3.1 Achievement changes - Page 4

SentinelBorg · 02/26/09, 4:56 PM

Originally Posted by Ultimate

I'm shocked about the change. Not that they are removing, but the fact that it was stated by blizzard that sarth+3 wasn't even meant to be done until Ulduar geared is kind of redundant now.

Yes, especially for pure 10 man guilds, this must really suck. In my opinion, they should remove the mounts, but with 3.2, not with 3.1. Ulduar gear sure will help people to do the achiviements, but there are enough, that require different things then gear.

Rhaegal · 02/26/09, 4:59 PM

Originally Posted by Renew

Sarth+3 gives 310 mounts?

They are removing the Plagued and Black Drakes... 310% flyers.

The Sarth+3 reference is because Sarth+3 is required for the Glory of the Raider achievements, not because they're getting rid of the +3 drop drake. Thus, a guild would have to have completed Sarth+3 before 3.1 to have access to the 310% mounts.

glowacks · 02/26/09, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by Ultimate

I'm shocked about the change. Not that they are removing, but the fact that it was stated by blizzard that sarth+3 wasn't even meant to be done until Ulduar geared is kind of redundant now.

"Wasn't meant" is not the same as "not expecting even the top guilds to be able to do it". It's by far the hardest content in the game right now, and the vast majority of people in the game are both not geared to do it and wouldn't have the ability to do it if they were. Sounds very much like like the Amani Warbear. The Glory of the Raider achievements are meant to be able to show that you are absolutely the very best of the game; they were "not meant" to be able for anyone to do. While 10 man guilds for the most part are unable to get all these achievements since it basically requires 25-man gear to beat 10-man Sarth+3, so what? The content will still be there, they just won't be able to ride a slightly different mount. As long as they put in 310 mounts that aren't exclusive to a small portion of the players by design (as they indicated they would, I think), it isn't a problem. Just like the Amani Warbear, those proto-drakes were meant as status symbols.

Alerian · 02/26/09, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by Grunge

Those who were missing a few candies from Be Mine!, it's time for rejoicing, I was missing 2 and was awarded "the Love Fool" on PTR.
If this is intended or not remains to be seen.

It's intended, there are blue posts about it on your given post tracker.

Gort · 02/27/09, 2:54 AM

Originally Posted by glowacks

"Wasn't meant" is not the same as "not expecting even the top guilds to be able to do it". It's by far the hardest content in the game right now, and the vast majority of people in the game are both not geared to do it and wouldn't have the ability to do it if they were. Sounds very much like like the Amani Warbear. The Glory of the Raider achievements are meant to be able to show that you are absolutely the very best of the game; they were "not meant" to be able for anyone to do. While 10 man guilds for the most part are unable to get all these achievements since it basically requires 25-man gear to beat 10-man Sarth+3, so what? The content will still be there, they just won't be able to ride a slightly different mount. As long as they put in 310 mounts that aren't exclusive to a small portion of the players by design (as they indicated they would, I think), it isn't a problem. Just like the Amani Warbear, those proto-drakes were meant as status symbols.

Honestly, I can't agree. If an achievement/reward is put in based on 10-man content, then tune it to be achievable with solely 10-man content rewards, at the current/appropriate tier. That's the entire POINT. It's no bloody good putting in a 10-man progression, 10-man achievements, titles, rewards for guilds only doing 10-mans if the only people able to get the shiny that says "I'm the best 10 man raider!" are doing 25s to gear up for it eh?

Trifle · 02/27/09, 4:10 AM

Originally Posted by glowacks

"Wasn't meant" is not the same as "not expecting even the top guilds to be able to do it". It's by far the hardest content in the game right now, and the vast majority of people in the game are both not geared to do it and wouldn't have the ability to do it if they were. Sounds very much like like the Amani Warbear.

Uh, no. ZA was meant to be roughly T5 equivalent difficulty from memory, most people that got the Amani Warbear vastly outgeared the zone. Heck, they left the bear in until well after people had cleared sunwell, which was basically 2 tiers of gear over ZA.

gia · 02/27/09, 5:13 AM

Amani Warbear was doable in Karazhan/ZA + the later badge gear and some decent raid stacking, You Don't Have An Eternity and Twilight Zone requirements are much higher than that. It is an issue that pure 10 man guilds don't really have a decent shot at this. I like the suggestion of adding an item level (213 max) check to the achievement. The Hundred Club proves a similar check can be done.

glowacks · 02/27/09, 6:01 AM

I think people are missing my main point. Forget about the Amani War Bear; consider it a completely separate incident and look at what's actually been stated.

Originally Posted by Bornakk

When 3.1 goes live, the rewards for “Glory of the Raider” and “Heroic: Glory of the Raider” are being removed. [...] For this reason we will be offering new fast mounts (310 speed) as rewards for completing select achievements associated with 10 and 25-player Ulduar.

Emphasis added. Link to the MMO-C blue tracker.

The achievements themselves aren't being removed, just the mount rewards. No 10-man content is being removed, just the ability to get a different skin on your proto-drake. There are plenty of others out there, and there will be 310 mounts available through (perhaps easier?) sources in Ulduar.

