I've been reading some theories suggesting that the physical size and capacity for social complexity of the human brain ends up generating a limitation of about 150 people in a non-hierarchical social group. Any larger than that number, and things begin to splinter off into factions or specialization, or it just feels too large to really 'know' everyone and things fall apart. I know Elitist Jerks maintains a much larger guild than most 'hardcore' raiding groups, and that it's somewhere close to this magic number of 150. Is this the rare exception or might a guild around this number be more viable than, say, a tighter guild of 45-60 or a huge cooperative of 200-300? Wondering if anyone had any thoughts on guild size and what seems to be the most 'comfortable' fit. Do you think there's some tension between the 40man raid group limitation in WoW and the size of a comfortable, fulfilling social circle? Or are any other factors you think this might depend on?
Any guild is only limited to the amount of bullshit in gchat, so I crap a lot in chat to remind everyone that the next person they invite could be as bad as me.
Realistically, the only real destroyer of guilds is drama which I really haven't seen in EJ apart from a few individual incidents whereas the cause just tend to go off and do their own thing. Any large guild will do fine as long as the players, especially the 'leaders' keep the right attitude. None of the leaders in EJ has ever had any tone of superiority because we're all just the same players of the same game. Instead the leaders are respected and appreciated for taking care of all the work that most people just don't want to deal with, as it should be.
Edit: on topic:
The problem with having a lot of people is that the more people you put in together the more likely some will clash, therefore you're not really limited to the number of people in a guild, just the type of people, it's all about the attitude.
Also, the goal of the guild is a factor. As EJ has said a few times way-back-when "We're not a raiding guild, we're a social guild.... that raids" so we've got a large pool of players from that which can choose to do as they please, no one demands anything of the other. A strictly raiding guild may not want so many people because it would take longer to gear them up, much like we've been doing MC since who the hell knows when and still are to gear people (mostly alts it seems) up. But then we've had many advantages from being a large guild in that we'll have a great selection of people for outdoor boss encounters and, just recently, mass farming in silithus. It's hard to say how large a guild you want without having a goal.
One way to stay small and "comfortable" but still be able to raid is to allow an alliance with another guild you seem to work well with. There's many many many guild alliances out there and most seem to work for awhile till either one guild gets too big for the alliance or one guild absorbs the other (or key players from the other). But anyhow, being in an alliance means less drama in-house. And any drama that does happen with the other guild(s) can usually be easily settled cause it's not something you have to put up with every time you log on.
This is also nice for different type of guilds. Say guild A is a PvP guild and guild B is a Raid guild, having the alliance opens doors for members of each guild to do the different things that they might not have been able to do otherwise.
Is there a gaming guild that is not a hierarchy(atleast when you talk about larger guilds)? Typically if one was not created at it's inception there is usually an established hierarchy over time even if it is informal. You have your leaders and you have your followers. Some leaders follow the other leaders lead and there you have a hierarchy. Without good leadership though I think any group would fall apart due to chaos.
I can definately see how groups of that size(150+) falling apart if they dont have some form of established hierarchy. People need someone to answer to or they will eventually take advantage of a situation. Atleast that is my opinion.
I think a key social factor to EJ's coherent nature is that we all came from the same area of the internet, Somethingawful.com. That's not to say that we all identify with each other as goons, but the fact that most of us spent $10 to gain access to a particular type of forum initially weeded out most types of would-be trash.
Considering this, I'd say that EJ is almost like a ready-made guild, or at least one where the majority already have common interests; mostly in the region of humor: continual and unrelenting sardonic humor.
Most of the crazies in EJ have helped themselves out of it, its like the inevitability of some people's nature, they just aren't happy unless they're rocking the boat.
crappy troll knocked out the DSL now it takes 2 minutes to get to tits
I think the 150 number is pretty valid, although I think up to 200 works as well. That is pretty much the exact reason we don't recruit - despite our fairly large size there is a lot of camaraderie (Hi Scorp).
Hamlet, in this case I'd say you are mostly incorrect. We have very, very little hierarchy. Gurgthock leads raids. Beef is the majority shareholder in regards to executive decisions, but the officers decide things democratically yet invisibly. As a normal guild member, I see nothing of this except the occasional important announcement stickied in the forums, or the even more occasional asshat being removed from the guild.
