Naxx is also exceptionally puggable with alt groups doing full clears without much problem, it might be worthwhile to do a 12/13 split of the main raid and filling up with reliable pugs or well geared alts to do the 20man achieve in one week rather than two. Preferably on seperate days so that alts from the first group can run with the second group.
It also means that you may not be able to complete any other achievements during the undermanned run. Not such an issue with existing content, but if the hard modes in Ulduar are tightly tuned, running 5 players short certainly isn't going to help.
What about the fact that well-designed content shouldn't be physically possible with only 80% of the players present, period?
The content we are noted for most admiring in WoW (Naxx 1.0, Sunwell) didn't have margin for significant error, much less for this kind of thing. It might be appropriate for expansion entry-level content, but it had best go the way of the dinosaurs as we move into more complex raid encounters.
That the content can be performed with fewer than intended isn't really an arguement against. These achievements are supposed to be hard-mode, after all. There are differences in how encounters scale, of course. Patchwerk just requires overgearing, whereas more complex encounters require different setups and splitting attention. These are different and not entirely comparable challenges for an undermanning group.
Considering the stupidity and masochism involved (on the group level, if not the individual), undermanning seems better fitted to a Feat of Strength than an achievement to me. The criteria for FoS vs achievement aren't very well-structured, but some variation of "stupid" seems to be an acceptable qualification. I would propose that purposefully going into an instance two men down sounds at least the same ballpark as going from aldor to scryers.
Well it's fine to have it as an achievement for those who want to do it, but including it in the 'of the raider' meta isn't needed. I mean, I don't think that undermanning sarth is currently part of the glory of the raider achievement, so I'm not sure why they decided to put the undermanning naxx one up.
This is my only real gripe with the stupid achievement. We have to waste the next 3 naxx clears getting everyone dedicated few then hope we get Immortal 1-3 times before patch. Hell yeah.
The Dedicated Few and The Immortal are not mutually exclusive.
This is my only real gripe with the stupid achievement. We have to waste the next 3 naxx clears getting everyone dedicated few then hope we get Immortal 1-3 times before patch. Hell yeah.
I don't know if you're expecting people to agree with you or feel sympathetic, but i'd just call this poor planning - for a guild that seriously wants to get the achievement done.
The week we got our Immortal we just scheduled 2 20 man runs for the next week. Our raiding roster was pretty small at the time (~32 members) so we had to rely on alts to get the job done but we got everyone their 20 man achievement in one go. It's a hassle, but not as big as everyone makes it out to be, IMO.
To get The Dedicated Few and provide all 25 raiders with something to do, make 5 people sit for each wing. Next week, rotate that again and everyone gets the achievement. Everyone misses out on roughly the same number of badges and loot.
If you still need Immortal, then keep everyone in for Kel.
I don't know if you're expecting people to agree with you or feel sympathetic, but i'd just call this poor planning - for a guild that seriously wants to get the achievement done.
It just went against precedent is all, and I'm barely on my twilight drake as it is anyway.
Since we can expect the Ulduar drakes to vanish at 3.2 we can actually plan for that. Not a big deal in the end, would have been great to be able to expect it.
To get The Dedicated Few and provide all 25 raiders with something to do, make 5 people sit for each wing. Next week, rotate that again and everyone gets the achievement. Everyone misses out on roughly the same number of badges and loot.
If you still need Immortal, then keep everyone in for Kel.
I don't see the advantage to this unless you want to keep everyone in front of their keyboard over the span of 4-5 weeks. I think it's much better to either do the 2x 20 group and finish it in one reset, or do it over the course of 2 weeks. It's much better to let members know they're sitting so they can go do whatever for at least a reasonable amount of time while making themselves available, than to sit around your desktop waiting for a wing to be finished, imo.
It seems like most of the complaints about the undermanning achievements have to do with basic guild logistics. I think it's pretty safe to say the vast majority of guilds don't have a roster of exactly 25 players who show up to every single raid. Sitting people out from week to week is a reality of raiding guilds, large and small. Having to rotate a few more people out for a couple weeks hardly seems unreasonable.
In fact, it seems like the people who do think it's unreasonable are more upset that they haven't been working on the achievements yet. My question is, unless you just started Naxx, what have you been doing? After Kel'Thuzad, Malygos, Sarth 3D are dead, achievements are the only content. Gear is really not an obstacle to most of the achievements (and unlike some are saying, 13 ilvls are not the difference between success and failure for Nightfall). Looking back at my achievements log, we ran Naxx 3 times before beginning to work on Naxx achievements in earnest each week. The undermanning ones simply took setting aside one week to do them all.
