache from doing some achievements.
Achievements doesn't work like that though, the criterias aren't like quest objectives. You usually don't have to complete all criterias at one point, you can complete them in any order you please and as soon as you have one done you can get the other, even if it conflicts with the first one. The prime example of this would be: Mercenary of Sholazar - Achievement - World of Warcraft
However, I hope and wish they will take this opportunity to improve the tracking of achievements, though I doubt they'll do it for 3.1. A simple "- In progress" or "- Failed" text hint when tracking it would have removed so much headache from doing some achievements.
It can be done, as evidenced by the upcoming Insane in the Membrane. The example you linked is because those reps are mutually exclusive, it wouldn't make sense to require them simultaneously.
It can be done, as evidenced by the upcoming Insane in the Membrane. The example you linked is because those reps are mutually exclusive, it wouldn't make sense to require them simultaneously.
Insane in the Membrane is a Feat of Strength, so it's not visible until you achieve it. As such, it doesn't turn each criteria green as you get it. I don't think there are any achievements that turn an objective green and can later turn it back grey.
04/04/09, 5:05 PM
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