I would say that the only real hierarchy we have is that of raiding - ie JP, but even then it's only used to determine preference for 'vet-heavy' groups and for light-hearted good-natured overly-hyphenated ball-busting
edit: going more in depth, the officers discuss issues a lot in the officer channel and most of us like each other so we're not always clashing. But we have different attitudes and personalities so sometimes we do argue and that's a good thing. You don't always want officers agreeing with each other.
We use the officers forum very sparsely but it's still used for more important matters that need to be discussed at length.
The best type of leadership is the type that you rarely notice but keeps an organization running smoothly. When you really start noticing the leadership it typically is cause it is either overbearing or makes alot of mistakes. When you dont notice it but everyone is living in relative harmony then you know you probably have a good system going. That requires alot of trust which the leadership does need to work hard to garner. I take my hat off to all of the leadership in EJ it seems you have a symbiotic relationship with all the rest of EJ and not too many dissenters which is pretty impressive in a group as large as yours.
Originally Posted by Witchdoctor,January 16th, 2006 @ 8:03AM
One way to stay small and "comfortable" but still be able to raid is to allow an alliance with another guild you seem to work well with.
Maybe it's me but I can't stand "alliances" between guilds. To me, it's nothing more than an opportunity to use /random after a boss kill and/or fester relations when a decision needs to be made regarding who's more deserving of a spot in a group. If you want a bigger raid group, get more people in your guild. Large numbers don't get out of hand if you're liberal with the banhammer in the beginning.
Going back to how our guild initially came to be, our base was around 80 people, give or take, who all played closed beta together. Yeah, maybe there were a few who were in open beta, but that's immaterial. Over time, we continued to grow, typically pulling players from GS (DRAMA!) with the caveat that we were serious about kicking the game in the ass, and that we were going to be intolerant of the general shenanigans that Goon Squad was famous for. If you wanted to dick around and be a clown in chat, then stay away from Hooligan; otherwise, friends, family, and e-friends were generally welcome. From there, we easily maintained our original philosophy - hop on the raid train and get fabulous prizes or don't. For as long as you don't screw a guildmate over or make us look bad in public, you have a home in HS (EJ). Due to this mentality, the management of our larger-than-most guild has been and always should be smooth and uneventful.
Originally Posted by Chupa,January 16th, 2006 @ 8:56AM
Hamlet, in this case I'd say you are mostly incorrect. We have very, very little hierarchy. Gurgthock leads raids. Beef is the majority shareholder in regards to executive decisions, but the officers decide things democratically yet invisibly. As a normal guild member, I see nothing of this except the occasional important announcement stickied in the forums, or the even more occasional asshat being removed from the guild.
I would say that the only real hierarchy we have is that of raiding - ie JP, but even then it's only used to determine preference for 'vet-heavy' groups and for light-hearted good-natured overly-hyphenated ball-busting
Jolly good, chap. That's a spot-on analysis.
Originally Posted by Lyta
I've been trying to concentrate on studying for my Proof Methods test tomorrow, and all I can think of is your hotness, radiating out from the pixels on my monitor, seared straight into my neurons.
Originally Posted by gijebus,January 16th, 2006 @ 1:06AM
Any guild is only limited to the amount of bullshit in gchat, so I crap a lot in chat to remind everyone that the next person they invite could be as bad as me.
That's my specialty, you amateur. :angry:
(insert rejuvenating gem link here)
:laugh:
How can you help?
I can shoot things and then make my pet move toward them.
Everyone has covered our guild specifics well to this point, so I'll address your other initial question. Part of what determines an effective guild's size lies within the content of the game, itself. You don't need 80+ people for a solid FPS team in CS or many other shooters. A crew that size would generally limit your overall skill level, since you wouldn't be used to playing with everyone or (at best) you might as well be multiple smaller groups. As I've said before, you can generally have two types of guild in an MMO. You can have a hardcore crew who is intent on getting things done and games rabidly, or you can have a more casual crew of friends who enjoys themselves, but isn't up top of the heap in most cases. It becomes very difficult to walk the line, since there are so very many differences in the two playstyles that are somewhat exclusive to their nature.
Look at WoW. Blizzard has tried to gear this game toward what they term "the casual player", but the game does not effectively reward such players. It's accessable to the more casual person, but only the more devoted with a good deal of time to put in will see the higher end content and the gear that goes with it. A casual guild isn't going to be tossing through AQ40 for several months. Chances are that most of those sort of guilds will never see the far endgame future content before the game shuts down. If you truly want to be casual, you'll have to miss out on some things. If you approach it hardcore, it becomes a job. You'll see everything first, but you'll never really get to "stop and smell the roses" in the gaming sense, because everything you do ingame will be predetermined toward guild benefit and goals.