It kind of sucks that we didn't know the time to complete it would be eventually limited, but there has been quite a bit of time for a lot of guilds already. I see a lot of Twilight Vanquisher titles floating around; there's no reason not to have been doing other achievements too. I'd be pretty bored if we hadn't been working on them, to be honest-- some of the achievements feel enough like attempting a new encounter to keep it interesting.
I doubt many would claim that the undermanning achievements or the thereby required logistics are particularly hard to set up or complete, though for some more casual guilds they can be a bit more of a pain since it might need to be stretched over a longer period where there's other achievements you won't be able to do because of it.
Personally I just find having to have people sit out, so you can clear the stuff with less than a full raid, to be "bad taste" for lack of a better explanation. Those achievements aren't particularly interesting or inspired either. They are fine as "non-required" achievements to me, if guilds wants to just try it and have fun with it, but shouldn't be included in the meta-achievement. I'd rather have achievements that were actually put some thought into for that.
I want to toss my 2 cents in. I play with a middle of the road guild, we cleared naxx25 the end of Novemeber in ~2 nights, but we aren't exactly a top 100 or even 200 guild in the US.
The under manning achievements are a hassle sure, but at least they aren't something that take a lot of effort and if you wipe because you aren't quite good enough then you just try again.
I strongly dislike these "Once per week" achievements, as they are far too vulnerable to RNG luck.
3 drake sarth, if you screw up you wipe and go again.
6 min Malygos, if you are behind your timer marks you wipe and go again (and pray you don't accidentally kill him with the flame dots).
Have a random disconnect in Naxx? Wave goodbye to immortal for another week.
We've been trying for immortal for 5 weeks now with no luck, and i don't see us ever getting it. We've done every single fight in there flawlessly at least once, maybe even 12+ times for some of them, but we can't string them together for a win, we are just unlucky or occasionally not good enough. For example, last week one of our MC priests DC'ed @ 10% on Rav and we lost a mage while the other priest renewed MC. What are you supposed to do then? It wouldn't be so bad if you could just wipe it up and try again, but nope, you fail, better luck next WEEK. Another failure was on Gluth, we had a Mage get hit for a Decimate that hit him for 10% more health then he had. Sure, 1 or 2 of our failures were stupidity on Thaddius and/or KT but really, do we need to wait a complete WEEK to try them again? Especially now that we have a timer hanging over our heads for these achievements in the future.
Achievements need to be something to work at, something that takes effort and time. Not something that can randomly screw you over and lock you out of for a week. I thought they stopped these once per night/week things when they removed the despawn timer on Vael in BWL?
When you complete an "achievement" you should be saying "Yeah, we are awesome" not "PHEW, no one screwed up".
I think most people agree that some achievements are ridiculous.
The dedicated few, gonna go when the volcano blows and even denying the scion are all achievable by any guild that has content on farm but it's retarded to sit out 5 players, kill sartharion with 10 players and wipe on malygos on purpose so healers and ranged dps can get a killing blow.
I really hope they don't make another achievement like the immortal, while the idea is good it's annoying to get screwed over by RNG, lag or bugs. The first 2 months the immortal was not even possible on my server because of lag and even now a 5/10 second lagspike on any boss can still ruin a lockout. A very tight timed run like would have been a way better achievement to seperate good guilds from lesser guilds.
We've been trying for immortal for 5 weeks now with no luck, and i don't see us ever getting it. We've done every single fight in there flawlessly at least once, maybe even 12+ times for some of them, but we can't string them together for a win, we are just unlucky or occasionally not good enough. For example, last week one of our MC priests DC'ed @ 10% on Rav and we lost a mage while the other priest renewed MC. What are you supposed to do then? It wouldn't be so bad if you could just wipe it up and try again, but nope, you fail, better luck next WEEK. Another failure was on Gluth, we had a Mage get hit for a Decimate that hit him for 10% more health then he had. Sure, 1 or 2 of our failures were stupidity on Thaddius and/or KT but really, do we need to wait a complete WEEK to try them again? Especially now that we have a timer hanging over our heads for these achievements in the future.
