The best way I can figure out to treat loot coming into a system like ours is to charge them for the highest piece in each slot, then setting their earned to the same amount as spent. They start out with 0 JP, and have the same upgrade path as someone who looted the stuff in guild.
Originally Posted by nerox,January 19th, 2006 @ 10:41AM
The best way I can figure out to treat loot coming into a system like ours is to charge them for the highest piece in each slot, then setting their earned to the same amount as spent. They start out with 0 JP, and have the same upgrade path as someone who looted the stuff in guild.
Basically, yeah. For someone coming in with just a couple of epics it's no big deal, but your DKP system can't realistically expect someone joining the guild after 1+ years of raiding to be treated the same way as you'd treat a brand new 60 in all blues. As noted, the upgrade system would mean that they'd get one piece of loot and then never get a single non-defaulted item again, without some special accommodation.
If you're going to modify zero-sum by adding an upgrade system, you need to make allowances for how to handle people with gear from outside the system.
1) How are Onyxia and other JP/DKP Encounters as the World Dragons integrated in your new cap system ?
2) As far as I know you are using the WoW-modded EQDKP Website to enter and store your DKP data. Suppose you had an MC raid with several players over the MC cap. I would assume that you add those players as usual to the participant list (otherwise your attendance scores will get screwed) and only leave them out for the calculation of the total raid JP/DKP.
But do you have any method to indicate that player X should not be in the calculation on the viewraid.php website ? If not it could get a bit complicated if you had to recheck each and every player of the raid when changing some item values or stuff like that later on. Also, how do you intent to 'deny' them the points they'd automatically get when being in the raid ? By going the Individual Adjustment route, which can become quite a hassle ?
Originally Posted by dkp_newbie,January 19th, 2006 @ 11:32AM
1) How are Onyxia and other JP/DKP Encounters as the World Dragons integrated in your new cap system ?
Outdoor bosses give JP. Onyxia does not. (The latter gets killed by small, random, pick-up groups formed within the guild.)
Originally Posted by Lyta
I've been trying to concentrate on studying for my Proof Methods test tomorrow, and all I can think of is your hotness, radiating out from the pixels on my monitor, seared straight into my neurons.
When entering an MC raid or whatever, I just exclude the people who are over the cap from the database. So if you look at our MC raid from last week it'll look like we 18-manned MC. Adjustments would be far too onerous. Attendance-tracking really isn't a huge deal for us. JP kind of speak for themselves. If you have a lot, you have high attendance, and vice-versa. Everyone knows who the most reliable raiders are and who is more casual.
Originally Posted by Damien,January 19th, 2006 @ 3:42PM
Do you have any protection spec warriors that have no use or want of DPS plate and 2-handers?
Would you force an OEB on someone who only tanks (assuming he's the only warrior without an epic 2-hander), or just shard it?
Forced.
Warriors are expected to use 2 handers or dual weild in many situations, even if they're protection specced. Nobody is ever a tank 100% of the time and when not tanking, you're expected to be dps.
There are also things like Broodlord where after you're knocked away, you should use a 2 hander to help rebuild threat.
I don't believe we currently force any two handers on shamans though.
We do, for pretty much the same reason we force them on warriors. Shaman don't need to heal that much on every fight (Ebonroc, Flamegor) so having a 2h is helpful. Of course the Herald of Woe is the only Shaman Priority 2h I think and it never drops so we never get forced it :/. Oh and half our Shaman are Elemental spec so we can't even use 90% of the weapon drops anyway.
Women's breasts can be modeled as a cone and measured as V = (Db^2*h*.785)/3 and since breasts can be thought of as an amorphous fluid, you just have to worry about containing the volume of the breast.
We'd never seen one drop until this past month, so that kind of skews things a bit. It's a decent rogue sword for the time being, but with CTS and the Qiraji Ripper and such out there, its longevity is fairly limited.
