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Old 01/17/06, 1:37 PM   #16
Torael_7
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Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by phyra,January 17th, 2006 @ 12:43PM
Hyzenthlei's formulas are completely empirically derived and since the actual item calculations are approximate and round by integers, the numbers are very messy.

You can check some calculations being done on actual items by adding '&hyz=1', as in http://www.thottbot.com/?i=40573&hyz=1

<snip>
Thanks, this is what I was looking for.


On that note, fuck you blizzard for valuing dodge almost as highly as crit. :angry:

<edit> Wait, explain this bit. Does this just mean you can set a baseline of 100% as a head/chest/leg/2h piece, and the rest has the given % value worth of stats? Just double checking.
Originally Posted by phyra,January 17th, 2006 @ 12:43PM
Relative amounts of stats given to each slot type of equal iLvl:
7/7 – head, chest, legs, two-hand
5/7 – shoulder, waist, feet, hands
4/7 – neck, wrist, finger, one-hand, back
2/7 – ranged
? – trinket

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Old 01/17/06, 1:47 PM   #17
phyra
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Originally Posted by Torael_7,January 17th, 2006 @ 1:37PM
<edit> Wait, explain this bit. Does this just mean you can set a baseline of 100% as a head/chest/leg/2h piece, and the rest has the given % value worth of stats? Just double checking.
Yup. Those values were from another post in the thread, but I think I came up with something similar myself.

Oh, also, here's the relative armor values on the different slots:

Wrist 7
Waist 9
Hands 10
Feet 11
Shoulder 12
Head 13
Legs 14
Chest 16

But I didn't find the armor values interesting so I didn't bother with the rest of those formulas involved.

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Old 01/17/06, 2:02 PM   #18
Kaubel
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So 1MP/5 sec = 2.5 points of spirit in stat value. In application though, is it that simple? I keep forgetting how we equate the two.

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Old 01/17/06, 2:09 PM   #19
phyra
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Originally Posted by Kaubel,January 17th, 2006 @ 2:02PM
So 1MP/5 sec = 2.5 points of spirit in stat value. In application though, is it that simple? I keep forgetting how we equate the two.
Yup, it's simple as that when thinking about interchanging individual stats. The convluted parts come when you look at items with a combination of stats, or items across slots/rarities/iLvls.

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Old 01/17/06, 2:12 PM   #20
♦ Praetorian
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4 spirit = 1 mana/tick = 2.5 mana/5

When the 5-second rule is not in effect, 1.6 spirit is equal to 1 mana/5.

But that's nothing earthshattering. Of course spirit is better when you aren't casting.

When you have the 5-second rule in effect, for a shaman or paladin, 1 mana/5 is worth infinite spirit.

For a priest or druid with 3-piece tier 2 and mana regen talents (30% total regen), 1 mana/5 is worth 5.33 spirit.

Choosing between the two depends on personal preference, how you heal, and your own estimation of how often you are getting full spirit ticks during situations that matter. The more frequently you're getting full ticks, the closer to 1.6:1 your personal valuation should be. The less frequently, the closer to 5.33:1 it should be.

Personally, I use 2.5:1 as my mental yardstick and it works well enough.

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Old 01/17/06, 2:20 PM   #21
• Wodin
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Note that spirit is even better for a PvE specced mage(the typical 28/23 arc/frost build) since they get 45% incombat regen.

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Old 01/17/06, 2:23 PM   #22
♦ Praetorian
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Originally Posted by Wodin,January 17th, 2006 @ 2:20PM
Note that spirit is even better for a PvE specced mage(the typical 28/23 arc/frost build) since they get 45% incombat regen.
That's nonsense everybody knows +damage is the only stat that matters.

Edit: Serious reply -- yes, for a mage with 45% regen 1 mana/5 is equal to a mere 3.56 spirit while chaincasting. This would seem to suggest that spirit is best for mages relative to mana/5.

