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Old 04/11/09, 2:58 AM   #16
DonGuapo
Von Kaiser
 
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Human Paladin
 
Tichondrius
For Retribution:

Buffs:
Attack Power: Very easy to pick up with plenty of free talent points.
Damage %: Next patch it will be 40 yards, which should help buff ranged players (those that have to be elsewere obviously lose out on it). Free talent points means its no issue to get.
Haste %: Next patch it will be 40 yards, which should help buff ranged players (those that have to be elsewere obviously lose out on it). Also again, plenty of free talent points to spend here.
Replenishment: Replenishment will be up easily with no issues other a minor detail with the possibility of resist if under capped (not likely next patch).

Debuffs:
Crit Chance: no issue ever. The only way for it to fall off for a brief moment would require two resists on judgement (unlikely).
Judgements: Much easier time keeping these up than a holy paladin.

Overall, I see no dps costs for keeping any of these benefits up.

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Old 04/11/09, 6:33 AM   #17
ttyl
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Destromath
Originally Posted by Copernicus View Post
I bring up Warlocks again because I've been told that their top individual DPS spec won't get Improved Shadow Bolt or Demonic Pact -- but I still want to work in a Demonology Warlock in for the raid DPS boost of Demonic Pact (which adds in the DPS boost of Searing Totem for Shaman).
Totem of Wrath also gives +3% crit chance on enemies, so you would need a Ret Paladin applying Heart of the Crusader before you could completely forget about ToW. I agree with every conclusion except this one:
Melee Hit Chance: Probably Hunter (Moonkin glyph removes the hit reduction but may not be required in 3.1)
Losing Serpent Sting vs. +30% damage on Insect Swarm. Need specific numbers, I guess.

Last edited by ttyl : 04/11/09 at 6:43 AM.

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Old 04/11/09, 9:01 AM   #18
Elimbras
Don Flamenco
 
Dwarf Priest
 
Eitrigg (EU)
It is currently painful for hunters to maintain Scorpid debuff (hit reduction for boss).
The reason is that most builds requires the serpent sting.

MM definitely will be hurt a lot, because of Chimera Shot.
BM uses it, because of the sustained shot glyph, giving +10% of damage to sustained shot (their main attack) if the serpent dot is on the target. So, using scorpid instead is, let's say, around 3% dps loss (that's a pure guess, taking yellow damage as one third of total damage. More data are needed).
For the current build, SV uses it, for the Lock and Load procs. They can do without it, but that's a loss again, because of the procs you don't gain, and because of the glyph for sustained shots.

It may be best for hunters to apply the debuff. But answer is not so clear for me, so more numbers are needed.
One advantage of hunters is that they can apply it for the "critical" part of the fights, and use serpent other time if they want.

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Old 04/11/09, 9:16 AM   #19
Boevis
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Tauren Druid
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by Copernicus View Post
Yeah, that makes more sense. There are two basic ways to look at this-

1. Start by adding a 25th person to a 25-man raid. All other buffs are accounted for, so they are free to maximize their DPS/tanking/threat/healing. Then ask that person to keep up a buff or debuff - what's the DPS cost in terms of talents, rotations, and/or glyphs needed?

2. A certain buff gives a larger DPS boost to the raid then the cost to the buffing class due to the mechanics behind it (Demonic Pact and Enhancing Totems will be the two obvious examples here). Which buffs are there that act in this way, and what is the individual cost to using them?
Bleed Damage Increase
* Cat Druid: 30% Swipe damage or 9% FB damage from spec change, ~125 single target DPS
* Bear Druid: Required Threat Ability
* Arms Warrior: 2 talent points = 5 rage off execute or Blood Frenzy if already applied by a Rogue (likely with 3.1 changes) or various utility