Every situation that a DC causes on an Immortal try is saveable. Razuvious is one of the trickier ones sure, but you can just go with 3 Mind Controllers next time? Then if one DC's nothing is lost.
Your Gluth fail is because a Commanding Shout or Blood Pact faded. Don't use those buffs on Gluth.
On our first Immortal we had a disconnect on Heigan, Sapphiron & Grobbulus (in the cloud) and we just healed through it. It is possible. I suggest you read the StratFu page on Fusion's website on how to greatly increase your chances on a succesful Immortal.
And yes the lag didn't help, so we had to reschedule our first Immortal to a Saturday evening. Our second one (which was this week actually) was on Wednesday though, after maintenance.
Every situation that a DC causes on an Immortal try is saveable.
Disconnecting in a void zone on Kel'Thuzad sort of jumps to mind.
Over the last four weeks or so, I've been doing an Undying attempt every week. Every single one, there's one death for the whole run. It's starting to feel pointless. I don't really want to end up stressing about whether or not somebody might end up disconnecting in a void zone, or might end up realizing an ice block isn't actually giving him LoS and dying before he makes it to the other one, or...
What's really grinding at me is that I can't do it again. I don't care if we had to do the whole instance over again, at least give me some way to make up my mistakes other than wasting another week where we can't work on any other achievements that anybody else wants because it's the only one most of the group has left in Naxx. And, surprise surprise, the six minute Malygos is the other one we're waiting on - and might never do, because I'm not sure I ever want to start wiping Malygos attempts because it took 5:00 to get to p3 instead of 4:30.
Disconnecting in a void zone on Kel'Thuzad sort of jumps to mind.
Over the last four weeks or so, I've been doing an Undying attempt every week. Every single one, there's one death for the whole run. It's starting to feel pointless. I don't really want to end up stressing about whether or not somebody might end up disconnecting in a void zone, or might end up realizing an ice block isn't actually giving him LoS and dying before he makes it to the other one, or...
What's really grinding at me is that I can't do it again. I don't care if we had to do the whole instance over again, at least give me some way to make up my mistakes other than wasting another week where we can't work on any other achievements that anybody else wants because it's the only one most of the group has left in Naxx. And, surprise surprise, the six minute Malygos is the other one we're waiting on - and might never do, because I'm not sure I ever want to start wiping Malygos attempts because it took 5:00 to get to p3 instead of 4:30.
KT void zone: your priests should be saving GS exactly for occasions like this. On our second Immortal (2 in 3 weeks actually), we had a disconnect on sapphiron and GS saved the reset.
Not realising you're not in LoS for a cube, using commanding shout/blood pact on gluth, etc is exactly what Immortal is about. Complaining about not getting Undying because people are too stupid to stand behind a stupid ice cube isn't going to get you much sympathy.
If you don't want to call a wipe when you see you're not going to make the 6 minutes on Malygos, you're just not dedicated enough and shouldn't get the achievement. It's by far the easiest achievement in the 'harder' category.
Actually, not willing to wipe on Malygos for the achievement kind of contradicts your statement that you're prepared to do a full Naxx clear all over again (loosing all loot/not getting loot) for Immortal, since you're not even prepared to do it for 1 boss.
If you don't want to call a wipe when you see you're not going to make the 6 minutes on Malygos, you're just not dedicated enough and shouldn't get the achievement. It's by far the easiest achievement in the 'harder' category.
Actually, not willing to wipe on Malygos for the achievement kind of contradicts your statement that you're prepared to do a full Naxx clear all over again (loosing all loot/not getting loot) for Immortal, since you're not even prepared to do it for 1 boss.
The main problem with 6-minute Maly is that the margin of error requires either going for a 5:30 kill OR risking a 6:01 kill.
The general problem with all of these achievements is that its mostly guild logistics. The only incentive for them is the meaningless Achievement points or the mount. Convincing people to do things an annoying way is annoying - especially since some of the achievements involve doing things the wrong way, wiping constantly until your group gets it right, or playing conservatively to the point of boredom.
Which reminds me, I'm not saved to Sarth25 this week. I need to find a PUG and "accidentally" die early on in the encounter. And then fail to get combat rezes. This stuff is supposed to be fun, right?
Actually, not willing to wipe on Malygos for the achievement kind of contradicts your statement that you're prepared to do a full Naxx clear all over again (loosing all loot/not getting loot) for Immortal, since you're not even prepared to do it for 1 boss.