If you're going to argue that you should be able to have access to every skin of proto-drake even though you're not doing all the content, we'll agree to disagree. If you want to argue that all the content is available in 10man version, it is my opinion (and I definitely know it is purely an opinion) is that 25 man raids are fundamentally different than 10 mans to that point that doing only the latter does not mean "doing all the content". Blizzard guaranteed there would be 10-man raid progression, not that 10-man groups would have access to absolutely everything.

I will admit it is a bit disingenuous for Blizzard to state the 10-man progression will be there, offer a bunch of achievements with rewards for doing only 10-man, call the 25-man "heroic", and then take the rewards away before you have a legitimate chance. Ok, perhaps your uproar is merited. But it's only a different proto-drake skin, it's not even a unique model!

Contego · 02/27/09, 6:36 AM

Originally Posted by glowacks

.....Ok, perhaps your uproar is merited. But it's only a different proto-drake skin, it's not even a unique model!

From my own persepctive and the view of many of my guild mates, its not really the different skin on it that is the attraction. I personally couldn't care what colour it was, it could be pink with yellow spots for all I care (well maybe a bit of an exaggeration). Its the fact its 310% speed that is the attraction.

Yes we know that there are other sources for these - New Ulduar ones, the holiday events etc. However, as is so common with many things in warcraft, people want it now. They want that fast mount

Darkwind · 02/27/09, 6:54 AM

I just think there wasn't enough time to get either of those mounts. You would have had to be in a raiding guild that stepped right into Naxx when it opened to have had any kind of shot at getting them, and even then, some of those achievements are quite difficult (And, let's face it, a little unfair with the undermanning achievements. It may make the content harder, but leaving two to five people out is a stupid way of doing it). I mean, it's only been three months since WotLK shipped.

With the Amani War Bear, you had nearly a year to get it. With the Ulduar mounts, we now know they'll likely be taken out when 3.2's raid comes out, so we know we need to push hard ahead of time. Plus, I'd wager there's a lot more people that will be ready to step into Ulduar then were ready to step into Naxx right from the get-go.

Personally, I'd rather see them use the item level restriction than completely remove them. Until we see a level cap increase, of course.

Bullshot · 02/27/09, 6:59 AM

Originally Posted by Darkwind

With the Ulduar mounts, we now know they'll likely be taken out when 3.2's raid comes out, so we know we need to push hard ahead of time. Plus, I'd wager there's a lot more people that will be ready to step into Ulduar then were ready to step into Naxx right from the get-go.

Personally, I welcome this. Should get rid of the "let's do the achievement next week while we collect easy-mode loot this week" mentality which prevails every week. It'll let the guild itself decide when they're ready to tackle the hard-modes and make them push themselves harder.

I also view these proto-drakes as the PvE-equivalent of the Gladiator mounts. Black and Plagued may be removed, but Ironbound and Rusted are being added. New "season," new mounts.

Cirocco · 02/27/09, 9:37 AM

I think the one thing that everyone can agree on is that there should be no further achievements that require you to ask your friends and fellow raid members to have to sit out. i'd hope that the legitmate concerns about this have been noted and that there aren't any further examples of this less than x number in the raid achievement, or if there are that they are quitely taken out before they're even seen.

Buka · 02/27/09, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by Darkwind

And, let's face it, a little unfair with the undermanning achievements. It may make the content harder, but leaving two to five people out is a stupid way of doing it.

I really do not understand why is so big issue for many. You can do "under manning" achievements twice with different people sitting out. And it's true for every other raiding achievement too -- almost no one have strictly 10 or 25 people in their raiding core…

rbbrdckybk · 02/27/09, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by glowacks

But it's only a different proto-drake skin, it's not even a unique model!

... that flies at 310% speed.

I'm in a small (10-man) guild that did the ZA bear run in a group where all 10 members were only wearing KZ/ZA gear. It was a legitimate challenge for us, but it was doable. We are not superstar players by any stretch, but with practice we were able to work toward the reward and eventually win - wearing nothing but gear you obtain in ZA and the zones that came before it.

Sarth+3D (10-man) is simply not realistically doable in 10-man gear. It doesn't make sense to me to have achievements that can only be completed once you outgear the zone, especially if the rewards are going to be removed before the intended audience (10-man guilds) will have access to a zone where they can even obtain gear to make it possible.

Cosa · 02/27/09, 10:44 AM

I didn't want to just quote words regarding rewarding undermanned content. While doing Naxx, EoE and OS with less than maximum number of participants shall be noted and rewarded with single achievement - those achievements shall not count toward Meta achievements.

I am guild master of community/non hardcore raiding guild on Xavius and we basically rebuilt our community from characters not actively played endgame content in TBC. We got our raiding force to the level where we farm Nax25, EoE and Sartharion +2D, working hard on 3D and Malygos under 6minutes, in all this efforts we can do, but cannot afford undermanning instances both because not everyone accomplished their gearing goals - but because you cannot tell your friends "Excuse us but we want meta achievement, thanks for everything you have done with us but only this 20 out of 25 will get drake first".

I am pretty sure Blizzard is reading this lines and that is why I am posting this here. Maybe it is too late, maybe it is overlooked at the start, but excluding undermanned achievements from meta ones will help a lot in future content.