5% Melee Crit
* Cat Druid: No other talents to potentially increase DPS earlier in tree, required to get further.
* Bear Druid: Required to get to Mangle
* Fury Warrior: 1 talent point = 3 rage off execute

frmorrison: I had missed the 3.1 selfishness of UR for Enh Shamans, good call. But damnit, now I have to recruit another one. I also fail to see how doubling the effect of Retribution Aura (or whatever aura he's using) with Aura Mastery doesn't qualify as a worthwhile raid Buff. Certainly Divine Sacrifice and Divine Guardian provide excellent utility, but my current assumption is that Protection Paladins are the best source of this buff given the additional desire for Blessing of Sanctuary. Perhaps taking a Prot Paladin is not worth gaining reliable 3% damage reduction on everyone, but I'm not about to start a "who makes the best tank" debate.

theothersteve, and others: The Attack Speed slow inevitably comes down to if there's a Frost DPS DK in raid or not, the opportunity cost of any other DPS class applying it is too high, though I am being lead to understand that Frost DPS is not going to be viable anymore. The end result is that every tank spec should have the ability to apply the debuff except in cases like S+3 with 3 tank where a DK or Warrior "off tanking" is going to be the better source of the debuff than a druid or paladin (this was the basis of my decision, which was wrong), the majority of the time, when you need more than 1 tank, they are not going to be able to provide debuffs for each other reliably. My main point was that my current view of maximizing buffs insists on having Paladins and Warriors to tank for their unique buffs (technically Sunder isn't unique, but I doubt any other tank makes it worth -Armor (major) coming from a DPS class).

Ttyl: Looking at top WMO's on Patchwerk, Serpent Sting is 3%-4% Hunter DPS, IS is 4%-6% Moonkin DPS, so a 30% increase to IS is the lesser of the 2. Moonkin glyph should look for another Glyph I guess (Glyph of Focus is likely a higher DPS glyph anyway when the extra range isn't needed)

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Old 04/11/09, 12:29 PM   #20
Doyne
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Mage
 
Arygos
Originally Posted by Copernicus View Post
Yeah, that makes more sense. There are two basic ways to look at this-

1. Start by adding a 25th person to a 25-man raid. All other buffs are accounted for, so they are free to maximize their DPS/tanking/threat/healing. Then ask that person to keep up a buff or debuff - what's the DPS cost in terms of talents, rotations, and/or glyphs needed?

2. A certain buff gives a larger DPS boost to the raid then the cost to the buffing class due to the mechanics behind it (Demonic Pact and Enhancing Totems will be the two obvious examples here). Which buffs are there that act in this way, and what is the individual cost to using them?


For mages, I guess, my examples would be like this-

Spell Crit Chance: - Optimal option -- Demonology Warlock
* Fire Mage - Maintaining the debuff - 1.2% DPS loss. Glyphing for the debuff - an additional 3.2% DPS loss*
* Frost Mage - Maintaining the debuff - ?? DPS loss.

Replenishment: - Optimal options -- Survival Hunter, Destruction Warlock, Shadow Priest, Retribution Paladin
* Frost Mage - Maintaining the debuff - ?? DPS loss. Also does not provide 100% Replenishment uptime.

---

I'd need to double check the figures for Frost, as I'm not too sure if the model I'm using is accurate. I think the numbers for a Fire Mage are accurate, but I'm not 100% sure.
Frost mages won't have a DPS loss strictly due to maintaining the debuff (or Replinishment) since it is applied with our No. 1 spell (Frostbolt). The only time we would not be doing something that maintains both the debuff and replinishment is if we are using a Fireball from a Brain Freeze, Ice Lancing on a Fingers of Frost (keeps the debuff running, but not replinshment) or when we have to be highly mobile due to some fight mechanic.

Also, after 3.1, you will have to take into consideration that Fire or Frost mages will apply 5%.

Improved Scorch: Increased critical strike chance is now 1%, down from 2% per application of the Improved Scorch effect. In addition, the critical strike chance of Scorch, Fireball, and Frostfire Bolt is increased by 1/2/3%.