I'm willing to wipe when I know I've failed. I'm less enthusiastic about throwing away boss attempts because, as was just said, I need to aim for a 5:30 kill to make sure we don't accidentally kill him and waste the attempt. There's also a slight difference between saying "Okay, we'll go again" and saying "Okay, kill yourselves."
Incidentally, not everybody happens to have a Holy Priest on standby for every raid they do. Nor is it usually readily apparent that the disconnected person about to die in a void zone is disconnected.
No plans to remove this achievement. If you want to get it you can not do 3drake Sartharion for a week and get it for a bunch of people. If you feel the loot is more important, focus on that instead. Prioritize.
We will see what achievements we decide to make for Ulduar, but honestly I would not be surprised if an immortal-style achievement was one of them. There can be some frustrating scenarios that cause this to fail like disconnects, but unless it is a mass disconnect it can be worked around a lot of the time. Overall, in my experience, it is almost always a player's fault for failing on Undying/Immortal by getting a little careless and not remaining focused on the achievement goal.
Please make it by boss then, not for the whole instance in one clear. Expecting no RNG disconnects or lag for 14 bosses seems a little much.
These meta achievements aren't meant to be easy. Making it by boss would make it much much easier.
Also, please no under-manning on the meta. It's not hard, just annoying and makes you sit out raid members for no good reason.
If getting the achievement is "no good reason" - why are you doing it?
I really hope they rethink this, because I don't want to decide between an Immortal-style achievement vs additional loot from bosses. Even if it's just a title and not part of the meta-achievement.
I really hope they rethink this, because I don't want to decide between an Immortal-style achievement vs additional loot from bosses. Even if it's just a title and not part of the meta-achievement.
But that's the whole point of raid achievements. Most achievements aren't "Here, you beat this instance, now have some more rewards for doing the same thing you do every week." Achievements are meant to be a choice to work on something new-ish, so you're not just doing the same clears every week.
I'm willing to wipe when I know I've failed. I'm less enthusiastic about throwing away boss attempts because, as was just said, I need to aim for a 5:30 kill to make sure we don't accidentally kill him and waste the attempt. There's also a slight difference between saying "Okay, we'll go again" and saying "Okay, kill yourselves."
Incidentally, not everybody happens to have a Holy Priest on standby for every raid they do. Nor is it usually readily apparent that the disconnected person about to die in a void zone is disconnected.
That's a guild problem, not the game's. Reroll, respec, or bring an alt. You might get unlucky once, or twice, but not 10+ weeks in a row.
As has been pointed out, a failure on Razuvious is 100% avoidable if you reset the zone.
It's all well and good that there are workarounds for disconnects and lag problems when trying for Immortal. The point is that when the only thing that's hard about it is not disconnecting, or hoping the person who does disconnect is able to be saved by the holy priest with Guardian Spirit, then that's not fun or challenging, just stupid.
For example, about a month ago we had an undying run going until Kel'Thuzad. At about 15%, our main tank's power went out. We didn't realize it had happened until about 5% when he finally went offline and the Guardians and KT ran over and one shot the healers. We executed the fight properly, and due to things that we couldn't prevent, lost the achievement for the week. Is this supposed to determine who the 'elite' are?
It seems like most of the complaints about the undermanning achievements have to do with basic guild logistics. I think it's pretty safe to say the vast majority of guilds don't have a roster of exactly 25 players who show up to every single raid. Sitting people out from week to week is a reality of raiding guilds, large and small. Having to rotate a few more people out for a couple weeks hardly seems unreasonable.
Yes it is a reality for most guilds to have to sit people each week. But that doesn't mean that it is a fun reality that people enjoy and that Blizzard should make achievements that encourage more players to have to sit than they already have to. Naxx is puggable so it is not terrible to have people sit. But we don't know the actual difficulty of Ulduar on live. Thus, it might not be easily puggable and thus you lock people out of the opportunity to do the only interesting thing in PVE.
Granted, people will only start doing the under-manning achievements after they are adequately geared, so the loot rot and gearing problem is not as big of a deal. But outside of raiding there is nothing interesting to do in PVE (yes there are the dungeon achievements, but if we are talking about a guild going for Ulduar under-manning achievements it is likely they have already done the dungeon ones). So you have to go do a pug of a difficult instance and bash your head against a wall or do nothing that week. That is poor design, and a lack of creativity in creating interesting and challenging achievements.
02/28/09, 7:29 PM
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