We've had two drop. One went to a fury warrior, and the second went to our MT who has a Thunderfury -- it makes a great dual-wield behind TF when needed, but it's also a very solid backup tanking weapon against things that are highly resistant or immune to nature.
It's an odd item. I'd probably just say warrior/rogue copriority, but when it dropped there wasn't really an outpouring of interest for it so it wasn't too big a deal.
Thanks. I actually hoped that you somehow decided for either rogues or warriors priority, but i guess its to odd item for that.
Originally Posted by zeidrich
Women's breasts can be modeled as a cone and measured as V = (Db^2*h*.785)/3 and since breasts can be thought of as an amorphous fluid, you just have to worry about containing the volume of the breast.
Originally Posted by Praetorian,January 30th, 2006 @ 9:18AM
One went to a fury warrior, and the second went to our MT who has a Thunderfury -- it makes a great dual-wield behind TF when needed, but it's also a very solid backup tanking weapon against things that are highly resistant or immune to nature.
I will cut you if you call me that again. It went to me, not Toros >:(
Also, it's bullshit to say things like people should get forced two handers because "you're not always tanking". Unless a prot warrior has two excellent one-handers that even out the damage dealt / rage generated, you will still need a two hander for some encounters in BWL and moving forward in the game.
Just look at Dios on Nef last night, the last living warrior in pure tank plate. Did he recover his threat lead over the course of the fight? Yeah. Did he do it via Ash fucking kandi? Hell yea. Two handers are part of your arsenal. If you're willing to push away a very important tool just because you want more points to spend on armor, maybe you should reconsider your dedication to tanking.
(Taeme is, of course, imagining a hypothetical scenario in some other guild's tank were to die, and plugging in the names of our warriors just to personalize the tale. Because everyone knows that EJ never makes mistakes.)
But my point still stands : Unless you have the gear to make up for it, a two hander often grants you access to capabilities you otherwise don't have for some engagements. Spurning something because you see it as an option that exists for only one style of your class is stupid.
And anyone who passes on a two-hander without having a good one is stupid. Or points hoarding, which is fine by me!
Presumably you've come to a conclusion about how to handle the cross-class drops required to get the sets and other gubbins. I remember you talking about the issue of some classes having spent more than others overall, I guess due to the nature of their itemisation (warriors and rogues having to spend a lot more on weapons/shields for instance). So did you come up with anything clever to counter that, or did you decide it wasn't a big enough issue to bother with and are just doing it on straight JP?
From a personal point of view this issue is likely to become pretty problematic, not from class disadvantages so much as individual ones. People who were already geared in some Tier 2 have huge and probably insurmountable leads over our influx of new recruits, many of whom still have plenty of Tier 1 to loot, and placing EJ-style caps isn't practical (got no real record of lifetime-earned DKP). I won't go too much into that because it isn't really directly about your loot system.
In our situation for Tier 1/2 and other class-specific items the points totals will be pretty much irrelevant as classes will just sort bidders amongst themselves anyway in cyclical fashion so that the guy with +1000 won't end up in 8/8 Netherwind while the newer guy with -1000 has 0/8. They're good like that. I'm just concerned that if we try and do the A'Q drops based on straight DKP it *will* become a thorny issue, because how do you prioritise? It could become a logisitical and managerial nightmare.
Thoughts?
EDIT: God I've been on these boards too often - I just put a 'z' in 'itemisation'. :V:
Well, looking at our classes on the whole, and trying to see why some had tons of JP and others had not so much, we came to two conclusions:
1) Warriors need two weapons, a shield, AND a ranged weapon. Rogues only need two weapons and a ranged. Shamans need two weapons and a shield, but no ranged. Mages get a weapon, an offhand, and a wand. Etc. Everyone needed 3 things in their hands, but warriors needed 4.
2) Warriors and rogues spent far more on resist gear (warriors especially) than did ranged and cloth classes. Whereas a typical mage might have Flarecore Mantle/Gloves as their only JP-costing resist gear, a tank likely has 3-4 dark iron pieces, as well as another 3-4 pieces of NR gear from the green dragons, etc.