Winter's Chill: Increased critical strike chance is now 1%, down from 2% per application of Winter's Chill. In addition, the critical strike chance of Frostbolt is increased by 1/2/3%.
Edit: corrected a stupid mistake I made.

Last edited by Doyne : 04/11/09 at 5:12 PM.

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Old 04/11/09, 4:20 PM   #21
catch22atplay
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Proudmoore
As for a Fury warrior. For a dps gain in 25 mans you spec out of booming voice and Commanding presence. Since in 10 mans you loose Might you must spec back into Booming voice and Commanding presence. So no it's not really a loss to dps per say. It's more you must spec this way to not loose as much dps. Not only does it benefit the individual Fury warrior's dps but it helps the other physical dps classes as well. So there really isn't a choice here. However if you stacked Paladins or added an Arms warrior to the 10 man then it wouldn't be needed as they would provide the buff.

Last edited by catch22atplay : 04/11/09 at 4:27 PM.

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Old 04/11/09, 4:53 PM   #22
Capstone
Piston Honda
 
Human Paladin
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by Boevis View Post
frmorrison: I had missed the 3.1 selfishness of UR for Enh Shamans, good call. But damnit, now I have to recruit another one. I also fail to see how doubling the effect of Retribution Aura (or whatever aura he's using) with Aura Mastery doesn't qualify as a worthwhile raid Buff. Certainly Divine Sacrifice and Divine Guardian provide excellent utility, but my current assumption is that Protection Paladins are the best source of this buff given the additional desire for Blessing of Sanctuary.


Aura Mastery only doubles the base effect of the Aura for a few seconds every two minutes. In the case of Retribution Aura, enemies would take 200 holy damage for attacking a PC instead of 100. Not exactly earthshaking. It's not going to be a core talent for any spec of paladin.

Originally Posted by Doyne View Post
Also, after 3.1, you will have to take into consideration that Fire mages will apply 5% and Frost mages will apply the other 5%.
Winter's Chill and Improved Scorch do not stack, before or after 3.1.

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Old 04/11/09, 8:47 PM   #23
Orrion
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Arathor
Yea, Enhancement are going to be spec'ing UR regardless of anything else, since we'll get 9 Expertise from doing so. Nobody will pass that up. It makes 10% atk power a non-issue, really. Marks Hunters, Blood DKs and Enhance Shaman automatically pick up their version of the this buff - the first because it's 1 talent point and the latters because of personal benefit.

20% melee haste is a little more of an issue - If you have a Frost DK, I believe they usually pick up the talent. It requires they Icy Touch, though, and has talent prereqs, but they gain 5% haste from the talent itself. Enhancement puts 2 points into Imp. Windfury for 4% haste and no benefit. Frost DK would be the better choice, imo, given the option.

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Old 04/13/09, 8:11 AM   #24
Erdluf
Great Tiger
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Echo Isles
Moonkin:

E&M: 13% Spell damage is free (single target), but may not be up until 10s into fight depending on opening sequence.

IFF: Minor armor debuff and 3% spell hit. In 3.1 is 1 GCD every 5 minutes (per target). In 3.09 it is every 40s (3% DPS loss).

Moonkin Form: 3% Haste and 5% crit. Passive.

Insect Swarm: 3% miss debuff. Usually 'kin Glyph out of this for extra DPS. Losing the glyph is about a 1% to 1.5% DPS loss. Usually uptime for IS is around 70%. Requiring 100% uptime would hurt DPS by a little (I'd guess 0.5% to 1.5%).

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Old 04/13/09, 6:40 PM   #25
Copernicus
Bald Bull
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by Doyne
Frost mages won't have a DPS loss strictly due to maintaining the debuff (or Replinishment) since it is applied with our No. 1 spell (Frostbolt). The only time we would not be doing something that maintains both the debuff and replinishment is if we are using a Fireball from a Brain Freeze, Ice Lancing on a Fingers of Frost (keeps the debuff running, but not replinshment) or when we have to be highly mobile due to some fight mechanic.
The main problem with Frost Mages is that they do less DPS than the other basic mage specs. If the raid needs Replenishment, than a mage should respec to get the ability. But it's not the optimal choice for bringing the buff.