That would be wrong, however, because mages spend far, far, far more time affected by the 5-second-rule than do any healers (except perhaps Flash-spamming paladins). So even though the mage spectrum only ranges from 1.6 to 3.56 instead of 1.6 to 5.33, mages are going to fall much farther along that spectrum in practical use.

The only complicating factor is Evoc. Factoring that in is tricky.

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Old 01/17/06, 3:00 PM   #23
Rumor
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And clearcasting procs that happen in a row to boot.

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Old 01/17/06, 3:22 PM   #24
Fjord
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I'm pretty sure only shamans get 100% regen through clearcasting.

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Old 01/17/06, 3:23 PM   #25
♦ Praetorian
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Originally Posted by Fjord,January 17th, 2006 @ 3:22PM
I'm pretty sure only shamans get 100% regen through clearcasting.
Why? Generally if a spell costs 0 mana it doesn't trigger the 5-second rule, regardless of class.

Hence the brokenness of Spirit of Aquamentas and Choker of Enlightenment, back in the day.

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Old 01/18/06, 2:47 PM   #26
 Hamlet
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That's nonsense everybody knows +damage is the only stat that matters.
Actually, I consider this a perfectly serious reply regarding Mage gear choice. At least, it's what need to be beaten in to the head of 95% of Mages.

You're right about MP5 for mages. Since we never stop casting anyway, MP5 is more effective than spirit, so the value of our 45% regen factor is dubious (and when we do want to regen, we just ask for a JoW :P ). Spirit really exists to beef up Evocation.

The only complicating factor is Evoc.Â* Factoring that in is tricky.
Not really. 1 Spi generates 15 mana during an Evocation. In those rare fights where Mage mana is a factor, we're almost certainly Evocating, so Spi is strictly greater than Int. You only need enough Int so you don't start have mana issues in trash situations (which is just annoying).

In 2-minute fight (no time for Evocation to be useful):
1 Int gives 15 mana
1 Spi gives 6.75 mana
.4 MP5 gives 9.6 mana

In a 6-minute fight:
1 Int gives 15 mana
1 Spi gives 35.25 mana
.4 MP5 gives 28.8 mana

In a 10-minute fight:
1 Int gives 15 mana
1 Spi gives 48.75 mana
.4 MP5 gives 48 mana


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Old 01/18/06, 3:06 PM   #27
♦ Praetorian
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Originally Posted by Arawethion,January 18th, 2006 @ 2:47PM
Actually, I consider this a perfectly serious reply regarding Mage gear choice. At least, it's what need to be beaten in to the head of 95% of Mages.

You're right about MP5 for mages. Since we never stop casting anyway, MP5 is more effective than spirit, so the value of our 45% regen factor is dubious (and when we do want to regen, we just ask for a JoW :P ). Spirit really exists to beef up Evocation.
Sorry Alliance mages don't count. :P

Mana matters a fair bit more for Horde, without JoW and, even with Tranquil Air, in situations where aggro concerns restrict you to chaincasting Arcane Missiles with Subtlety. There, pure damage builds end up lagging far behind well-rounded builds with ample mana regen.

Also, is it really true that each volley of AM now can independently proc JoW? That's so silly.

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Old 01/18/06, 3:17 PM   #28
Lord BEEF
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Originally Posted by Fjord,January 17th, 2006 @ 2:22PM
I'm pretty sure only shamans get 100% regen through clearcasting.
Any time a spell costs zero mana it doesn't break your spirit regen.

Clearcasting definitely works the same for mages and druids as it does for shamans

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Old 01/18/06, 3:30 PM   #29
 Hamlet
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There are still some fights where I swap in a bit of MP5 gear. In truth, Mage gear tends to make incredibly little difference to raid performace.

Also, is it really true that each volley of AM now can independently proc JoW? That's so silly.
It is (although it also means that each volley of AM uses up a ZHC charge, which is really annoying). It's not nearly as silly as before, when you could stack all 3 different ranks of JoW.


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Old 01/18/06, 3:37 PM   #30
hamlet_the_lesser
King Hippo
 
Shaman
 
Sargeras
either way that mana regen is insane. Yep MTT is definately equal to JOW.


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