Our solution to #1 was simply to reduce the price of the warrior class set to make up for this different. All other class t2 sets sum to 1100 JP in our system; warriors' set now sums to 1000.
#2 is trickier, and we tied it into our cap system. Basically, your JP cap on all zones goes up by the amount of resist gear you have. So if you have 150 JP worth of resist gear, you're capped at 1650 for MC and 2650 for BWL, instead of 1500 and 2500. This means that getting resist gear still affects your place in the rotation in the short-term, but in the long-term, has no effect, so people aren't punished for getting useful resist gear.
As for some stratification, honestly, that's unavoidable to some extent. Zero-sum doesn't promise perfect equality. It just promises fairness. If someone is at -1000, they've earned their loot drastically faster than their predecessors did. It took me 6 months of raiding MC before I finally got all the earthfury pieces I needed. These days I've seen people go from zero epics to full tier 1 in 2-3 weeks. That difference is why when something drops from a higher-end zone, I will get it, and he won't. The system owes me loot because of the time I've put in raiding relative to the loot I've received thus far. On the other hand, for the guy at -1000, he has a debt to the system, which has provided him with loot at a disproportionate rate.
People need to understand that they aren't at -1000 because they're "the new guy." They're at -1000 because they got half a year's worth of raid epics in a matter of weeks. They'll catch up in the long run, as the people above them continue to take loot and drop down, while they steadily climb back towards zero.
Yeah. Our only problem is that we haven't always used EQDKP so we don't have a proper record of people's lifetime-earned DKP in order to implement caps. We need to try and find a way to allow new people to be close enough to be able to compete on loot for future zones that they help learn. We're just having problems finding a way around that.
Anyway that's not really about the loot system per se, I'm just throwing it out there in case anyone has had similar problems (unlikely I know seeing as I can't believe anyone else was draconian enough to do manual DKP updates for 6 months). :angry:
I'm not sure you can help us here, but you have bigger brains than me. Also, other types maybe able to have a rummage and help a brother out. We shall see.
Onwards.
I am (sadly) norg's guild buddy (enemy) and so we get lumbered with trying to make all this stuff work and oh it's so hard and woe is me and so on. As he's explained, we're trying to retroactively introduce a points cap for MC to prevent our longest standing members from using their frankly insane points leads to be able to loot whatever they damn well please until the end of time itself. We moved to a system desperately close to the EJ system about 2 months ago, thankfully just before we started making progress in BWL. So we have a record of exactly who, what, where and when in BWL, but the only records we have from before that are in the bags of our members, in terms of what they have looted.
I've come up with a kind of way of backdating our points system to work out where people would be now if we'd
a) always had Zero Sum DKP
and
B) had a points cap on MC earnings
...but it doesn't work. I figured it would look like this:-
Points spent in MC (i.e. the value of all MC loots added together) + Current point total - Points spent in BWL/Onyxia - Points earned in BWL/Onyxia = DKP earned in MC
Now this will clearly also include points earned at Onyxia from before we had records, but that's just tough shit frankly. We'll work out a way around that. What is confusing me is that when I try this formulae on myself I get a really tiny number, about what I'd expect to earn from say three MC clears. I've been on, I dunno, a lot more than three clears.
Can anyone clever point out why the system I'm trying to implement here is so terribly wrong? Or better still, explain how/if it's possible to reach our aims, i.e. a fair MC points cap being introduced into a system at a point where many members have probably exceeded it.
I'm not quite sure. I suspect some kind of tumour. You're quite right though. Hmm, that does seem to help.
One other suggestion mooted is that since we know all the data for BWL, we could simply have seperate points for the two zones. Now this does at first glance seem a good idea (although it does kind of force us to have seperate points for every major raid instance from here on in) but you've seen my maths and it sucks, so I'm probably missing something obvious.
01/19/06, 11:41 AM
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