EJ managed to somehow prove one of the exceptions to that general gaming rule. In all my gaming, I've never been around a group of people who managed both sides of the coin so very well. I chalk it up to the good leadership and generally low asshattery level due to our common background and attitude that others mentioned. All of my previous guilds in games have fallen into the "cut-throat serious" category where we'd boot people for relatively piddly things if they hurt our efficiency even a tiny bit. EJ comes as close to a level of raiding quality as those guilds as I suspect you can get among a group of more casually oriented gamers.
The type of guild you intend to build determines its size as much as the game content, itself. If you want to have a guild that's "just right", you have to base that numerical total on the ingame content. How many do you absolutely have to have if you want to be hardcore about it? That's the number you want, and no more. A hardcore guild doesn't have to recruit, so you never have to worry too much about being undermanned. If they suddenly lose some people, all they have to do is mention they're looking for new talent and people storm out of the woodwork in hopes of getting a chance with them. Those folks are usually so tickled to have gotten the chance to join you that they'll do anything and work exceptionally hard for their right to stay. They know you could boot and replace them any instant, so they tend to bust it for you to prove themselves.
If you're building a casual guild, the question instead is "how many people can we realistically maintain in a somewhat ordered fashion?". That obviously allows for larger groups and different play dynamics, but causes a number of complex social issues to spring up on the content that people want to do the most. You're running more of a social club for gamers in that case than you are a raiding guild. It's the difference between PGA tour golf and country club golf. Sure, you can play at Pebble Beach if you're a casual golfer with the proper cash, but only the most devoted and seasoned pros will make the big bucks in a tourney there.
Games in the past have tended toward more "world-boss" oriented builds where you never once had to leave out a single person that was interested in raiding something due to instance limitations. In games of those sorts, the finite limit for guild size falls in more like EJ, where your main concern is that everyone gets along well and it's big enough to do the things you want without being too huge to manage well. You could go with a bit larger crew in a game like that and not worry too much, so long as you had a loot system in place assuring your main core of raiders would get their gear before anyone else, to keep you strong and mobile.
In a game like this, the content to this point has been geared almost entirely toward core groups of ~40-60. You only tend to hurt on raidboss notification and mobilization with a group that size, so it's a pretty good number to shoot for in terms of efficiency, should you have people that are always available at the same hours. It gives you a tight network of people who are used to each other and generally limits the guild-busting drama, since you all need each other and everyone gears up fast. Anything larger gives you a better network at the cost of either spreading loot out across a larger number of people, or limiting loot access to certain individuals for a while. It goes without saying that the more people you have, the larger the potential for personality clashes and loot oriented disasters.
I think the "perfect" guildsize for WoW is a bit smaller than us, really. We manage, because we are all similar in nature. Most of us don't just play the game together, we play other games or hang out IRL. I have my doubts that a guild this size would be as stable as ours is in a game with size-limited content if we weren't mostly pretty good friends outside of the game, already.
I don't think guild size is something set in stone. If you have 200 mature people that get along, then your guild would probably feel like a small, tight knit community. On the flipside, if you have 30 people that don't see eye to eye on anything, your guild will probably feel loose and lax with regards to anything in the game.
but even if all those 200 members feel like buds but you cant fit some into your plans for a long enough period of time you start to lose those members. The biggest issue with 200 members is getting all of them included. 45-50 member guilds are much easier to manage that way.
The last guild I was in I kind of secluded myself from them. Myself and a few friends (originally from General Mayhem, started our own guild) joined theirs and, well, I wasn't a huge fan. It seemed impersonal and just a giant 40 man "we want epix l0l" fest. I didn't like it terribly much.
Edit- So we created our Alliance characters on Mal'Ganis so we could say dick and fart jokes in guild chat.
Originally Posted by Bad Luck,January 20th, 2006 @ 7:51PM
EJ members are quite fond of dick and fart jokes.
In order to make you feel welcome, we felt it necessary to talk of something you were interested in.
Originally Posted by Lyta
I've been trying to concentrate on studying for my Proof Methods test tomorrow, and all I can think of is your hotness, radiating out from the pixels on my monitor, seared straight into my neurons.