------

Originally Posted by Erdluf
IFF: Minor armor debuff and 3% spell hit. In 3.1 is 1 GCD every 5 minutes (per target). In 3.09 it is every 40s (3% DPS loss).
For IFF, do Moonkin have other options to take with their talents? The main question is - if you had the option to spec out of IFF because the debuffs were provided by a Feral Druid Tank and a Shadow Priest, would you do so for a different talent?

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Old 04/14/09, 2:33 AM   #26
charriu
Piston Honda
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Gorgonnash (EU)
Originally Posted by Copernicus View Post
For IFF, do Moonkin have other options to take with their talents? The main question is - if you had the option to spec out of IFF because the debuffs were provided by a Feral Druid Tank and a Shadow Priest, would you do so for a different talent?
The talent provides 3% crit on targets affected with ANY faerie fire, so probably no.

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Old 04/14/09, 4:01 AM   #27
Boevis
Bald Bull
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Lightbringer
So long as the raid contains a properly specced Spriest, there's no reason for a Moonkin to cast Faerie Fire (in fact, it becomes detrimental if you're also using a Feral Tank). Taking the iFF talent is a DPS boost (but is likely one of the first dropped to gain mana regen), casting it is what causes the DPS loss.

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Old 04/15/09, 1:11 AM   #28
Prinsesa
Bald Bull
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Echo Isles
Originally Posted by Boevis View Post
So long as the raid contains a properly specced Spriest, there's no reason for a Moonkin to cast Faerie Fire (in fact, it becomes detrimental if you're also using a Feral Tank). Taking the iFF talent is a DPS boost (but is likely one of the first dropped to gain mana regen), casting it is what causes the DPS loss.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there was a thread in the tanking forums a while back confirming that Feral Faerie Fire can be applied to a mob regardless of the presence of Misery or IFF debuffs, assuming the detriment you're referring to is a Bear tank being unable to access FFF's threat.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

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Old 04/15/09, 2:39 AM   #29
tasha
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Priest
 
Talnivarr (EU)
Some minor updates...

Damage % Buff
-> BM Hunters can keep it up as long as their pet is alive and attacking something.

Damage Reduction % Buff
-> In 3.1, Discipline priests can easily keep it up on the whole raid.

Armor (major) Debuff
Armor (minor) Debuff

-> I think there are Hunters' pets who can do those as well (BM only though). Really case-specific anyway.

Armor % Buff
-> It seems Holy Priests will be reluctant to take this talent now that their tank healing efficiency is limited. Discipline Priests will have it.

Melee Haste Buff
-> DKs need to spend 6 talent points for only 5% haste as personal benefit. A frost dps DK will do it (to go up the tree), but a Frost tank has much better options for those talent points. An enhancement shaman needs 2 points.

Attack Power Buff
-> A Holy paladin can take the 2 improved points for BoM instead of 2 seconds less on judgments' cd.

Shamans' mana spring totem is now raid wide and doesn't stack with BoW. (Improved totem is resto spec).

Last edited by tasha : 04/15/09 at 2:51 AM.

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Old 04/15/09, 6:17 AM   #30
Tharia
Piston Honda
 
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Tauren Paladin
 
Mal'Ganis (EU)
Originally Posted by tasha View Post

Armor (major) Debuff
Armor (minor) Debuff

-> I think there are Hunters' pets who can do those as well (BM only though). Really case-specific anyway.
Major is from worms which are exotic pets, so BM only. They lose quite a lot of dps from it as it is not a ferocity pet, didn't check the exact numbers.
Minor is from wasps which can be used by every hunter, loss of about 150 dps when used instead of a wolf according to the spreadsheet.

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